Precision Rifle World Championships

[John MH]

Well I've got a slightly better insight into what the IPRF is, or was, meant to be about.

As a fledgling 'International' Federation I don't believe they wish to become involved in 'National' issues and would much prefer the 'Nations' to sort themselves out whilst the Nation adopts the IPRF 'Rules & Regulations' for the conduct of matches, following the IPRF 'General Precision Rifle Rules', which whilst about shooting are generally sensible if not a little convoluted. 

The problem in GB and, with the GBPRA in particular, is that, (whilst it does not say in its 'Final Draft Constitution') the IPRF website indicated in its narrative, as an Affilated Member:

'Affiliated Members are organizations that have joined IPRF with the intent of forming a democratically constituted Precision Rifle organization within their countries. Such organizations have exclusive rights as a Member Nation for 2 years while they constitute their organizations.'

The problem this may pose is that the GBPRA, as currently constituted, is unlikely to get any traction in GB as its launch and the opaque 'Executive Committee' structure did not go down well and it cannot in anyway be seen to be, or claim, to be 'representative' of the vast majority of GB PR shooters. The GBPRA nominated itself, on day one of the formation of the IPRF, as the representative of GB shooters rather sowing a seed, presenting a brief, listening to the 'community', gauging support and then making its move. In hindsight I think they can probably now see that was a mistake; it could be rectified, we wait and see.

'Monetising' PR Shooting in the GB is not going to work as PR is too small and too niche, the 'Precision Rifle Series' works in the USA as shooting sports are several orders of magnitude bigger than here. The PRS also has its problems and those stem from the 'Monetising' of it, individual sponsorship of 'Professional' shooters, high value prizes for winning and people doing and running 'PR' for a living, or, for what they can get for free from 'industry' sponsors; all of those things can and has lead to questionable 'gamey' behaviours, something that 'amateur' pursuits need like a hole in the head.

I've started a Facebook Page to gauge interest in the formation of a 'body' (club/association/federation) in GB for Precision Rifle Shooters and its got a reasonable amount of support so far but it has to be recognised that 'social media' can be an odd thing as on some pages its not clear who is 'owns and administers' (this means the ability to block posters and delete posts that don't suit their purpose) the pages, I've been up front about the page I set up as I have nothing to hide.

It will be interesting to see how things develop.

Note also, the 'Final Draft' of the Constitution which has been 'published' (if its a draft then best not to publish it) on the IPRF website does state that the IPRF is 'legally registered as a Nonprofit Organisation under the name: “International Precision Rifle Federation’; it is not registered, yet.

[ds1]

John, my post were regarding IPRF as obviously I am Czech based. However am surprised to find that the IPRF is seemingly not registered as a charity or other business. Also I see the same issues here and in the U.K. - where’s the venues? There seem only one or two ranges in either country capable of handling the 150 rounds over 2 days ( presumably weekends) over 12-15 stages. In practice you would have to run 3 or 4 stages simultaneously to get say  60 shooters through the COF. I don’t see the attraction for a range to do it. For example with my range I hire it to state police - they carry the can of there is an accident or other issue. If I run a course civi or local police then it’s my head on the block. I’m not going to let some else RCO on my range for which I am ultimately responsible particularly when the governing body is not registered. 

I must admit IPSC pistol/ PCC is big money here however shooting venues can be much smaller than a rifle range. 

I am struggling to understand  the viability of it unless someone happens to own a suitable range and wants to do it. ......there doesn’t seem much point in forming an organisation with no where to run the COF however.

[No i deer]

There can't be many private venues available that has approved range templates for this type of shooting.

[John MH]

3 minutes ago, No i deer said:

There can't be many private venues available that has approved range templates for this type of shooting.

There aren’t.

[Popsbengo]

7 minutes ago, No i deer said:

There can't be many private venues available that has approved range templates for this type of shooting.

could this be part of the "up yours" motivation to try to take control away from our friends in the North?

[No i deer]

Then likely too have to be a military playground like Salisbury plain. 

A shooting mate ran the shoot for the FCSA on the javelin range on the plain at Salisbury and just taking responsibility for the range and handing it back was a major palava.

He put alot of time and effort into making it happen as did the other people involved in helping run the FCSA..

[No i deer]

45 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

could this be part of the "up yours" motivation to try to take control away from our friends in the North?

Getting places to hold these events will likely to be the main stumbling block in getting up and running..

There seems to be alot of intrest in this type of shooting so it would be good to see it take off..

I'd have ago myself if I didn't have to travel too far to participate.. 

[Scotch_egg]

The requirements are clearly setup for the states. 
 

Current range templates are too narrow to allow so many stages to be run safely at the same time with such wide arcs of fire that go hand in hand with making the stage a challenge. 

