Brexit? A quick poll

[gbal]

Quotations are fine things.

 

Here is the Kennedy-Newton Law of semantic dynamics:

 

"For every opinion expressed without evidence,there is an exactly equal opposite opinion,which needs precisely the same amount of evidence."

 

Sometimes expessed as the EInstein Equation:

 

Rubbish= Rubbish Squared

 

gbal

[Brillo]

This is a quote from a really good friend of mine, whose opinions have, and still do, influence me a lot.:

 

To be or not to be?

Family and friends in Canada and the US must be wondering what all the fuss is about in the lead-up to the UK’s in/out referendum on EU membership. How did we get into this mess? With just a week to go, I find myself still undecided as to which way to vote. It’s not that the issues aren’t clear, for they are quite painfully so. But the ‘leave’ issues are mainly chalk, and the ‘remain’ issues are all cheese, and it’s quite impossible to compare one with the other. Both sides are using scare tactics, and arguments that they must know to be untrue; all the possible outcomes are bad.

The reasons for staying in the EU are mainly economic -things like foeign investment by companies who want access to Europe (Japanese car firms and so on), and UK access in general to the single (though manipulated, protected and highly inefficient) European market. There are other advantages too. Unfortunately the EU also is hell-bent on becoming a bureaucratic, undemocratic, expansionist super-state, coercing new members to join the single currency which enriches Germany and beggars the rest -that is how economies work when the option of devaluation is no longer available to a country. As regards EU administration, financial incompetence is so accepted that no-one seems to mind that the auditors have never once yet agreed to sign off the annual accounts. On the political front, ill-conceived overtures to Georgia and the Ukraine in the past couple of years have dangerously destabilised the whole Europe/Russia situation, and it’s pretty obvious why -from a Russian point of view, this was the Cuban missile crisis in reverse, and it was lunacy to ever get to this position. Plans for a European army a scary.

Reasons for a British exit are partly economic, for the Eurozone is a dead hand on the continental economies. In the last decade, France has grown by 3%, Germany by 6%, the UK (not in the Euro) by 8%, and the USA by 10%. A point rarely noticed is that the UK is largely free-market in its economic approach, whereas with the notable exception of Germany, most European countries, whether socialist or right-leaning, have a tradition of state interventionism. There is also a serious concern about sovereignty, for if a country doesn’t like its government, we can elect a different one. But it doesn’t work like that at a European level.

Undoubtedly the issue that currently raises the most concern is immigration. I am not personally against immigration per se; how could I be? -my wife is an immigrant, my son is an immigrant, I have been an immigrant myself. But the growth of the UK population from all causes, immigration top of the list, is a real worry. UK population is just short of 65 million (well, it was last year) and last year we had net immigration of another 1/3 million, about half of that from Europe. That’s a city the size of Coventry, Sunderland or Reading each year, every year. England is already the most densely populated country in Europe (we overtook the Netherlands about 18 months ago), and the pressure on infra-structure and services is enormous. The National Health Service is not coping, as evidenced by long waiting times and overspent budgets; housing is in short supply and a modest working-class terraced house in London can cost over £1 million. With the new minimum wage in the UK being more than 3 times the average wage in Romania, it is is very understandable that people wish to come here.

So a lot of people are going to vote ‘out’, and are asking ‘Why can’t we leave the EU, and have a simple trade agreement, like Norway?’ The answer of course is that the others won’t let us. Can anyone really imagine that you can piss off the 27 other nations, scare the crap out of the other EU leaders by creating a demand for referendums in their own countries, and rattle the cages of the comfortably ensconced bureaucrats in Brussels, while expecting that they are then going to make things easy for us, so we can demonstrate that things are better outside the EU than in? No, they are going to make it as difficult as possible, for as long as they can, just to teach us a lesson, and 'pour encourager les autres'.

