Brexit? A quick poll

[terryh]

GB,

 

In no particular order of reply:

 

You do not seem to grasp my meaning re. CAP - spending vast amounts of money to align a system that will never work across the whole of the EU is a waste of money.

 

I've not said anything about 'Britishness', but would agree we've been invaded a couple of times, probably to overall advantage, but not in the last 1000 years so not really relevant.

 

Re. Slovak states - well I must say the Bosnian conflict really showed the cramming of people together really worked.

 

The simples solution is to have the same relationship with the EU as Norway - part of the EEA, which should be circulated as it will please everyone, lesser nanny state (controlled by MEP's who are basically failed MP's from their respective countries) but still economic cooperation.

 

No more contribution to things that will not/have never worked e.g. Greece, never repaid any debts in their history, still having billions pumped in to ensure the Euro does not fail (same principle as CAP).

 

Concur with Pete, governments are demonstrably useless, but at least it's own government that is useless

 

Failure of EU to face any facts, core members i.e. Germany, slowing media to promote their own agenda.

 

Sorry, have worked/lived in enough countries around the globe to know what is wrong - and the concept of the EU is wrong.

 

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

Terry

[brown dog]

What is this "Britishness" of which ye speak ?

 

GB

 

The answer is stunningly simple (when you strip away the liberalist faux naivete behind such a question, a question that amounts to a veiled challenge of racism as it seeks to draw un-pc and 'non-inclusive' language from the respondent):

 

Britishness is thinking of oneself as British

(And therefore, anyone in UK who does, is.)

(And anyone who doesn't, isn't)

[Davy]

 

The answer is stunningly simple (when you strip away the liberalist faux naivete behind such a question, a question that amounts to a veiled challenge of racism as it seeks to draw un-pc and 'non-inclusive' language from the respondent):

 

Britishness is thinking of oneself as British

(And therefore, anyone in UK who does, is.)

(And anyone who doesn't, isn't)

Perfectly put Sir.

[gbal]

The answer is stunningly simple (when you strip away the liberalist faux naivete behind such a question, a question that amounts to a veiled challenge of racism as it seeks to draw un-pc and 'non-inclusive' language from the respondent):

 

Britishness is thinking of oneself as British

(And therefore, anyone in UK who does, is.)

(And anyone who doesn't, isn't)

 

Isn't 'Britishness'is a noun- perhaps abstact in part-like 'happiness' -I was asking 'Why qualities would make one think of oneself as British?"

 

The kind of answer I expected would be something like: 'a sense of fair play'/ability to compromise/tolerant of different views' and such like....but didn't want to presuppose any of the traits.

 

No racism at all,or p/c or a challenge-the question has been asked long before most of those concepts were afround,Matt.Maybe you make a category error- "I am British'' is not the same statement at all as "I believe in/admire/resent "Britishness". cf "I am scottish'eg by parents/place of birth,is very different from "I am proud/not proud to be Scottish".

Descripors like "A stiff upper lip" was not meant as some facial deformity,nor "Bulldog Breed" as stocky,but alluded to essentially psychological/personality characteristics.

 

Maybe there will be some more informative/insightful replies,and maybe not.

Maybe there just aren't any such traits,so 'British" isn't much different from "French" -if both mean 'I chose to consider myself British (or French)".

Absolutely fine;but it can hardly suffice as a persuasive reason to be for/against the UK in the EU,since you can be in the EU

and still say " I think of myself as British"-fine,you are (subject to qualifying,as it were,perhaps). Angela Merkel is German-there is no confusion in that statement,nor if she says "I am German".

 

I can't say "I am in the Britissh army" but I could say "I admire many of the British Army's values",and a legitimate question might be "Which ones in particular do you admire?"

and the answer would be something like "Discipline " or "toughness";Tough but disciplined'' and so on,and some progress is made.

 

g

[ds1]

I still have a GB passport so will absolutely vote OUT . Also in the hope other countries will follow. The EU as a trade organisation yes but not as a super state making laws that cannot be over-tuned by individual states.

[brown dog]

Isn't 'Britishness'is a noun- perhaps abstact in part-like 'happiness' -I was asking 'Why qualities would make one think of oneself as British?"