[No i deer]

20 minutes ago, Scotch_egg said:

The requirements are clearly setup for the states. 
 

Current range templates are too narrow to allow so many stages to be run safely at the same time with such wide arcs of fire that go hand in hand with making the stage a challenge. 

Ive shot at the javelin shoot and on F range at Sennybridge and the arcs of fire are very narrow but that was probaly down to being able to use 338's and 50 cal type calibres..

Military venues i imagine will be by far the best options for this type of shooting as these would have all the range templates already in place but would need modifying for this type of shooting and alot of planning and persuading to get the go head..

It could take years..!!

 

[John MH]

Wait and see, hopefully not years.

[lapua]

Or just do it on farmland with open tickets and stop shooting when the girl guides sit down for a picnic in front of the targets.

[Ronin]

Using field firing ranges will be very difficult to arrange as Landmark have steadily decreased civilian access to ranges for several years 

Plus resetting any broken targetry presents problems on such ranges (Otterburn, Warcop te al would be perfect but I very much doubt either would allow such events or even allow them to be considered)

The civilian (private ranges) available are limited in number, though offer excellent, proven facilities for the sport 

We need the owners of these ranges to be on board with any “governing organisation”

Gardner Guns 

Orion 

WMS?

RMPRA 

all have suitable ranges available I understand 

There will be other smaller venues (such as the Mendip Quarry area) and club ranges (such as Diggle) who may be able to alter their working practice to accommodate such events 

Its a shame that the venue at Dartmoor is no longer in use

The participants of the events organised and those people thinking about joining in need to be given open and transparent detail so they may democratically vote to have an organisation represent them 

They should not be steered like lemmings or sheep towards the cliff face and “told” by a few that this is the only way forwards

I suggest any who read this thread look at the wording of the rules of the draft/final draft: maybe it will change - final draft for the newly founded   “IPRF” 

Does this sit with what you want from your sport 

I’d also suggest you look on social media for the proposed Precision Rifle Shooting GB page and consider if this is a better way forward.

 

 

 

 

[brown dog]

With three or 4 going private concerns cracking along quite happily;  I'm a little bemused why an unconnected admin layer is needed at all. 🤔

[srvet]

1 hour ago, brown dog said:

With three or 4 going private concerns cracking along quite happily;  I'm a little bemused why an unconnected admin layer is needed at all. 🤔

To act as a go between where two main players had a big falling out and to protect the competitors from one organiser, who seems to aim for nothing short of national domination of the sport displaying distinctly dubious ethics with regards to conducting business, charging competitors and running a fair competition, then taking the huff (repeatedly) when anyone points this out (often in a very humorous manner). 
Is it needed? I can only answer ... do BAIRS s**t in the woods?? .... did you see what I did there!!🤣

[ds1]

BD, that was my point but as a small range owner it’s always going to be a decision of income vs pain-in-assery. In general police are the best clients- they always pay show or no show,  look after themselves and clean up afterwards. Contrast that to some of the past petty issues in PRS type threads here like ranges not having the desired plates or target systems.

There is enough admin hassle with the day to day running of a range that the thought of dealing with an international organisation is not very appealing. Do some fag-packet maths for PRS say 60 shooters @ £150 per weekend =£7500. If (big if) you get £4K out of it as a range and deduct target cost, tax, food and income form whoever else you could have had on the range then you might be left with £2k for the weekend. Is it enough?....... depends on which other user groups you are not giving priority to (it will likely be competing civi groups though as police etc only hire during weekday work hours). 

To deal with an international organisation directly you can see how much crap they expect..... if you held 10 matches per year that’s an extra £20k, minus tax, marketing, paying subs to an international body and having the phone ring every hour because someone left their tripod somewhere on the range and can you just go and find it. If you are a busy range with a staple of police and/or military users it not going to be worth the hassle.

One of the biggest advantages I see to having a ‘middleman’ between range and organising body is that the middleman can organise events at several venues (if they exist) and hopefully bring more clients from other venues / geographical areas. That said shooters are not the most nomadic of people and the middleman needs to understand that they are there to facilitate the smooth running of things ( admin) and not dictate to either shooters or ranges.......... then you get issues.

[Brushy]

For those who are interested in the Precision Rifle World Championship / IPRF, the following discussion between Scott Satterlee and Frank Galli on the Everyday Sniper Podcast might be of interest:

https://www.podbean.com/eu/pb-c6c9r-f99497

 

[John MH]

11 minutes ago, Brushy said:

For those who are interested in the Precision Rifle World Championship / IPRF, the following discussion between Scott Satterlee and Frank Galli on the Everyday Sniper Podcast might be of interest:

https://www.podbean.com/eu/pb-c6c9r-f99497

 

Listening now.

IPRF in theory sounds like a good idea problem is, has been, the execution here in the UK.

