Thinking on the 204 but which factory rifle?

[sean223]

Hi all. Looking at going down the 204 route as my 223 just isn't giving me the accuracy am after. It's served me we'll as it was my first Center fire rifle. Mybe it's the sporter barrel on my Howa I don't know but ive tried every ammo I could find and it just won't group that we'll. I showed the group on here and everyone said to try different ammo. That I did with about 6 different brands and weights and some home loads a guy made me and not much difference, There always was flyers. Looking for a nice fast round to shoot vermin with, foxes gray crows etc out to 400 yards or so. Am looking at a sako 85 varmint stainless, Remington 700 bro or ruger m77 hawkeye. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[gunnery]

Hi after the choice you have given us I would always go for Remington so many different parts available I have just sold a .20 tac in Remington 700 action fantastic rifle no problem with parts should you want to go down the semi custom route later on

[247sniper]

If your just wanting a factory rifle,mid go for a Tikka or the Sako that you list.

 

The only downside to factory .20 Cals is that are only supplied in a 1:12 twist, this twist rate is right on the limit for the 40 grain Vamx some rifles won't shoot them and some will, but the 39 grain SBK bullet is just within the stability limit, this is due to bullet length and not the 1 grain difference in weight.

 

You choise of a .204 will serve you well for your intended 400 yards range use on vermin etc and some more if you know your rifle system and setup. Here is my .204 in action at 450 yards, in the wind with a mirage etc, no sighter shots, just straight in knowing what your doing and getting reliable repeatable results way out there !

 

http://youtu.be/qaxbeff3-GU

 

You won't be disappointed fella.

 

Steve

[Big Al]

I wouldn't buy a factory .204 as the choice of ammo is poor, add to that the fact that as Steve says these 1:12 twist barrels can be fussy about shooting the 39/40gr bullets and you could quite possibly be no further forward.

 

Now the .20 cal is a superb round so by all means go that route if you want but for the price of a new Sako you could buy a semi-custom with a twist rate and match quality barrel that would allow you to shoot the groups your looking for. Maybe you will in the end have to look at reloading as for sure that will be the best way to get your .20cal recalling singing.

[triggersqueezer]

just my opinion but the 20 cal is the most over rated cal i have owned. if your 223 wont play then is it your loads or the rifle? a good fast twist 223 imo is much better than the .204 if pushing the range yet does the job up close too.don't be taken in by speed reports that is not allways were accuracy is.imo the 223 is inherintly accurate yet i had to fight the 204 to get it to play.

 

my advice stick with 223

[sean223]

I've been reading up on that and I do no what you mean about barrel twist. Seems a 10 would be perfect! but I thought a custom or semi-custom would be a lot more than a new sako. I'll be selling my Howa to part pay for this as the money is low after spending all my money on glass, razor hd gen 11 4.5-27x56 so thought a semi-custom was out of my £££. Where would one find one of these semi-custom rifles with the better twist and what sort money you talking? Am going to start and reload soon!! Going to the USA soon and was going to bring home some reloading gear, so that's why I need to know before I go what round am going to reload for!

[The Gun Pimp]

Laurie may comment - I well remember him winning the UKBRA Factory Sporter Championship with an 'out of the box' 204 Savage LRPV.

[pork chop]

just rebarrel the howa in 204 .cost you half of what a new sako will cost you.i run a 10 twist 204 and still use the same load that i first put together while my rifle was being rebarreled.204 is a great round my 223 got the chop shortly after the 204 came along

[wabbit evaporator]

I have a Sako 75 with a Krieger 1 in 12 .204 barrel in a McMillan A5 stock- I absolutely love it. It shoots both 32 and 39 grn SBKs beautifully. I shoot a lot of corvids, long range rabbits and foxes with it and would not be without it. I have a custom 6mm for longer range stuff or for when the wind is up.

 

Having said all of that, a shooting friend has the 85 stainless laminate varmint and that is every bit as accurate as mine in the field (we both hand load). I prefer mine as I like the shape of the A5 stock but...... His is an excellent rifle. You will notice a world of difference between fit and finish of the 85 and your Howa. In my experience Sako rifles work well out of the box and don't need fettling and playing with.

[Sherlock]

The problem with factory 204's is the standard 12 twist rate is marginal with the 39/40 grn pills.

Even if they shoot - the 12 twist wont optimise the BC on the heavier bullets, therefore you will be firing a bullet with a significantly lower BC than you bargained for.

Any supposed ballistic advantage over the 223 will be diminished.even further - but you wont have the flexiblity to shoot the huge range of 0.224 bullets that the 223 has to choose from.

 

Also consider 204 brass , which by all accounts its pretty hard to get hold orf at the moment. Maybe if a you have the 20 cal itch , then a 20 Pract or Tact would be a good option, as its simply necking the 223 case down to 20 cal. Thats the decision I am making at the moment after buying that Sako L461 on here.

