Brexit? A quick poll

[MrCetrizine]

We were talking about this at work today and out of the 40 odd staff currently in the office, only 1 wanted to stay. When we pointed out that her dad lost his job at the Peugeot plant because the EU funded its move to Slovakia, she changed her mind.

[Breacher]

An excellent reminder of 'PC' versus 'real-world':

 

Great speech !!!

[VarmLR]

Out.

 

Having read a lot on the subject of the EU over the years, including the excellent publications by Chris Booker and Dr Richard North, the level of ignorance of many apparently erudite people on the detail and history behind the EU is simply staggering. No-one who reads "The Great Deception" could be left in any doubt whatsoever that we should have had a referendum and left a decade ago.

 

What is being deliberately held off until after the vote by the EU parliament and EU leaders is the subject of member state tax harmonisation, the formalisation of an EU army under the leadership of a central EU HQ and tying Sterling ever closer to the Euro in readiness for full unification. It is utterly undemocratic and the remarkable facts are that the Euro is failing, Greece will take 40 years to sort itself out, Spain, Portugal and Italy have close on 50% unemployment, and Italy & Greece want "out" as well, and are following the UK vote very closely as it wil be the catalyst for the collapse of Monet's failed Utopian experiment.

 

We can all still get along as European neighbours, all still invest in a common market, all contribute towards NATO without the restrictive and undemocratic ship that is not for turning, being the great EU machine.

 

The corruption in the halls of the EU is also simply staggering. I cannot believe that anyone who has read a lot into how it all actually works can draw any conclusion other than leave. Even our financial markets will be better off, with the removal of the burdensome and restrictive compliance rules which cost several BILLION annually to satisfy. There is no longer any sane reason other than the Utopian dream that we can change from within (we can't, we have lost any clout we had and 43 years after joining our position has become weaker with every year since Thatcher was in government).

 

Add to that the systematic asset stripping of British industry on the back of EU grants and protectionism of central European industry and we are simply being taken for a ride because Europe need our contribution...they don't necessarily want us.

 

OUT.

[terryh]

Not sure if it is widely advertised but I beleive that regardless of the vote's result next week it then has to go via parliament, the 'vote' is effectivly only a 'poll'.

 

See some of the 'ins' are getting desperate now they see an out vote a possibility - 'we'll have to put up basic rate of tax' etc.

 

In a previous post there was some rubbish about being 'at the table' - no one is at the top table except for the non elected commissioners. MEP's = titular.

 

FYI re. Populations of EU states not too worried about being in the EU, I work with a few EU companies, they to a man want out but do not have any choice, they are stuck with it. now the Norwegians on the other hand..........

 

I did actually revert to 'on the fence' for a while but looking at it objectively, removing the BS, bottom line - I'm not going to remove the right of my children on deciding who runs our country.

 

Terry

 

Ps are you really going to vote with Corbyn - FFS!!! (And that's not to do with his party BTW)

[MJR]

Terry, I believe you are correct the 'Poll' would need to go before parliament before a 'vote' to leave can take place. Ignoring the people's wish would be political suicide but hey, stranger things have happened......

[MJR]

I see Switzerland changed their mind about joining the EU last week and withdrew their application, how strange.....

[LukeSoutherner]

Agree totally with TerryH and VamLR. Points well made.

 

The media keep advertising the financial issues that will/won't arise if we leave the EU. However, the most important issue by a country mile is for our country to be self-governing, and for that government to be voted by the people of the country. This cannot be the case while being a member of the EU, where the MEPs are titular, and the power is held by unelected officials - The Committee of Permanent Representatives (COREPER). I don't recall ever voting for them, and yet they seem to have an awful lot of power.

 

That is why we need to get out.

[n8ess]

Great speech !!!

Very moving speech, in areas where a judicial system does not exist especially for the vulnerable then justice has to be done. Maybe those who disagree should ask the mother how she felt why this scum was abusing her child?

 

Another act of humanity, penalised for doing the right thing.

[gbal]

COREPER DOES NOT MAKE EU LAW.