So what’s going to happen? Whichever way it goes, It’s going to be messy, ill-tempered and painful. Things are too close to call at the moment, but I have predicted a ‘leave’ majority ever since Cameron came back with two-thirds of bugger-all from his futile attempt at renegotiations. They simply proved that the EU is unreformable, and abuses will continue as they are. Recent opinion polls suggest the leave lobby will win

Of course, it’s by no means sure that a ‘leave’ vote would secure our exit. To me, a likely scenario is that the referendum vote will be to leave, the government (or what is left of it) will prepare the appropriate legislation, and that Parliament then votes it down. That would provoke quite a constitutional crisis, quite apart from renewed calls from Scotland to quit the UK.

So with a week to go, with a heavy heart and against all my instincts, I am probably going to vote to remain in Europe. But a week is a long time in politics.

[brown dog]

Hmmmm.....I think there is a bit more that just a belief in human goodness,Matt.

 

The 1930s had plenty evidence-it's all in MeinKampf- and there was awareness-much appeasement was about avoiding another World War ! ,or at least in part.

I simply do not see any such evidence -either for a written manifesto of such vehement clarity,or build up of a power base on objectionable basis-I do see lots of positives,which do cost some money,muchh directed where it is needed. Could be a very elaborate sop,or con-but there seems no 'conspiracy'-with a quite different agenda-much more like say,the American break away from Britain,and then the Lincoln resistance to the confederacy- both aggregational,and seemingly non-evil !

 

I did alude to many in Europe who have had the totalitarian experience-which the UK has not had-and they are unlikely to want it again,or get 'caught out' by it.

But the main consideration,for me,is there simply is no evidence at all of a 'negative'totalitarian/fascist' or similar design-hard to see properly bent bananas as part of such a plan.Or the incorporation of so many cultures.

 

The EU may be a bit cumbersome (what administrationof that scale isn't,especially when in development? We see clamour for decentralising and loca decision making in UK too....some makes sense.

 

The failures to date-refugees currently/and emotively-the shame being the emotions are not all helping ones-should be compared with the mess there would be with zero cooperation in Europe- the EU was just notgeared up for the scale of Syrian refugees,added to by economic migrants (most want to work and be decent citizens of course-would that were true of all the 1.6 million britons who contribute but little at the moment. Not the main issue,though.

I'd be somewhat more concerned by the expansion of UKIP type attitudes-or the extreme right in Europe-very much in opposition/competition to the EU. That says to me,the EU does not share the extremists views.

 

So where is the proto fascist clues from the EU about it's real totalitarian agenda (and how does all of Europe miss them-except the radically opposed extreme right,who oppose EU.....??

Angela Merkel is no Trump (she might be a tad socialist).....if ,as Brexit claims,the bureaucrats are really faceless,we can hardly say they are closet nazis,anymore than secret tree huggers (being a bit green isn't too bad these days).

 

Nope,an evidence based approach does not seem to support the EU as totalitarian;ambitious yes,but so far nearly all in ways I'd call social democrat,with admirable intentions,a bit flawed in operationalising. Is the UK a model of supreme efficiency (that actually supported UK farmers nearly so well,overall etc -" The EU means a bit of red tape,but it's our life line,we didn't get that before" is hardly the most damning criticism I've heard from a farmer.

Are we behind Euro thought sometimes-yes. Could UK be a bit more progressive-sometimes.

 

Conspiracy theory might occasionally be right (though it has failed so far)-but when there is no evidence,can that really be claimed as especially good evidnce of a concealed conspiracy?

I can see-not fully understand,and certainly not agree- with those who don't take to good ideas that are not theirs,and who worse yet,cannot see the inadequates in their own back yard-"well,the road is full of holes ,but they are British holes."

I'm happy to have any reasonably working person fill them in.

 

So,what are the actual seeds of eventual European domination by the nasties (EU).

 

If I haven't seen them I'm blinkered,if they cannot be seen, I'm not paranoid.

 

Diagnose.please

 

 

(some neuroscientists have just claimed they can pick out superior footballers;so a test for blackshirs could be researched)

the football stuff is in this weeks 'the conversation' free download.

 

And I'm off to watch the Brown Shirts play. they are of course well disguised in true blue).

