22 LR Average Group from your gun

[1066]

Excellent Robin - Just a whole new level of skill, accuracy and equipment there. Was the ammunition lot tested and is that an "off the peg" barrel or selected in some way? Do you shoot any 100 yds (Dewar) competitions? If so how do the 100 yds groups compare with the 50 yd groups?

[RobinC]

Thanks

We never batch test,  and never have, just use  what we buy, but nothing other than RWS R50 recommended by Walther.

The rifle is a bit special to suit me (plus the bling!) but the barrel and action is a standard Walther KK500. My wife has the same barrel and action in a Keppeler stock, but her system was from the batch made for the Olympics in 2016, she is the better shot of us both, ex GB squad, and been county champion for the last three years after returning in retirement after a lay off.

Her .22 Walther KK500/Keppeler rifle is in the foreground, her Keppeler 6mmBR is behind it, her twins!

We do mostly ISSF 50 mts, but do shoot Dewers,  not so tight at 100 yds,  but not far off, still shoots comfortable 100's so probably more the shooter.

We visit Walther, and although they test their rifles with all ammo, their main testing and test target stuff is with R50. We shoot 10K a year between us and have never had a duff round, its expensive but you get what you pay for.

 

Have Fun

Robin

[1066]

My old International still shoots quite well but couldn't begin to match that:

Just 25 yards:

[brown dog]

Some incredible targets! Quite humbling.

[No i deer]

That's showing off 🤪

[markymark]

2 hours ago, 1066 said:

My old International still shoots quite well but couldn't begin to match that:

Just 25 yards:

Top work! Reminds me of.....

 

[1066]

😀😀

 

[outlanda]

12 hours ago, Aggy said:

Everything shot should  be part of the group good or bad ,

Yep agreed. Multiple groups of 5 or 10 shots with .22lr ammunition in same conditions at 50yd/m to determine accuracy and to eliminate 'fliers' or a bad shot. Just picking the best group says little about reliable accuracy imho.

[ColinBR]

To be fair. Trying to hold for 10 shots best group is testing to say the least. 

5 shots is more than enough and yes flyers need to be counted. 

I shoot using the above 10 shot targets and have done since competing in my teens. Having then been away from the game for 20 years certainly hasnt helped. 

[1066]

So what we want is match rifle accuracy - magazine fed - not weighing a ton. Why is it so difficult?  With the move towards thinner barrels and the use of tuners in top level .22lr benchrest competitions, weight shouldn't be too much of a problem. 

Magazine feeding may mean some compromise on perfect ignition due to firing pin shape and position.

Good quality factory barrels are available as we see with Robins Walther KK500 and good quality match chamber reamers are available.

There are some good actions and triggers available but we seem to have very few individuals who really specialize in building highly accurate .22lr rifles or better still highly accurate "off the peg" .22lr rifles at an affordable price. 

Good quality sporting .22lr rifles seem to have been stuck in the same accuracy rut for the last 40 years, giving around 1.25" to 1.5" at 100 yards, in the same period centerfire 100 yd group sizes have about halved.

[ColinBR]

This is why I have been looking at the likes of the Voodoo. 

They seem to have something sorted when it comes to accuracy at longer ranges.

Pricey though and I've yet to find anywhere in the uk that imports anything but the barrelled actions. 

I seen Dave made 1 lately with a bighorn action, but doubt it would be comparible price wise. Hopefully wrong on that count. 

[lapua]

The bergara barrelled action was £699, pretty good value. Extra mag was about £50.

[ColinBR]

8 minutes ago, lapua said:

The bergara barrelled action was £699, pretty good value. Extra mag was about £50.

Got any links? 

[lapua]

14 minutes ago, ColinBR said:

Got any links? 

Speak to Tiff Dew if you want one. Plenty on google about the b14 rimfire

[ColinBR]

1 hour ago, lapua said:

Speak to Tiff Dew if you want one. Plenty on google about the b14 rimfire

Does he have a shop or contact? 