 

The kind of answer I expected would be something like: 'a sense of fair play'/ability to compromise/tolerant of different views' and such like....but didn't want to presuppose any of the traits.

 

No racism at all,or p/c or a challenge-the question has been asked long before most of those concepts were afround,Matt.Maybe you make a category error- "I am British'' is not the same statement at all as "I believe in/admire/resent "Britishness". cf "I am scottish'eg by parents/place of birth,is very different from "I am proud/not proud to be Scottish".

Descripors like "A stiff upper lip" was not meant as some facial deformity,nor "Bulldog Breed" as stocky,but alluded to essentially psychological/personality characteristics.

 

Maybe there will be some more informative/insightful replies,and maybe not.

Maybe there just aren't any such traits,so 'British" isn't much different from "French" -if both mean 'I chose to consider myself British (or French)".

Absolutely fine;but it can hardly suffice as a persuasive reason to be for/against the UK in the EU,since you can be in the EU

and still say " I think of myself as British"-fine,you are (subject to qualifying,as it were,perhaps). Angela Merkel is German-there is no confusion in that statement,nor if she says "I am German".

 

I can't say "I am in the Britissh army" but I could say "I admire many of the British Army's values",and a legitimate question might be "Which ones in particular do you admire?"

and the answer would be something like "Discipline " or "toughness";Tough but disciplined'' and so on,and some progress is made.

 

g

 

Simply, the answer is for the person who believes themselves to be British, to compile a list of reasons that separate them from someone who does not believe themselves to be British.

 

That might include: Being legally British (ie able to hold a UK passport), able to speak English, accepting of UK Law and UK institutions, holding UK values of tolerance, freedom and democracy, describing the UK as 'home'.

 

The challenge is no different to that of defining any other nationality, I'm not Spanish, because I'm not legally Spanish, I can't speak Spanish, I don't understand Spanish institutions nor Law, I'm not too sure about the Spanish views on tolerance, freedom and democracy (although I do know I subscribe to the British models) and I don't describe Spain as 'home'.

 

I get the impression that you believe in national stereotypes or some sort of single national personality trait - Not all Frenchmen wear berets, ride bicycles covered in onions and smell of garlic, nor are they all 'cheese eating surrender monkeys'............some will be extroverts, some will be introverts, some will be upbeat, some dour, some gregarious, some loners, some excitable, some calm, some brave, some cowardly.....................however, to be considered as 'French' they will probably all be legally French, able to speak French, accepting of French Law and French institutions, hold French values of tolerance, freedom and democracy, and describe France as 'home'.

 

Simples.

[SWShooter]

 

Simply, the answer is for the person who believes themselves to be British, to compile a list of reasons that separate them from someone who does not believe themselves to be British.

 

That might include: Being legally British (ie able to hold a UK passport), able to speak English, accepting of UK Law and UK institutions, holding UK values of tolerance, freedom and democracy, describing the UK as 'home'.

 

The challenge is no different to that of defining any other nationality, I'm not Spanish, because I'm not legally Spanish, I can't speak Spanish, I don't understand Spanish institutions nor Law, I'm not too sure about the Spanish views on tolerance, freedom and democracy (although I do know I subscribe to the British models) and I don't describe Spain as 'home'.

 

I get the impression that you believe in national stereotypes or some sort of single national personality trait - Not all Frenchmen wear berets, ride bicycles covered in onions and smell of garlic, nor are they all 'cheese eating surrender monkeys'............some will be extroverts, some will be introverts, some will be upbeat, some dour, some gregarious, some loners, some excitable, some calm, some brave, some cowardly.....................however, to be considered as 'French' they will probably all be legally French, able to speak French, accepting of French Law and French institutions, hold French values of tolerance, freedom and democracy, and describe France as 'home'.

 

Simples.

+1 and I`d add , Being a supporter of the Monarchy , accepting C of E as being the official religion (even though I`m agnostic) , being fully supportive of British Armed Forces ,not allowing foreign countries or foreign people to change British culture or laws.

[desparado]

Get out while we still have a chance - if we leave if for another 40 years, there will be nothing left worth saving.

[redding]

We pay £50million a day to be in the EU, if we get out, and I hope we do,we could use that saving to make our country great again.