Bugger .Czechoslovakia just this moment 6.15 go two behind, deja vu-wish I had not joked about all this.

 

 

George,

 

Your failing assumption, massively failing assumption, is your repeated belief that only the extreme right /fascists/nazis oppose the eu. That is not the case.

 

[gbal]

Interesting vid:

 

Fake 'In' facts from Matt Hancock - Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General - he gets shredded:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO8RAZiMEbs

 

Shredded indeed.

 

McNeil is one of those pesky tenatious scots who can used data,and isn't easily brushed off.

He's done it to both sides,when some numpty has appeared.

 

Another take on this though,is Mr Hancock is a fairly senior civil servant,minister for th Cabinet Office and Paymaster General.

 

If so,how do you think he'd handle any complex issues-like a Brexit reorganisation/renegotiation with the Brussels toughies (I"m not sure if they are commies or fascists or both,now,but tough anyhow).

 

Poor guy,in above his depth,even if way below his salary level.

 

We're not voting for him-though that would be easy enough.He will be there to serve,in or out.

 

What it does show is that there is at least one hopeless bureacrat in Whitehall;Brussles cannot have them all.

 

God help us all.and mainly him.

 

Boris would have been the likeable puppy,all % figures s don't matter,the thing is Norway and Switzerland and whoever,had to accept high costs,and crucial EU conditions,like free movement of citizens,but I shouldn't be saying that,and just because it's true,doesn't mean I'll admit it again,and we'd be different,donnez moi un break,we're britsh after all....." . and on on he's blurts away...

but he does not look a prat-just a wonderfully british excentric(who wants to be PM,and he's had to go this route)

 

Of course Norway dd not accept a high% of EU laws-they are not members-and can have deformed bananas,if they wish (but not from M&S) but they get the immigration biggies and the bill. (they do have lots of oil money they didn't squander).

If it was just another general UK election,it would not matter ('cos we have sovereignty,and can change all the laws we don't like,so it hardly matters who gets in-I might nibble at that-I thought it meant about half the laws would not be popular,but which half changed regularly,and controvesy had largely died down for most).

 

 

gb

[gbal]

George,

 

Your failing assumption, massively failing assumption, is your repeated belief that only the extreme right /fascists/nazis oppose the eu. That is not the case.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0wFii8klNg

 

 

NO Matt,I was replying to your claim that fascism/nazism would sneak up on us in the guise of the EU.

My reply was that there seems no evidence at all of that.

I am very well aware that there are some who do not take to the EU,yet who are not fascists/nazis.

There are probably some of the wider left who are not for the EU either.

My naivity is that the EU is ,if anything a bit social democrat at the moment.Given the options here,I'd be too.

 

Still no evidence though-you are at least consistent on that.

 

See The Kennedy-Newton Law of semantic dynamics stated elsewhere on the thread,or threadbare from you :-)

[Artiglio]

Brillo,

 

I would suggest to your friend that, even if a constitutional crisis were to result from an exit being vetoed by parliament , the underlying current of his words to me suggest he leans towards an exit.

In the event of an exit result being manipulated to ensure we remained in europe, the shock of such a vote would be the greatest force to date in forcing meaningful reform within europe and would also give the UK a position from which to negotiate forcefully. A remain vote will mean Camerons so called renegotiation becoming worthless when details are resolved.

 

On the economic argument, I've been unable to determine if the capital costs of the huge increases in population were factored in. I've seen it suggested that these costs ( hospitals, schools, services, infrastructure, social housing etc) would be seen as "investment". When you couple this with the fudging of figures regarding GDP with current population rather than the numbers that will generate the new GDP figure, which would effectively mean a reduction of GNP ( ie, we would all be generating less per capita).

The remain camps economic argument is farcical

 

Immigration, most of us would applaud anyone who comes here for a better life, the UK benefit system provides a standard of living unimaginable to many in eastern europe in return for 16 hours work a week, personally I've never paid taxes to support the burgeoning car wash industry in the uk, which must be one of the industries in greatest receipt of public money when in work bemefits are factored in.