 

Elected MEPs are not 'titular' and do have to vote democratically-actually a PR system,perhaps superior to UK-to agree to any EU 'proposal' becoming EU law,as do the council of ministers. Both must agree.

 

Coreper is essentially a civil service,which can influence agendas and proceedural matters.Read it's desription in the link Luke gives (post 157).

 

Decide on fact,not fabrications.

Compare UK/EU-the UK governing party eg assert that any item in their election manifest has democratic support. Simply not so,the votes are for a package,not for every single item-some manifesto issiues may have very little suport at all. (one reason there is sometimes a fuss).One reason Swiss citizens can call binding referenda on specific issues.

 

Maybe you don't like reasonably decent social democrats around the centre politics proposing ideas,but that is essentially the UK de facto position we get in virtually every modern age election.

(We call it centre right,centre left,New labour,compassionate conservatism and so on).

 

The extremes don't often get legislation passed here-or in Europe.

Voters In UK actually vote for one person,which is but one kind of political democracy (though EU is similar with MEPs).

The rest is essentially 'trust' in broadly like minded MPs (just as EU).

 

That's why such issues probably seem acceptable to all the other member countries,who accept EU overall.

 

Is France (eg) a country that is wishy washy about it's democracy,sovereignty,independence: Non,Non,Non :-)

 

gbal

[brown dog]

[gbal]

Yes,the EU have prevented malformed bananas from sale in the UK,but so did the supermarkets.

Does anyone want malformed bananas? Are malformed bananas 'sovereignty'? Is not wearing a seat belt,or smoking in a public room what sovereignty is about?

 

Most regions in UK give upsome local powers to central government,and then complain noisily,or appeciate with less fuss when they get some goodies (roads,hospitals etc).

 

ARound 90% of informed views from a very wide spectrum are for 'in'....Bank of England ,big 6 Trades Unions,IMF,Office of Fiscal Studies ,Universities, most Premiers,and international leaders,NFU,Europol,5 NATO Secretary Generals,CBI,British Medical Association,Treasury...and on and on.

 

There is no ''conspiracy' theory sufficintly barmy to even suggest all those have conspired-or are 'fat cats'-there are major differneces between them on many issues,but all agree Uk better in EU

 

Brexit has Putin and Trump. Hmmmmmm....nice guys?

 

Brexit has though worked on a superior campaign of vagueness (we can be great-well we already are!) and economy with the truth (about £,about how EU works,about how the immigant issue can be solved-pretty much about everything that is tangible,and much that is not.)And simply denial or disregard for facts (every country can veto eg Turkey...one vote is enough).( inconsistency of course "EU can't negotiate/won't negotiate' but also 'Maggie got her negotiations","Cameron's were not enough")

 

 

 

GIven the likely demograph of voting turnout,(and it isn't the best of british) the strategy may well be successful; but what a way to decide for future generations,let alone those who will regret it all too soon.

 

If you think not winning in Europe is disappointing for the football team,you'll have a challenge indeed when you lose in virtually every other aspect of life,except being 'english' (well,slightly over 51% of population might be),the rest will simply be challenged,without that illusory comfort blanket).

 

I wish the 49% well,and the minority of the 51% who at least thought honestly and in an informed and decent way,Alas,incorrect slogans won't be a britfix,and it may take another generation to get there.

Enjoy the champagne,the tariffs won't immediately go up by more than 20%..... :-)

 

What the heck,I've got enough pension,and hobbies,and family in Europe,and I can even use the Scottish 'Auld Alliance' hookum,in France. 'Liberty,egality,fraternity' are a decent trade off for 'little english minds"-if it actually matters in the next 20 years.

georges

 

 

 

 

....

[John MH]

Gbal, you vote In, you'll be in a minority but at least you've made your choice. Democracy at work.