As for the SNP, they are rabid and would go against the English just to be bloody minded.

The problem is I suspect, that the majority of farmers will vote to stay in due to subsidies, but if we came out then some of the savings could be used to replace it.

[Will0]

The problem is I suspect, that the majority of farmers will vote to stay in due to subsidies, but if we came out then some of the savings could be used to replace it.

 

Farming forums are polling at 70% to leave...

 

To play devils advocate, the saving COULD be used to replace the BPS money; but will the British public support that? They already view it as free money (it's a tool to control the farmers and stabilise food price at a basic level).

Never having lived before the CAP, I think I'd prefer for the whole of Europe to just drop it and let the market run its natural course - highs and lows occur; in fact the subsidy is due to drop 20% (off the top of my head, maybe 10%) a year anyway!

[6.5 shooter]

Being a farmer which is one of the uk's biggest industries, exiting the EU would be devastating and something that David Cameron would need to be prepered to help with.

Farmers rely on subsidies to make up for poor return for their produce. If this disappears then be prepared for an increase in food price in the shops, and it will/should be a hefy increase to milk, meat, cheese etc.

If the British government does nothing to help UK farms then a major crisis is at stake for uk produced food.

You will see importation of food from countries like Brazil who can produce beef for less money who use growth hormones and various drugs which are banned in the uk.

Do you really what to eat that?

Uk farms go through alot of scrutiny like Farm Quality Assured schemes which monitor production of milk and beef to a very high standard. Annual checks on drug usage, farm hygiene and paperwork all ensures everything is as it should be for it to enter the food chain.

Enjoy beef from youre local butchers at present because if there is a brexit it will at least become very expensive and at worst vanish. You will be eating shoe soles from asda or sainsburys.

[redding]

Being a farmer which is one of the uk's biggest industries, exiting the EU would be devastating and something that David Cameron would need to be prepered to help with.

Farmers rely on subsidies to make up for poor return for their produce. If this disappears then be prepared for an increase in food price in the shops, and it will/should be a hefy increase to milk, meat, cheese etc.

If the British government does nothing to help UK farms then a major crisis is at stake for uk produced food.

You will see importation of food from countries like Brazil who can produce beef for less money who use growth hormones and various drugs which are banned in the uk.

Do you really what to eat that?

Uk farms go through alot of scrutiny like Farm Quality Assured schemes which monitor production of milk and beef to a very high standard. Annual checks on drug usage, farm hygiene and paperwork all ensures everything is as it should be for it to enter the food chain.

Enjoy beef from youre local butchers at present because if there is a brexit it will at least become very expensive and at worst vanish. You will be eating shoe soles from asda or sainsburys.

If you read my post I said that the £50million a day saving by not being in the EU could be used to "support" the loss of subsidy given to UK farmers.

 

My post was not intended to "have a pop" at Farmers but that said, I do not agree with the subsidy system anyway, it was brought into being after the war to encourage food production, it was even continued when we had food mountains. I get no subsidy for my business, no compensation for bad weather/diseases etc.

Is not the "poor return for their produce" the true value? (Milk excluded) As for scrutiny, all UK businesses have it and quite rightly so because there will always be unscrupulous suppliers in every trade/business that will try to bend the rules.

 

£50million a day in membership fees equates to eighteen billion two hundred fifty million pounds per annum, I think some of that could be used to keep the status quo as it is so that I wouldn't have to eat shoe soles from Asda, I cant afford to shop there anyway.

Incidentally, I think the price of milk is ridiculous, a 4 pint container for just over a quid, it could easily be double that and still good value. Who sets the price farmers get for it anyway, ahh, that will be government!

[gbal]

The NFU policy statement is quite informative on some of these agricultural issues.While the NFU does not commit to either in or out,at the momentit does raise valid points,some about considerable improvements in the CAP (it's now takes 39% of EU budget,directed mainly at poorer farmers,via technological improvements,rather than in 73% of the budget it spet in 1985;and as NFU point out,we don't have the wasteful overproductions of the 'wine lake'/'butter mountain' early mistakes.