Certainly divides the population, hardly surprising, those in need of a cleaner or cheap labour are going to have far different views to those living in an area that has experienced a large influx of migrants and seen wages suppressed ,especially in unskilled jobs.

 

Housing , we're unable to cope with the demand for housing with those already in the country, add an additional demand of around 75k homes each year and the only option will be a huge social houseing programme ( given the generally low earnings of the incoming migrants) this will require huge public subsidy to achieve.

 

So no surprise , i'm out.

[brown dog]

NO Matt,I was replying to your claim that fascism/nazism would sneak up on us in the guise of the EU.

 

 

Didn't say that. I said totalitarianism My example just happened to be 1930s Europe.

[gbal]

Thats nails it perfectly.

 

Communism by the back door.

Or something completey different fro BD's video of Tony Benn,who admits he was once for the EU ideals,but now thinks it has been infiltrated by Banks an Multinational Corporations.

 

Now that would truly be communism by the invisible door,or much, much more plausibly Capitalism,just the sort we hear people complaining about,including in the UK.-remember the banks 'collapse' and Multis non payment of tax...only yesterday

 

Not saying they are wrong,but the EU can't be both capitalist anc communist,both with big Cs.

 

Are two incompatible conspiracy theories better than one ?

At least one has to be false.(or is the Pope semitic?)

I have no doubt big business are close to Brussels-to see what they need to do to lobby (hopeless,bureacrats don't give),or keep ahead of the latest must use non toxics (well,seems a good idea for consumers-though hardly Marxist).

But they lobby everywhere- The Us Senate,Westminsters -all the troughs,if you must (well maybe not in oligarch fat cat land-niet,and Sicily,it's only cosa nostra,our cosy family.)

 

Mama mia .... it's either a rich mans world or a poor comrade's.

 

Simples.

[gbal]

Didn't say that. I said totalitarianism My example just happened to be 1930s Europe.

OK,totalitarianism -so the communists too,and Benn's Bankers and Multinational Corporations should go in too.

 

As on another thread,I have no doubt the B &MCs are there,as everywhere else including Westminster.

 

Communists tend not to combine with fascists/nazis (at lest in your example).

 

Maybe with all this wheeling dealing and no doubt backstabbing etc, some of the Central Democrats will get some more good stuff done,whatever trough they are closest to,and the elected MEPs might help.That's elected...by us,and other EU citizens with proportional representation-a new fangled democratic tool the UK resists-good god,it means one man/woman one vote,and they all count equally.....it's not....not...not british,by gad. :-)

So,even if all these factons exist,they exist wherever there is power/money.That includes the EU,but where is excluded?

Leaving the EU does not gain immunity----is there not a fuss about Banks here,and non tax paying Multi Nationals....

 

Totalitarians are less conspicuous,agreed,in contemporary UK (are the National Backsides gone?)

 

But then no totalitarians have been actually identified in the EU either-that remains a conspiracy claim.,and subject to the Kennedy-Newton law.

 

The conspiracy theorists could look at EU law etc so far,and identify the totalitarian bits,compared to the considerable amount of eg workers rights,parental leave,minimum wages.....yes,other countries have some of these-it does no harm for EU to be consistent with eg the UK. I'm not suggesting more time off to give a baby a good start in life is in any way politically motivated-it's just a good idea supported by much research,some from the uk,and some done before the EU research funding did what the UK govt did not do-fund world class research-though most has gone into medical research-you know,progress in cancer cures (making money for totalitarian drug cartels....or curing people).Chose.Once we didn't get the cure option.

 

gb

 

gb

[brown dog]

But then no totalitarians have been actually identified in the EU either-that remains a conspiracy claim.,

 

Do you actually listen to any of the things these people say?!

 

Example, Junckers:

 

On Greece's economic meltdown in 2011

"When it becomes serious, you have to lie.

On EU monetary policy

"I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

On British calls for a referendum over Lisbon Treaty

“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,”

On French referendum over EU constitution

“If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,”

On the introduction of the euro

"We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

On eurozone economic policy and democracy

“We all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it”

[gbal]

Matt.I do-that is one politician speaking in his non prefered language-but what he says is hardly way off fairly standard political tactics. I don't agree with how it's phrased,but we get the equivalent from lots of (UK) politicians as summarised "All in the trough" "You can't believe any of them" and so on.