Thanks

[Ronin]

I’d be cautious and do research with regards certain brands reliability and longevity ,,,,

[outlanda]

8 hours ago, lapua said:

The bergara barrelled action was £699, pretty good value. Extra mag was about £50.

I'm interested in this Tiff. 

[John MH]

5 minutes ago, outlanda said:

I'm interested in this Tiff. 

He's not Tiff.

[outlanda]

16 minutes ago, John MH said:

He's not Tiff.

Yes thank you I know.

 

[RobinC]

A good start for any one regardless of rifle or barrel is ammunition. We coach target shooting, and we always stress, use only the best ammo.

.22rf is a very basic cheap calibre, compare it to modern full bore calibres, a perfectly sized 6mm BR case, as ours, fire formed to our chambers, primers top spec BR ones, powder weighed to 0.02 gr, bullets matched, seated to precision to match the rifling, then think .22rf!

.22rf, crude cases, primers spun into the rim, small volume of powder (bigger variables), very crude light lead bullet, bullet seating? Its just jammed in the case.  I'm surprised they are as accurate as they are!!

Give your self a head start, if you want the best accuracy,  use they best they make, and that is the top quality match stuff, RWS R50 is our choice, or Lapua.  

The Russians did hand make some .22rf in the communist years, we believe Sergei Martynov (allegedly) used the last of it, in another well known manufacturers box, to win the 2012 Olympics and set the then world record.

Have Fun

Robin

[RobinC]

Sporting rifles?

I'm not a game shooter, but how often do you need a second shot? Do you really need a magazine?  If the first shot is accurate? And how long to hand feed one?

Second hand match 54 Anschutz's  are easy to buy, often in the £250 bracket, or even BSA 12/15's, very cheap, both very accurate, target level, put it in a sporting stock would make a nice .22 game gun, and more accurate than any sporting rifle.

Have Fun 

[1066]

The Bergara obviously shoots well but would it be any better than a good P94s Finnfire, Tikka T1x, CZ457 etc.  I really don't think any of them would give a good match rifle much of a run, I have a P94s with a Lilja match barrel and I know it wouldn't begin to compete with a match rifle.

The Voodoo does seem to be a step ahead of the rest at the moment, but again a couple of good groups shown on a youtube clip doesn't tell much of a story.

I'm really surprised there's not a well known winning combination out there somewhere - eg. CZ action/Walther match barrel/ aluminium/modular stock/Timney trigger.

[1066]

5 minutes ago, RobinC said:

Sporting rifles?

I'm not a game shooter, but how often do you need a second shot? Do you really need a magazine?  If the first shot is accurate? And how long to hand feed one?

Second hand match 54 Anschutz's  are easy to buy, often in the £250 bracket, or even BSA 12/15's, very cheap, both very accurate, target level, put it in a sporting stock would make a nice .22 game gun, and more accurate than any sporting rifle.

Have Fun 

I agree there Robin - I had for a long time an CM-2 Russian target rifle with a shortened barrel and screw cut for a moderator that shot very well for field use. The BSA Century was a bit of a half way house "target" rifle with a 5 shot magazine but that was introduced 60 years ago.

[Ronin]

The sporting rifles appear to have average accuracy - by that I mean they group ok rather than single hole - if I can use Robins target as the “what to strive for goal”

 

Ive looked long and hard at 22 rimfire for myself to practice with and to conduct some vermin control and come to the conclusion that I do not need a repeater 

 

I’d rather have accuracy over mortar fire capability 

Having considered many repeaters and discounted because of known issues or less than adequate accuracy I located a Anchutz 1807 I plan to train with to provide cheap (ish) practice 

Once it arrives and I set it up I’ll put some groups as like many others I’d like to see how my rifles shoot over repeat groups not just one or two 

Had I been able to locate a Winchester 54 I’d have bought one of those 

 

[lapua]

The bergara would shoot even better if i put a decent trigger in it. Next upgrade, probably a pmii also.

for PRL type training, id say mag is essential, the 10 shot ones are excellent 

contact tiff via facebook on the PRL page