[brown dog]

Lot of false stats. (I admit, not the preserve of Remain alone!) 90% of businesses?! ...yep of businesses with an element of significant funding or support from the EU (an EU who -let's remember, are funding them with British money....so that's British money, passed offshore, then given back to Britain on an allocation decided, not by British people, but by Brussels bureaucrats) and 20% price hike?! Well, the tariff is something applied to good that haven't had 20% VAT and x% excise applied to them by the host country. So.....we lose a 20% VAT charge and x% excise on, say, Champagne, and import it...and then pay the charge... and vice versa (if we ever export Champagne!) .....a bit 'double accounting' to claim that as a price hike......lots of naughty lies from both sides.

 

For me, it's about sovereignty.

 

The rest is he said/she said conjecture. This sums it up perfectly:

 

 

 

[brown dog]

[gbal]

Matt,yes champagne 20% was just a throwaway -having more discretionary income than many poor EU countries-if some were to be believed-I can be careless about a few % on fizzy-I prefer Prosecco and Cava anyhow (which is why I am not living in France).

Point was,german cars etc will still be available,just cost more.

 

But I said more seriously "90 % of informed sources....'not 90 % of Uk industry',and elsewhere accepted that some maufacturers did not benefit from EU,as they did not sell there in i which case,most won't sell enough to substantially alter our GNP).

 

What is difficult is to find substantial organisations-let alone as disparate as the ones pro EU,that are Brexit-it's fairly easy to list about 20 or more for in-as I started to do,just from memory,and almost imposssible to get a comparable list for out that is anywhere near the 'in' totals-there may be a few,I haven't noticed,ditto individuals-like premiers of non EU countries. 90% for 'in' seems defensible.

Manufacturing industry does vary-more because EU isn't a customer,than they choose not market there because of the 'redtape' etc etc. 'Financial services' is our biggie though,and there is scarcely any 'Brexit' voices.

 

I don't know messrs Minder and Germann -that's two individuals- I have heard top brass in Canada and Norway strongly advise that their model isn't one the UK would benefit from,and the Swiss have unique reasons,as ever- a major one being UK's finance priviledges.

 

Let's throw in someone who knows about morality-Archbishop of Canterbury (I'm atheist-but accept his moral expertise)-he has strongly (I assume he does not get uncool) conemned some "out" statistics as simply and unforgivingly immoral lies,designed to mislead and primarily motivated by personal ambition.

I don't think personal ambition is on most brexit voters agenda,but it's very likely for the two most presented faces in the campaign,one of whom might bluster away and admit it,the other too smarmy to do so-or maybe more realistic about his chances.Whatever-the issue is not about personalities..it might be about honest campaigning.

A 'fact' can be 'threatening' yet remains a fact (as in "steady on lemmings,cliff ahead"), and if a 'better life' is promoted,as by all politicians, pointing out risks to that,is also as legitimate (as the cabnadian Governor of the Bank of England pointed out in a very clear way only this week-it's his job to do so,if independent analysis points that way-and almost everyone's does,and agrees with his.

 

Probably just correlational,but the majority of those who are Brexit must comprise those who also talk of 'rip of Britain'...it's the same demograph largely. Perhaps they are expecting a decrease in prices if UK leaves.....care to bet a couple of Euros ? (that will only be three old pence very soon,on Brexit banking exchange rates-maybe four old pence,but not much,anyhow.

Not a pressing problem for me,I must have nearly too much red wine,and obviously read too many of the wrong books.But even 'The rational optimist' would have to hold back from Brexit .

 

"sovereignty" has some appeal,clearly-but when examined....it's bananas (or rather 'more sensible prisons'-which Scandinavia have -in/out of EU-which won't go down with the 'punish them demograph-even when the punishment alsomst literally comes out to bite them again.)

I remember the rat joke from my early psychology days (I never actually met one): the rat is sayingto his cage mates: 'I've got this psychologist conditioned-every time I run the maze,he feeds me."

 

Well,maybe so. Words can do all sorts of things.Some are even true,when joined up.That is the bit that messes up lots of words though-other words get in the way.

There is still time for a Damascus u turn-what are these 'sovereignty' issues people like me (ie the EU population,less Brexits) have missed.Especially UK outrages.