It is not unique to the EU.....typically,again,that is 'neglected'-thoufhit's the most widely expressed view about (UK) politicians that is expressed. It exists,in all politicals-alas maybe -remember so labelled Tony Bliar?

 

Here's another point though,the rise of totalitarianism in Europe-your example- happened in countries in europe with democratic elected parliaments (Germany , Italy, and maybe Spain)."Sovereignty' was no efffective safeguard then. Indeed the risk is that enough voters become disillusioned (usually economicaly or 'racially' led by spin,that they vote their own troubles in.

So a democratic,elected Government is vulnerable to totalitarianism,and that is sad fact.

 

It may be more difficult to get a more diverse EU population to act in that way.BUt one man one vote every 5 years failed back then.

 

It's not too great in recent UK either-most legislation isn't very well supported,though some is.A narrow Government majority will suffice And as I've suggested, can leave close to 50% disgruntled.

 

"Titular' is just wrong-Uk MPs have some power,and so do the MEPs-they arearguably more democratic since they are voted by a proportional representation system.They also now have the 55% absolute veto power negotiatedby Cameron-that just kills any legislation they so vote against.It's binding,and the other voting body-nationally nominated ministers-one for each country-cannot bypass it (they have also to approve legislation.

 

I do read quite a lot about many topics-it's a carreer thing,you have to be aware of the several theories/viewws etc,and you won't get away with empty words.

I have not seen much-anything-from 'Brussels' come into legislation that seemed threatening -mostly it is pretty decent stuff- I have asked for any negatives but no offers yet-I wonder why. And as ever,the ccontrol group question-how does the UK parliament do.....well,worse -a lot of UK voters seem to forget how much they were against various bits of UK legislation-and moans,some justified, about the UK system and institutions..vey few cause a change of government of course (poll taxcame close) but benefit cuts,bedroom tax....it's hardly rare,and inevitable with the Right-Left adversial politics in the UK.I can't see any evidence that the EU is worse,and looking at the EU program of legislation to date,and what is said,their record seems to me pretty good-and it's pretty much consistent with their general politics-centre social democrats.

They might be a bit fussy for some over polution,but right long term,and so on-most though is sensible progressive decent stuff-as many brexits agree ("Uk did this first'-so they agree...no,they get in a fix on that.All the work safguards-eual pay,non compulsory overtime,parental leave....holidays...on and on...no wonder most UK unions like that;International Corporation like it too-well treated workers are good workers;Multinationals ditto-it's a safer investment zone,same reason-and they know they can ge tolerablt deals from EU on often slightly bettewr terms than elswhere evenif it means some changes (use of safe chemicals,eg).All accceptable.It's a decent deal for all.Some is available elsewhere,but an EU deal is 28 (or so!) countries in one negotiation,and not 28 separte and differing conditions.

 

What's not to like,for anyone i all this?-there is no murky hidden totalitarian agenda ('we know best' is not rare in the UK-'smokinh' restrictions being a clear-and defensible example).

 

The EU does the good things at least as well as the UK,and better in many instances. Commerce clearly likes trade there (a minority who don't sell there of course are not supporters). The politics in the broad sense are NOT totalitarian (most countries have a minority of these views-the best antidote is a successful economy,and maybe decent education...the EU does this no worse that individual countries,by and large-the huge and friendly market helps.

 

Nope,I don't expect clear answers -like totalitarian laws-(too soon,just wait-close to paranoia,though every citizen should keep an eye on what is happening-the UK is rather poor at that-hence the large number of wildly erroneous figures some believe (12.5 million immigrants a year- it's nowhere near that,of course and we need most of them anyhow).