The NFU admit that they are concerned about much vagueness as to alternative subsidies if out of the EU,and give some reasons-UK government has played a complex game,but I could not claim to fully follow 'decoupled direct support" (perhaps one of our resident experts will be along soon to clarify that one-Mike,if you dish it out unfairly,you have to expect some mild teasing in return :-)

6.5s salient points about healthy quality meat etc come about because of EU regulations. NFU seem to approve-perhaps healthy animals and crops are no bad thing,including for fair profit.

AS NFU is very clear in pointing out,the examples of Norway and Switzerland need careful consideration. UK puts in £156 per capita,to be a full member essentially it's like tax-the richer countries-germany,France....and so on pay more,based on GNP..and a bit on VAT income....whatever,poor countries contribute very little. One might see the CAP etc as intended to improve them,and increase their contributions-but let's keep politics out as much as we can. Anyhow,Norway for example,pays £106 per capita, and can deliver goods to the EU tradesmen's door,subject to producton to essentialy the same standards as EU members.BUt Norway has no say whatsoever in the EU decision making.They are not members. Switzerland has a similar 'supply only' status.

Do we get much for the extra-well,the absolute classic rule of negatiation and protecting your interests is "BE THERE",but there is more-UK get-by negotiating as a member,crucialconcessions on eg Banking (mainly the City). That ensures investment capital,and that means jobs-whatever you feel about CEOs getting mega rewards,and the rest of us,much.much less,we do have jobs.

(see later). The NFU position expresses clear concern about agricultural problems of labour supply,if EU type free moveent f workers is diminished. It may even hit Barnsley (hi to all there),as their is also a chronic shortages of all ethnic food chefs-they can't get in,and UK traing schemes has to date trained precisely zero chefs.

OK-Tthe NFU issues cannot but raise such concerns,almost all predicated on an 'out' position. The NFU points out that exit is not free,and bound by the Treaty of Lisbon,and the NFU stresses that no member has ever left the EU...implying it has not been at all attractive. 'Lisbon' is a two year uncertainty period (all businesses will hate that-especialy smaller ones) while the EU essentially decides what the leaver will get-maybe a Norwegian deal,but maybe not.

 

Ok,enough perhaps,on this for now-note how the issues do interact-there are NO free lunches in or out. Negotiation is vey much possible within the EU,and -of course- things change- the UK gets gets a considerable rebate (money back) which PM Thatcher negatiated in 1985 when the UK was a lot less well off than currently- just as UK governments say they work.

 

The NFU 2014 figures are UK gross in to EU £19.23Billion;£4.54 Billion back in public/infra structure spending and £4.89 billion rebate. So the uk net contribution in 2014 was £9.81 billion.

 

I hope farmers in rural Northumberland get a bit to fill in potholes,but we should not be too parochial on all this. It's a big deal.

Oh,and inter-related ,if there's no one to pick the produce,then it'll be just boots and soles,no veg. Surely not...??

 

Sako 243's earlier post reference was very clear on the finances,too-granted ,as some note,it's complex-but there is enough reasonably transparent to curb the excess claaims-either way. Though not all costs/benefits are directly calculable-but that's for the signatures chat....

 

bon apetit

GB

[Re-Pete]

Leaving the EU will put us exclusively in the hands of these braying tory morons, or are they extras from a Monty Python sketch?

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/cameron-corbyn-exchange-motherly-advice-125822347.html

 

I can't believe this.......................they're supposed to be running the country, and they're behaving like schoolkids.

 

Camoron certainly didn't do his side any favours here, either.

 

Pete

[Chanonry]

Farmers will be well screwed

 

There is no way that the UK population will accept large subsidies to farmers. One of the repeated aims of the political classes is to reform the CAP i.e. cut how much is spent.

 

SO - subsidy goes down, farms are less economic in the best cases, totally uneconomic in most. Land price collapses (it has no intrinsic value). Multimillionaire assets vanish. The reality is that land prices bear no relationship to economic value at the moment. It is an asset bubble

[6.5 shooter]

If you read my post I said that the £50million a day saving by not being in the EU could be used to "support" the loss of subsidy given to UK farmers.

 

My post was not intended to "have a pop" at Farmers but that said, I do not agree with the subsidy system anyway, it was brought into being after the war to encourage food production, it was even continued when we had food mountains. I get no subsidy for my business, no compensation for bad weather/diseases etc.