I was on balance thinking the EU had nudged the UK in rather desireable general directions (ie my hobbies and wine and Easyjet fares and so on...

 

Some seem to ask "What did the Treaty of Romans ever do for us..... 'if it was Monty Python we could say 'keep £350 million a week away from Scotland and Wales...." ...pal... :-)

 

g

[brown dog]

George,

 

Sovereignty is the whole thing.

 

If you can't see that having our parliament and judiciary held subordinate to unelected, and therefore unaccountable, foreign bureaucrats is an issue - that we are on a slippery slope that will one day put total power in the hands of the unaccountable...that is, a slippery slope towards the creation of an irretrievably totalitarian regime, well,

rather try to explain to you what is transparently wrong with that,

I really ought to ask about the nature and depth of the sand that Remainers have their head stuck in over Sovereignty:

 

Do you just ignore everything Merkel and Juncker have said about their design for ever increasing EU sovereignty , simply because it doesn't suit?!

I can only imagine we're seeing some sort of cognitive dissonance coping mechanism at play:

 

'Even though they all keep telling us what they want to do; they can't possibly actually want to do that. It's far too scary and mean.... and doesn't chime with my belief in basic human goodness. I'll ignore that part.'

 

(Quite a well-known expansionist european totalitarian regime successfully exploited that sort of dissonant disbelief in a rise to power in the 30s. Can you name it? )

[gbal]

Yes Matt< I've heard/reads/thought about the rise of National Socialism to its nasty Nazi end point.Fascism elsewhere in Europe wasn't very pleasant to a liberal either.My father in law was Polish.

I just don't see the EU as going in that direction (nor do I see the extreme right taking over in Europe-though they are a some going along that belief system again.

If such a 'destiny' loomed,we could get out-no country is forcibly kept in the EU-and there are member states in the EU that know full well what totalitarianism means-and did not like it.

I dont think that likely,nor probable in the UK,but we could take some EU values on board meanwhile.

 

Meanwhile,on the evidence to date-what has been given up? I say this as a minority state member of the united states of UK,where there has been transfer of sovereignty-and it's return -to Scotland -last year.

 

Using an emotive word isn't responsible/fair unless there is real evidence-maybe I've missed it-so what has actually been 'foist' on UK,actually it has to be something we can really argue is negative ( the UK goverment imposes laws-smoking eg,justified by overall health considerations,and it refuses popular options-on essentially,the grounds it knows better-probably right too!)

 

AS ,some trade offof 'sovereignty' goes with cooperation-Scotland-England Union eg.

The United States Of American fought a bitter and very expensive Civil War over 'sovereignty' -versus,in it's best form

'Solidarity and moral correctness"- both seem vindicated,though the exercise of power can be queried,no doubting the power (it saved europe from worse).

I haven't thought it through ,but talk of a European army bothers me not-bettr by far than several killing each other ! NATO and UN seem useful too.

 

Bottom line,given there are always 'outs'-Switzerland have as many referenda as can 10,00 citizens sign a petition (I think thousands only of signatures-definitely not a large % of population.)

 

We could therefore-at our choice-get out anytime-there is simply no chance in any real world of a UK ghetto being set up, then being eradicated,or any such-we have pretty decent armed forces,for a start,and we don't have to show the EU army every trick in the book! :-)

 

Ultimately,I'd rather be in a United States of Europe whose values I agreed with (lets say'social democrat') rather than a right/Left wing single state (or united states,of course).I doubt that the UK wil become extreme either. As suggested already though,I find as much empathy with European ideas as I do with UK ones-to be fair,often they are comparable-as the bananas (the EU might say they are concerned with genetic modification,M&S,and Tesco ony with looking good.Some of that massive research money the UK research gets-and we did not when UK funded- can delve into the GM bit.