The whole campaign has been another disappointment for anyone who would like informed decisions made.Maybe 'purdah' should have been declared on day 2 of the campaign. Open minds and accurately informed ones are often conspicuousby their absence-and the best ones-the next generation of young people-are understandablly perhaps,again turned off by lies and posturing.It's just the british way in politics,but we are rather good at it -and we rather get what we deserve....and we can get back to slagging the UK politicians pretty soon,whether or not the european baby goes with the bathwater.

 

Prime minister's question time,anyone-an insight into how real UK polititians govern our country-selection of the worst is generally unfair. But the only tactic of those who dare not admit of the best.

 

 

"No man is an island,sufficient unto himself" John Donne's words were not about Europe,but about any human death and how the bell then tolls for us all .

 

An inspirational young MP is now dead.

A huge decision now awaits this nation,indeed Europe and the world.

 

Let it be the decision of decent ,well informed citizens,taken rationally and thoughtfully.

 

gbal

[brown dog]

Cognitive dissonance again.

"He can't possible mean what he says!!! I'll choose to ignore his actual words because it doesn't chime with my beliefs!"

- it's translated from a Belgian newspaper interview.

 

Let's run his best again:

 

"We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

 

A similar quote is often attributed to Hitler:

 

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.”

 

You are, I'm sure, aware of the boiling frog concept?

 

In the same way, Democracy, once given up -even by a process of almost slow erosion- will be dead.

 

[John MH]

An inspiratuonal young MP is now dead.

A huge decision now awaits this nation,indeed Europe and the world.

 

Let it be the decision of decent ,well informed citizens,taken rationally and thoughtfully.

 

gbal

 

 

Why mention this, does it support your argument?

[bowji john]

 

 

Why mention this, does it support your argument?

 

Was wondering when the IN crowd would start to try and link the act of a lunatic with the most important decision facing us in our lifetime

 

Come Sunday (when spin and bull sh*t resumes) we will see loads of it from Cameron and his toadies

[Montey]

Gbal the problem is that all those who have been unerversty and have a certain out look on life assume they must be rite all the time. I say this having two close family members who now getting on in years have docrtrits in Agree culture and mathematics Respectively.The rest of us have seen changes in thier attudes in the last 30 years as real life dawns on them ie work kids Mortgage ect.

My point is very simple from a man in the street thers to many Immigrants taking our blue colier jobs using up our school places and the NHS.

Now we hear a European Army & European tax code its the European superstate not what my grand father fought for.

British Regiments commanded by French and Italian officers!!

A European tax office!!

I say out and be done with the lot of it.

[JBirchall]

I agree. Why mention it? I was baffled why Finman mention it on the other thread. In my opinion it says more about the individual than anything else.

[VarmLR]

I read today that even the IMF are coming out and saying that a vote to leave won't automatically plunge the UK into recession but with favourable handling of the Brexit might only result in a slight reduction in economic growth over the next year or two.

 

Meanwhile the French economy minister has come out with his own straw man argument stating that the UK will be "as significant as Guernsey" on the world trade platform, completely failing to recognise that we aim to negotiate our own trade deals. They really are getting desperate to keep us in! The same guy has said that the EU would "send a very firm message and timetable to the UK" for Brexit to make an example of us and would start damage limitation to try and prevent other countries from exercising their democratic right to leave (presumably meaning Greece and Italy who have recently hinted that they want out too).

 

That will tip a lot of people to vote out I reckon, with such a public display of dictatorship having little to do with democracy at work. The blatancy of this statement from the french against member states being able to exercise democracy is the tip, seemingly, of a very large iceberg bearing down on all member states. Demonstration enough of the control that the EU wants over each and every one of you and control of your finances, plus an example of how one French minister thinks that he can speak for the whole 28 member states. The French and Germans, together with a handful of the elite from Brussels and Luxembourg control the EU and the EC.

 

"Remain that the table if you want a voice" they keep telling us. What many STILL fail to realise is that laws and directives are initialised and enacted by the un elected European Commission, not the European Parliament. MEPs simply have the power to vote on whether to support proposals or to object to them. The EC doesn't even have to listen in the event of a vote for "no" and has in fact pushed through a lot of unwanted and undesirable legislation this way. It is not a democracy in any way shape or form and we have no real "voice". Our MEPs make up about 9% of the total MEP count from 28 member states and alliances are becoming less and less easy to forge in this powder keg of politics and games and corruption. Our only real choice seems, it would appear, is to leave as the EU (EC) is not for turning, and not for reform.