Is not the "poor return for their produce" the true value? (Milk excluded) As for scrutiny, all UK businesses have it and quite rightly so because there will always be unscrupulous suppliers in every trade/business that will try to bend the rules.

 

£50million a day in membership fees equates to eighteen billion two hundred fifty million pounds per annum, I think some of that could be used to keep the status quo as it is so that I wouldn't have to eat shoe soles from Asda, I cant afford to shop there anyway.

Incidentally, I think the price of milk is ridiculous, a 4 pint container for just over a quid, it could easily be double that and still good value. Who sets the price farmers get for it anyway, ahh, that will be government!

 

I understand what youre saying and yes you are right but this is the situation our government has goten is into and its going to be very tough to leave. (As a farmer)

 

I agree subsidies shouldnt have even been issued, a fairer price is the answer but this is the situation government has created.

As for milk price, lifting the quota for farmers to be able to produce as much as they wanted was a big mistake! Again this was not the farmers decision and a niche in the market for more milk is the downfall eventually.

Will the government step in and help the farmer from a brexit?

Its a tall order when all they seem to be interested in is bringing imigrants in and putting them up. I doubt they will do much for their natives who support the food industry and alot of jobs and to which alot of other business depend on the farmer. Eg machinery sales, chemicals, hardware stores, fuel, the list is endless.

[Chanonry]

Turns out Wee Nippy is wrong. Scots are just as sceptical as there rest of you moaning buggers. SNP are always telling us we are so different from everyone else when in fact we are very similar in our outlook.

 

They are just looking for an excuse to have another referendum (as will Eurosceptics when they lose). The caution is of course that they cannot box themselves into a corner as next time they have to win or there is no reason for their existence anymore.

[tisme]

At least if we leave the EU we can vote for who we want to run the country (some politicians might support subsidies to farmers) and make our laws it's got to be better than 28 unelected doing it

[Chanonry]

At least if we leave the EU we can vote for who we want to run the country (some politicians might support subsidies to farmers) and make our laws it's got to be better than 28 unelected doing it

 

No it does not have to be better.

 

Yes the EU is undemocratic; a shambles etc etc.

 

On the other hand if we leave you will be seriously impoverished. £ will devalue (Boris started it), trade will decline, tax take will decline, Multi's based here to be in Europe will move out, and credit rating is already a bit shoogly. Say hello to higher unemployment, prices and taxes.

 

If that is fully compensated for you by having a vote in a first past the post system to elect an MP in London then on you go. As to that being democratic, well lots of people have argued that it is not.

 

Be as well to think through the consequences

[brown dog]

I think that's just 'scared of change' scaremongering talk.

 

Trade would be essentially unchanged - that's what the European Free Trade Agreements (which already exist) already do for many non-EU countries. See list here.

 

And the threat to farmers? Well, we may be where we are in terms of history, but there's something intrinsically not right or 'just' about the farming subsidy system when compared to the lack of support to all other types of industry and self employment (but, being honest, I know I'd vote to maintain the gravy train if I was on it!) I don't think there's such a thing as a poor farmer in my neck of the woods. In fact, I doubt there are many who aren't subsidy-created multi-milllionaires.

 

Not Farming Pigs

COPY LETTER TO:
The Honorable Secretary of State for Agriculture,
Ministry of Agriculture,
Westminster.

Dear Sir,

My friend, in farming at the moment, received a check for £3,000 from the
government for not raising pigs. So, I want to go into the "not raising pigs"
business next year.

What I want to know is, in your opinion, what is the best kind of farm not to
raise pigs on, and what is the best breed of pigs not to raise? I want to be
sure that I approach this endeavor in keeping with all government policies as
dictated by the EUropean Union under the CAP. I would prefer not to raise
bacon pigs, but if that is not a good breed not to raise, then I will just as
gladly not raise Yorkshires or Gloucester Spots.

As I see it, the hardest part of this program will be in keeping an accurate
inventory of how many pigs I haven't raised.

My friend is very joyful about the future of the business. He has been
raising pigs for twenty years or so, and the best he ever made on them was
£1422 in 1968, until this year when he got your check for £3000 for not
raising pigs.