 

There may be elements of cognitive dissonance-for non Brexit psychologists this is the distortion of informationt to fit your beliefs,or ignoring negative evidence-I summarise 50years of research-I would not like to defend the hypothesis that it is unique to 'IN"-who have an awful oot (even if not quite 90%) of informed data and interpretation and expert opinion on their broad side,wheras Brexit revert to cliams of such generality,theyare as yet untestable (not all false,of course-I have no doubt the British economy would do well outside the EU,but not better,and not even close in the short term. 'WE" are quite good-states are never intercchangeable- Texas has a lot of oil,and California a lot of avant garde ideas-and condors ,again. At it's best it's a team.

I have no concerns about like minded Europeans of decency and vision,mostly at least compatible with mine-if it goes tits up,then I leave. Ditto the UK-I don't have to live here,but at its best it's a great country-I think it can best realiseand enjoy that greatness in Europe,and can contribute substantailly to Europe-and I don't mean money-EU countries contribute based on their prosperity -some bits of UK do very well indeed (the team idea helps here). Much in EU Europe has impressed me,some of the UK has not.

 

Probably there are as many unsavoury citizens in UK pro rata than in the EU. But I've been to Europe a fair bit,and not to every UKIP stronghold inthe UK: I don't think every Brexit shares UKIP prejudices,or fears etc.

But many fewr fewer of 'in' voters have anyting in common.

It's a broader picture-'vision' is preferable -isolationist Britain (will do OK,but great-not likely)

versus a leader in Europe making a substantial contribution to somewhere people aspire to live and work. (well,more of them!)

 

Bottom line: If the EU improves the quality of life of 500 million humans,and more-I would prefer to be part of that.

but if the club becomes one that I would not wish to be a member of,I withdraw from it.

In 50 years or so,it has done more than any other organisation on the positive side,so I'm for staying.

Live and lead now-tomorrow may be an even better day,if not ...leave then.

 

g

 

PS how much of UK "Yes Minister" was exagerated,beyond a grain (gram) of unelected bureaucratic truth? :-)

 

Serious point is that decisions are not best based on issues,but how well each option deals with the issues.

Migration isn't going to stop-indeed we need it,put selfishly-issue is how to manage it-and the EU is now aware of that too....I'd expect some negotiation to come along (and not just with Turkey)-Brexit's best is a city af half the size of Newcastle-well,hardly Utopia. Easy options just don't solve it,let alone the claims about costs-mostly refuted by the data collectors.The UK has free wheelers too-too risky to raise that of course,politically.

[JTO]

"The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe."--- Mikhail Gorbachev

[brown dog]

George,

Read your last bit, and if you read it again, you may see....what it repeatedly says, in a variety of different ways is precisely 'I know we're surrendering our sovereignty, but it can't be as bad as all that ['it doesn't chime with my belief in basic human goodness!' ] and if it is, well we can leave later'

 

The problem with totalitarianism is, by the time people realise, it's too late - and you can't leave later. I refer you to my 1930s example again. Not something I want to cross my fingers about.

[baldie]

"The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe."--- Mikhail Gorbachev

 

 

Thats nails it perfectly.

 

Communism by the back door.

[brown dog]

Interesting vid:

 

Fake 'In' facts from Matt Hancock - Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General - he gets shredded:

 

[bowji john]

 

 

Thats nails it perfectly.

 

Communism by the back door.

 

+1

[Laurie]

"The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe."--- Mikhail Gorbachev

 

 

I'd not seen that quote before, but I'm 100% with you and Baldie. It sums up my views on the EU exactly. Like Brown Dog, I've no faith in basic human goodness when it comes to the EU's leaders. Quite the opposite - a bunch of freeloaders who are determined to ignore the little people like us and force through their vision of a European superstate. Whether that state is economically successful or truly democratic or free is completely unimportant to these people - the ends justify the means.

[Laurie]

I also saw a very apt quote applied to the EC elite and their vast supporting and fanatically committed bureaucracy taken from a poem by the German playwright Bertold Brecht, a long-time socialist who fell out of love with communism after living in 1950s East Germany. The last sentence that I've highlighted in blue is the key one and that's just what the EU's elite would like to do!