[MJR]

Linking the sad loss of a mother who happened to be a MP in such a horrific manner to either side of the Brexit debate argument is utterly utterly despicable.

[22lrman]

I can't remember ever being offered a vote for any one of the many 'Presidents' within the European Parliment. Or even a Euro MP for that matter.

Or any of the legislation, regulations ad infinitum.

 

So, in the spirit of British Democracy we all fought so hard for over the centuries. Most definitely OUT.

 

Sorry did I say European Parliment, I meant 'Dictatorship'. They have well and truly broken themselves.

[gbal]

For, those who have misunderstood ,or perhaps have not read clearly what I proposed,sorry-let me make it clear:

 

I do not know what Jo's view on Europe was.Her charity and Parliamentary work was much admired and respected.

 

My point was that we have had far too much name calling,false use of statistics,deliberate distortions,and worse in the referendum campaign.

 

 

I was proposing we draw a line under all of that-a complete "Purdah" to let people think and decide free of acrimony,and emotive arguements.

 

The Government etc have subsequently 'suspended' campaigning-I was proposing that lasts -here at least-until the vote is over.

 

There is no bias whatever as to which way votes should be cast in what I said,but read it again,see it as a plea to maintain the standards Jo aspired to,and attained in her work,as a mark of respect.

 

"Let it be the decision of decent,well informed citizens taken rationally and thoughtfully."

 

gbal

[les]

A huge decision now awaits this nation,indeed Europe and the world.

 

Let it be the decision of decent ,well informed citizens,taken rationally and thoughtfully.

 

gbal

 

Aye, let's all vote OUT!

[brown dog]

My point was that we have had far too much name calling,false use of statistics,deliberate distortions,and worse in the referendum campaign.

 

 

I was proposing we draw a line under all of that-a complete "Purdah" to let people think and decide free of acrimony,and emotive arguements.

 

The Government etc have subsequently 'suspended' campaigning-I was proposing that lasts -here at least-until the vote is over.

 

 

 

I'm not sure your point makes sense here. I'm not reading any acrimonious argument. I'm reading debate. Haven't noticed anything nasty.

 

I believe the govt debate restarts tomorrow (?). Certainly, I shan't stop talking about this. I lost a branch of my family in the last century's fights for democracy, and have spent my adult working life in the Service of my country. I'll not be shuffling towards the metropolitan-pc camp giving away democratic freedoms bought with the blood of millions without voicing my view of the situation.

 

As regards that poor MP. Very, very sad. She looks to have been a lovely lady - someone whose views I'm quite sure I'd have found to be excruciatingly the opposite to most of mine, but lovely nonetheless.

 

I believe something like 70 people per year are killed in the UK by diagnosed paranoid schizophrenics who should be in care. A tragic and horrifying indictment of both austerity and its effect on the NHS. Sad then, that the same crowd who would yell that one muslim terrorist doesn't make all muslims terrorists, are the same people now trying to make generalisations about 'leavers' based on the actions from a failed-care-in-the-community nut-job psycho. So - not all muslims are, but all leavers are.......Seems the eu-subordination anti-democracy crowd want to have their cake and eat it. Given the situation, rather a despicable stance that shows the true depth of their crocodile tears and faux tolerance.

[jockey]

To retain our constitution, democracy, sovereignty,freedom and make our own decisions in our own country , I will be voting out.A European army what rubbish .

Steve

[bradders]

Out

 

And if the Leave side wins, then any remainers leave

I am happy to drive you to Dover next Friday

[MrCetrizine]

It would appear there is a petition on the government site with over 30,000 signatures so far calling for the referendum to be cancelled because of the murder of Jo Cox.

 

I find it despicable that people would try to use the murder of someone who clearly cared about democracy to deny the democratic process.