If I get £3000 for not raising 50 pigs, will I get £6000 for not raising 100
pigs? I plan to operate on a small scale at first, holding myself down to
about 4000 pigs not raised, which will mean about £240,000 the first year.
Then I can afford an airplane.

Now another thing, these pigs I will not raise will not eat 100,000 bushels
of corn. I understand that you also pay farmers for not raising corn and
wheat. Will I qualify for payments for not raising wheat and corn not to
feed the 4000 pigs I am not going to raise?

Also, I am considering the "not milking cows" business, so send me
any information you have on that too. Also please can I have the government
propaganda on set aside, what is the maximum amount of land one can set aside
and can this be done on an 'e commerce' basis on virtual reality land?

In view of these circumstances, you understand that I will be totally
unemployed, and plan to file for unemployment and full benefits.

Be assured I will consider you having my vote in the next election.

Patriotically Yours,

Greg Lance - Watkins

 

Personal interests aside.....the crux of the matter.....as long as we remain, we can't make our own decisions:

 

"the European Court of Justice...stands above the nation states."

[tisme]

No it does not have to be better.

 

Yes the EU is undemocratic; a shambles etc etc.

 

On the other hand if we leave you will be seriously impoverished. £ will devalue (Boris started it), trade will decline, tax take will decline, Multi's based here to be in Europe will move out, and credit rating is already a bit shoogly. Say hello to higher unemployment, prices and taxes.

 

If that is fully compensated for you by having a vote in a first past the post system to elect an MP in London then on you go. As to that being democratic, well lots of people have argued that it is not.

Be as well to think through the consequences

Wow what a negative view you have of Britain.

[Will0]

No it does not have to be better.

 

Yes the EU is undemocratic; a shambles etc etc.

 

On the other hand if we leave you will be seriously impoverished. £ will devalue (Boris started it), trade will decline, tax take will decline, Multi's based here to be in Europe will move out, and credit rating is already a bit shoogly. Say hello to higher unemployment, prices and taxes.

 

If that is fully compensated for you by having a vote in a first past the post system to elect an MP in London then on you go. As to that being democratic, well lots of people have argued that it is not.

 

Be as well to think through the consequences

 

The subsidy IS going down anyway! Ours dropped 20% this year, and the forecast is for the pattern to stay.

Will we have n instant exit or will it be phased in over five years? It will be hard, but in five years time our BPS payment will be nearly a third of what it is now.

 

If the GBP devalues to the Euro, it will benefit farmers as we will have a larger export market. I certainly remember the 2008 price jump.

[gbal]

This in/out is complex. I listened to Michael Gove yesterday,and had some sympathy with his wish to control who comes in to UK-I think much of what is good here in this country has 'come in'- anyhow this issue is salient for some (though not central at all to me).But he was not able to say how what he wanted would be readily achieved better out than in......this is a common situation- a desireable state of affairs is outlined,without any clear discription of how 'out'would achieve this. The 'ins' seem to say,it's pretty good,and will get better...

Admirable statements are made (we'll be better off in/out etc etc),but reasons are either brief,or brief and contradictory,or carry so much spin,they should be in the England cricket team.

 

From the FTSE top 100,36 CEO's have signe for in. Ah,say the outers,that means 64 may say 'out'....nope,we know that quite a lot are not committing either way. I've played a lot of team sport,not that individual personal experience is worth much,even corrrectly interpretes,Terry, in all thisand 36-0 at half time is a winning position,wih only one possible exception-you are playing the All Blacks.

 

It has some bearing as these fat cats -if you must- control a lot of jobs -underpaid if you must ,but jobs-and they make their money-ill gotten gains if you must- from people in work. Is it about 3-4 m jobs directly involved in EU exports-lots of dosh,anyhow-the UK will not be trading on the same favourable terms if out,not in- and the EU is the best consumer market bloc in the world (more people than US,more money than Chinese)-big trough if you must-but the UK farming position is reasonable clear if you read the NFU statement.Norway pays 2/3 of the UK membership just to be allowed to sell in EU,on much the same terms of production etc.