 

Other issue to think about - both Sako's and Tikka's only come with 20 inch tubes - The 204 is noted for not getting the advertised muzzle velocity - but particularly with shorter tubes . I have two shooting pals who run Sako 204's - both guns produce less than 3600 fps if they want top accuracy..... Groups open up dramatically when pushed to get every last FPS out of the round

 

If you want to go 20 cal - I would either opt for a custom tube in a 10 /11 twist and preferably 24 inches and above - if you want any noticible beneifit over the 223.

Otherwise you might have to accept that your best accuracy is with lower BC- 32 grn bullets and your velocity is Waaaaaaay down.

 

Personally , I think you have just had bad luck with your 223 Howa and ended up with a poor shooter... this is not a reflection of this as a calibre and maybe you should also consider a new 223 if you want a factory rifle.

 

 

Kind regards

Alan

[David Hancock]

To put Wabbits' comment into context - "You will notice a world of difference between fit and finish of the 85 and your Howa", you are comparing a £650 rifle to a £1470 rifle.

 

My C63AMG is quicker than my previous M3 but who's counting the extra 30 grand ?

 

I love the .06- .07 I get from my Howa with 50gn Norma, 53 Superformance, 55 Sako and 55 Hornady. In the field it works !

[wabbit evaporator]

To put Wabbits' comment into context - "You will notice a world of difference between fit and finish of the 85 and your Howa", you are comparing a £650 rifle to a £1470 rifle.

 

My C63AMG is quicker than my previous M3 but who's counting the extra 30 grand ?

 

I love the .06- .07 I get from my Howa with 50gn Norma, 53 Superformance, 55 Sako and 55 Hornady. In the field it works !

You're absolutely right. The 85 is a vastly more expensive rifle than the Howa. My point was, for that extra money, the OP would notice a difference. As he mentioned the rifle in question in his original post, I presumed he'd be aware of the extra cost.

 

Nothing against Howa rifles at all.

[David Hancock]

Wabbit, I struck lucky with mine, took ages to decide what to go for - rifle and calibre but we all need a likkle bit of luck.

[Finman]

My .204 is a Sako 75 I Varmint. Other than screwcutting it and popping it into an A5 (which is ambidextrous so I can use it...) I've done nothing to it. It shoots 39gn SBKs at 0.2' all day. Oh, and it is is 1:12 I'd be a bit sceptical about all the claims that it don't stabilise 39gn and 40gn bullets.

 

In answer to the OP, my view is to get a Tikka T3 Varmint in .204 and never look back, all this business with 50gn .20cal bullets is philosophical as far as I'm concerned: the 39gn SBK is good for 400yds. If you wish to shoot further, get a 6mmBR

 

all the best

 

Finman

[gbal]

sean, if your disappointment is with the accuracy of your 223,then the issue is with that rifle,not the calibre or cartridge.

The post so far make fair points about the relative merits of the cartridges,but Alan come closest to your issue. With relatively rare exceptions,Sakos are more accurate than Remingtons,and Howas. Some Tikkas are very good too,but a lot have been bought....

I am not sure about semi custom for Sako price,but 80 % of a rifkes accuracy comes from it's barrel,and a top custom barrel (Kreiger,Brux,Bartlein-that class_) will come in around £750 and that on an older donar action-Sako for me,trued Remington maybe-will edge most factory rifles.

I haven't seen many .06 rifles,custom or otherwise-plenty modest priced factory ones are more like .6:handloadin usually helps,but factory rifles have inbuilt limits...maybe improve on .6,but it wont be .2! (You don't need .2,but more than .5 moa is something of a handicap by 400y.)

 

Get your rifle sorted first,not all are available in 20 cal from factory,all come in 223. Be clear what twist is optimum for your use.

Lots of add ons for Remington-do you want these add ons-and check the costs-Sako don't have much aftermarket choice,in the cheap bells and whistle merchandise, but then don't need it even for the essentials.

I would also not be too worried about one or two bullets not working-be sure though that there are a couple at least that will do what you want.

There are over 120 commercial loads for 223-so what,I'd only use maybe 3 or 4 (though I'd handload anyhow)-if you don't want something,it isn't a buying plus! I don't want a pink Sako,unless the alternative is a bogo in custom paint of any color

 

Within your stated choices,accuracy is more likely from the Sakos than the others,irrespective of calibre or cartridge,and to 400 yards there isn't much one cartridge can do that the other can't. I'd have a Sako (Tikka) in either long before another make,unless the other actual rifle showed outstanding accuracy. I'd have a quality rebarreled older Sako before a new one-the older actions are at least as good,and as above,it's quality barrel that really gives accuracy.(of course,with the custom rebarrel you get the twist/length/profile/personality of your choice too.

Choices indeed. If you want a black one,"you can have it any color so long as it's black" should not be any problem.

Accuracy rules?

gbal

[SWShooter]

Cant fault my CZ527 Varmint .204 , 25.5" barrel , steel mag and nice wood ,threaded ,set trigger , £730 and shoots sub 1 moa with factory ammo.