 

Die Lösung

Nach dem Aufstand des 17. Juni
Ließ der Sekretär des Schriftstellerverbands
In der Stalinallee Flugblätter verteilen
Auf denen zu lesen war, daß das Volk
Das Vertrauen der Regierung verscherzt habe
Und es nur durch verdoppelte Arbeit
zurückerobern könne. Wäre es da
Nicht doch einfacher, die Regierung
Löste das Volk auf und
Wählte ein anderes?^[4]

 

 

The Solution

After the uprising of the 17th of June
The Secretary of the Writers' Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?

[gbal]

Hmmmm.....I think there is a bit more that just a belief in human goodness,Matt.

 

The 1930s had plenty evidence-it's all in MeinKampf- and there was awareness-much appeasement was about avoiding another World War ! ,or at least in part.

I simply do not see any such evidence -either for a written manifesto of such vehement clarity,or build up of a power base on objectionable basis-I do see lots of positives,which do cost some money,muchh directed where it is needed. Could be a very elaborate sop,or con-but there seems no 'conspiracy'-with a quite different agenda-much more like say,the American break away from Britain,and then the Lincoln resistance to the confederacy- both aggregational,and seemingly non-evil !

 

I did alude to many in Europe who have had the totalitarian experience-which the UK has not had-and they are unlikely to want it again,or get 'caught out' by it.

But the main consideration,for me,is there simply is no evidence at all of a 'negative'totalitarian/fascist' or similar design-hard to see properly bent bananas as part of such a plan.Or the incorporation of so many cultures.

 

The EU may be a bit cumbersome (what administrationof that scale isn't,especially when in development? We see clamour for decentralising and loca decision making in UK too....some makes sense.

 

The failures to date-refugees currently/and emotively-the shame being the emotions are not all helping ones-should be compared with the mess there would be with zero cooperation in Europe- the EU was just notgeared up for the scale of Syrian refugees,added to by economic migrants (most want to work and be decent citizens of course-would that were true of all the 1.6 million britons who contribute but little at the moment. Not the main issue,though.

I'd be somewhat more concerned by the expansion of UKIP type attitudes-or the extreme right in Europe-very much in opposition/competition to the EU. That says to me,the EU does not share the extremists views.

 

So where is the proto fascist clues from the EU about it's real totalitarian agenda (and how does all of Europe miss them-except the radically opposed extreme right,who oppose EU.....??

Angela Merkel is no Trump (she might be a tad socialist).....if ,as Brexit claims,the bureaucrats are really faceless,we can hardly say they are closet nazis,anymore than secret tree huggers (being a bit green isn't too bad these days).

 

Nope,an evidence based approach does not seem to support the EU as totalitarian;ambitious yes,but so far nearly all in ways I'd call social democrat,with admirable intentions,a bit flawed in operationalising. Is the UK a model of supreme efficiency (that actually supported UK farmers nearly so well,overall etc -" The EU means a bit of red tape,but it's our life line,we didn't get that before" is hardly the most damning criticism I've heard from a farmer.

Are we behind Euro thought sometimes-yes. Could UK be a bit more progressive-sometimes.

 

Conspiracy theory might occasionally be right (though it has failed so far)-but when there is no evidence,can that really be claimed as especially good evidnce of a concealed conspiracy?

I can see-not fully understand,and certainly not agree- with those who don't take to good ideas that are not theirs,and who worse yet,cannot see the inadequates in their own back yard-"well,the road is full of holes ,but they are British holes."

I'm happy to have any reasonably working person fill them in.

 

So,what are the actual seeds of eventual European domination by the nasties (EU).

 

If I haven't seen them I'm blinkered,if they cannot be seen, I'm not paranoid.

 

Diagnose.please

 

 

(some neuroscientists have just claimed they can pick out superior footballers;so a test for blackshirs could be researched)

the football stuff is in this weeks 'the conversation' free download.

 

And I'm off to watch the Brown Shirts play. they are of course well disguised in true blue).

Bugger .Czechoslovakia just this moment 6.15 go two behind, deja vu-wish I had not joked about all this.