Large corporations can probably take the 2 year uncertainty-while we are negotiated out,and priviledged trade removed-yet still seem for 'in',smaller businesses will have to manage the limbo best they can (uncertainty is strongly negative in markets-though ultimately not at all decisive,Boris depressed the share values a few percent-that's a lot of dosh,guys.)

 

No-one really knows what 5-10 years hence will be like either way. Economically,it seems to be about balance of risks.

 

Listening too,to both sides,on some issues, there are statements whose aim have merit.but have no means of delivery,or none that are better/worse achieved in or out ( Michael Gove,yesterday). The plight of migrants is messy,but how would a disunited Europe have done it better...eg. countries once had a fierce NIMBY approach- sent them somewhere else,anywhere else-politics is war without blood,and we haven't had a pan Euro war since the EU was set up. That's a plus.

 

And distorted views-derived from incorrect views of both the UK parliamentary system (no Right -Left animosity in UK etc-when is the next election?) and the European 'two house'system (where we do have elected representatives-its even nearly proportionalrepresentation,so we have a fair share,who now have an absolute veto power,if 55% members agree.-sounds fairly democratic to me).

The decision matters,and isn'r simples; I am just trying to get it made on fair and informed grounds- having recently heard OAPs in Scotland say they voted because they thought they'd lose their pension,what a travesty of misinformation. (Voted yes or no-point is it was a false basis either way,based on groundless worry-nobody made it clear.)

 

GB

[SWShooter]

re Farmers , here the opinion of a few http://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/eu-poll-leave-or-remain.106278/

63% currently want to leave.

 

And quite a few Forces/Ex Forces want to leave http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/combined-eu-referendum-thread.251679/

Over 75% currently want to leave.

[gbal]

SW- but then more than a dozen of very senior British military leaders (Chiefs of staff,Head of the Army etc) have signed a letter warning of increased dangers if UK leaves the EU (mainly security issues-their expert area,and terrorism).

 

Putin wants the UK out of the EU.

 

I have very considerable regard for our senior military-experienced men,who can make judgements led by reality,and (especially when retired) capable of very insightful and balanced commentary.

 

I can't say the same for Mr Putin.

 

Just a thought today about democracy- I can't see Donald Trump getting very far in the EU- he is a consummate populist,but full of ...you know the stuff mushrooms like-yet despite his "What does the Pope know about Christianity?" arrogance, (this guy in charge of foreign policy in the most powerful country in the world??) he can still bamboozle (46% of the RC oriented hispanic vote ,he says). That's what happens when fact and careful reasoning and assessment get lost (deliberately by Trump,of course). It has happened in Europe,but only when countries were completely separate,as any senior British military man knows only too well....

 

interesting exchange too between the deputy Farage fired,and a young lad speaking for imigrant policy reform: the majority of the 300 thou net imigration is actually from outside the EU; but the imigrants have no jobs on enttry (ukip);no,but they get jobs when they get in (young lad); but not well paid (ukip).

She seemed to think she had done well- these are the workers the farmers needs to pick veggies,as UK unemployed won't do it...

 

Curry chef shortage....engineering firms are unable to get applicants from the UK population,and are very glad of qualified imigrants -wel,says ukip,UK universities have failed.....I'm beginning to see why wshe has been let go (Nigel knows about PR)- degree recruitment in engineering-been there,seen it -or rather it's absence-kids here don't want to do it,and it's foreign students that keep many engineering degree programs viable....can't see 'out' helping much....' vorsprung durch technik' might work better,though there aren't a lot of Golf estates around- I do have to spend time on other things,very marginal really to EU!

GB

 

ps Mike-there was a short piece on the Ofsted fast broadband fudge- The Ofsted lady is asking BT to have a word with Outreach....that is all internal UK stuff,can't blame the EU- Spain after all,has 60% on fibre,to UK 2.5 %...the Ofsted lady though said she'd take it all to the EU commission to get some action,if the chat failed....

pps- agree on Cuba-their plans to computerise are second only to France,which has already done it. But Cuba sure has a lot of doctors,though I don't think any will dare be on strike.....and some 5 books on the Cuban medical statistics have raised some doubts...the black market is called 'socialismo' ....

 

cherry picking and nit picking? Sure gets complex,the truth does-or finding it ,rather. Trump just doesn't bother!!