 

https://www.czub.cz/en/catalog/364-centerfire-rifles-cz/KL/CZ_527_VARMINT.aspx

[Offroad Gary]

R8

[Scotch_egg]

Hi all. Looking at going down the 204 route as my 223 just isn't giving me the accuracy am after. It's served me we'll as it was my first Center fire rifle. Mybe it's the sporter barrel on my Howa I don't know but ive tried every ammo I could find and it just won't group that we'll. I showed the group on here and everyone said to try different ammo. That I did with about 6 different brands and weights and some home loads a guy made me and not much difference, There always was flyers. Looking for a nice fast round to shoot vermin with, foxes gray crows etc out to 400 yards or so. Am looking at a sako 85 varmint stainless, Remington 700 bro or ruger m77 hawkeye. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Trying some reloads a guy made you can not compare to load development for a specific rifle.

 

 

Get the reloading kit and develop your own loads. You may swap the rifle to a spangly .204 and be in the same position and back to square one.

 

 

 

Reloading is a game changer. I would not be suggesting this had you not already eluded to the fact to intend I reload. Some times shooting factory ammo is necessary.

[BuckhurstBen]

Love my sako 85 varmit laminate .204. Would highly recommend it, great action and the set trigger works really well. You wouldn't be dissappointed buying one. With the short 20inch fluted barrel is very handy for chucking around the pick up(so to speak), it handles nicely.

[sean223]

Thanks guys some really good replies here and it's gave me a lot to think about. Am really not sure what to do . Mybe I have over thanked things and blamed the caliber over the barrel not shooting as I'd like. Never thought of rebarreling the Howa to a custom 233 barrel with a tighter twist. Is it just that simple change the barrel and go shoot?? Any ideas as what make or what sort price we talking?? Cheers and thanks again lads.

[rsc1960]

There are plenty of good smiffs on this ear forum,

 

Dave,,baldie

 

Dasherman ,,Neil

 

Etc, it's not my place to say how much the rebarrel will cost buy the gents above but I know a lad who has his 595 done for just under £800. And that was a new 20 cal barrel fitted cut threaded and proofed,

 

RSC

[Montey]

Ok I've got both 204 and 223 hers the thing the 204 is my second my first was a Howa in a custom stock it made me think I was fantastic shooting rabits out past 300yards. Then I shot through my 200 rounds of Remington 32g and started on the next 200 a totall game change I missed the first 12 shots even at 100yards. After much reloading by me and my frend I sold the rifle at auction. My present 204 is a Howa with 28in Ruger barell in a RPA stock . Thers no Rem amo at least in Kent and the new Hornaday stuff needs testing box by box. I have loads in 32g and 39g that work using Reloader 10x but it won't shoot the 40g stuff. I've shot a few foxs with it and the round does a lot of damage. How ever I leave it indorse. I trust my 223 shooting 55g and heavier rounds to realy stop foxs properly the heavier bulet realy has given me more stone dead foxes. If its rabits or corvids the 204 fine, I've not reloaded for the 223 yet as it shoots everything that's 55g and heavier so well. The rifle is built by Dolphin Guns Neska acsion long barel in a Mc Millan 3-5 stock. If I had to keep one rifle it woud be that one. The first to go would be the 204.

[gunner]

Re-barrel howa in 223 or .20 something / bingo , and buy loading kit if you haven't allready . That would cost about the same as a new tikka or sako .

 

One other point is if you have a rebarrel make sure your chamber dimensions at the neck are tight match tolerance , with no turning needed as your just starting out loading , or go for a turn chamber as im sure your perfectly capable . This will be much better launch platform for your chosen cartridge and will help the bullet launch central to your bore AND work the brass less so brass will last longer / using a bushing die with +/- thou bushing .

 

I had my first rebarrel and the chamber dimensions at the neck was .254 when id turned the brass by a thou it was a sloppy 8-9 thou clearance ! Ideally you want 3-5 max ! Very important imo . You cant change it after ! Taa tim

[sean223]

If I were to rebarrel in a 1:8 twist 26" custom barrel would that get me out to 450 yards on fox,rabbit and crows?? What bullet is best for vermin at that distence 400 to 500 yards or is that pushing it a bit with the 223?? Havnt bought reloading gear yet but will be soon!

[lefthooker]

If you're dead set on a change then a rebarrel would be my first suggestion.

Your Howa/GRS would be a good base so just need to decide on your calibre. You should see a big improvement with a custom barrel even with factory ammo.

A 1in8 .223 would allow you to shoot the heavier higher bc rounds to way beyond 500yds if you call the wind properly.

 

I was always a 204 fan and had a custom tikka/krieger set up. A few months back I bought a Steyr Elite 223 just because I love that rifle and have always wanted one. I was worried I'd be underwhelmed by the round but the exact opposite is the case. I find the 75gr TAP absolutely fantastic and get satisfactory results from 55gr and heavier. I was reaching for the Steyr every time to the point where the 204 wasn't getting use. So when I was made a great offer on the 204 I sold it. And don't regret it.

The 204 shots tighter groups but I've never been good at shooting groups and the 223 has held minute of rabbit out to 390 yds so far. Love the look and feel of the Steyr and seems to suit this leftie very well