The characters involved in the UK appear to have alienated a significant number of potential supporters, whether deserved or not, that's where it sits now.

[Brushy]

As with all Franks podcasts it does wander off topic at times but it’s worth a listen 

[John MH]

The IPRF starts at 30 mins in.

[John MH]

Quote

'If a good idea comes along we are going to use it'

Maybe try to relaunch the GBPRA in an open and transparent manner, identify all of the 'Executive Committee' for starters and not just Tish.

By contrast the The Irish Precision Rifle Association (IEPRA) launch appears to have gone a lot better.

[John MH]

Worth listening from minute 48 on about settling 'grievances' 

https://www.podbean.com/eu/pb-c6c9r-f99497

It does sound like Scott Satterlee talks sense, we in GB appear to be experiencing what happened in the US in the early days of PR shooting.

IMHO the wrong, for lots of reasons, (identified) people are trying to run the GBPRA end of this endeavour. 

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, John MH said:

Worth listening from minute 48 on about settling 'grievances' 

https://www.podbean.com/eu/pb-c6c9r-f99497

It does sound like Scott Satterlee talks sense, we in GB appear to be experiencing what happened in the US in the early days of PR shooting.

IMHO the wrong, for lots of reasons, (identified) people are trying to run the GBPRA end of this endeavour. 

but aren't the 'wrong people' also involved in the IPRF ?

[terryh]

The core of what Frank and Scott are saying is pretty good, loop back to the original roots of the PR, none of the ‘barricade bench rest’ that is now the driver, learn from a stage not just figure of how to circumvent skill with mechanics ( love the ‘one bag’ concept).

They see a re-set is needed to ground the sport - and is was an excellent sport 10-20 years ago, event were friendly 

What appears to have happened in the UK is some people have become involved in the IPRF as if they represented the UK, which they do not ( by a long chalk) hence the (more than) slight unbridgeable being taken. IMHO We cannot hold the IPRF accountable for this I.e. detract from the IPRF’s aims.

He idea John has had, a unifying forum, would solve it. If the self appoint ‘emperor's do not come to the table then the assumptions being made would be correct- in GBPRA’s  eyes it’s their ball .

Time will tell.

[Brushy]

19 minutes ago, terryh said:

The core of what Frank and Scott are saying is pretty good, loop back to the original roots of the PR, none of the ‘barricade bench rest’ that is now the driver, learn from a stage not just figure of how to circumvent skill with mechanics ( love the ‘one bag’ concept).

They see a re-set is needed to ground the sport - and is was an excellent sport 10-20 years ago, event were friendly 

What appears to have happened in the UK is some people have become involved in the IPRF as if they represented the UK, which they do not ( by a long chalk) hence the (more than) slight unbridgeable being taken. IMHO We cannot hold the IPRF accountable for this I.e. detract from the IPRF’s aims.

He idea John has had, a unifying forum, would solve it. If the self appoint ‘emperor's do not come to the table then the assumptions being made would be correct- in GBPRA’s  eyes it’s their ball .

Time will tell.

Terry, as usual I agree with some of your points. 1 bag and no tripods for me is the way to go too but that a personal view. IMO it Reduces the kit wars and expenses for new shooters and levels the playing field.

However, I disagree with your comment about ‘self appointed emperors’. Tiff and co have got off their bums and done something and it could be awesome. Others could have done so but didn’t. They have done this off their own backs in an attempt to promote the sport and raise the game. I don’t think anyone (in this country) will ever get rich by taking on such a thing. conversely it is likely to be hugely time consuming and for very little reward. 

I am sure that the open forums will come but it is early days....and we all know Rome wasn’t build in a day. Indeed, after all this could the collisium of PR shooting

[Ronin]

Had the new organisation been announced in the UK an open and transparent manner then I wouldn’t take issue with it or those involved 

 

It hasn’t been 

 

 

Many people in the UK have prompted shooting sports without becoming self appointed “emperors” 

Vince Bottomley has done more to promote shooting (target) sports in the UK than perhaps anyone I can think of 

Mik Maksimovich works and has worked tirelessly in F class and NRA circles plus arranged multiple international events 

Andrew Venebles started steel plate comps in the UK with the “steel safari” comps 

David S in CZ has provided access to military precision competition to a whole heap of people who would otherwise not be able to experience such events 

There are many, many people who are worthy of praise in shooting circles 

None of the above have tried to monopolise, assume control or self promote  / dictate 

I respect and trust all of those mentioned above 

I believe an organisations representatives should be elected and done so democratically on merit 

The actions and manner in how the UK representatives have gone about this is wrong in my eyes and I don’t believe there is anything that can be done or said to rectify this other than stand down and have a proper elective process with a selection of candidates who can be considered on their own individual merit and abilities and without conflict of interest or hidden agenda treating shooters as cash cows