UK Distributors too greedy?

[Popsbengo]

Catch 22, what's your argument with in it for profit? It's excessive profit that's the nub. So do you have any real world experience to back up your assertion that it's excessive profit or are you surmising this?

[bradders]

Us RFDs and other dealers should start a thread where we slag off customers who are too bleaty.....they always want a discount, they never want to pay more 

[Kalahari]

Quick, put me on this list! I want to be on Bradder's list! 😀

 

David.

[bradders]

41 minutes ago, Kalahari said:

Quick, put me on this list! I want to be on Bradder's list! 😀

 

David.

Are you a bleaty whiner always looking for a couple of quid off?

[baldie]

My typical answer when asked for, say 10% discount on labour, is to ask the customer how he would feel, if his gaffer took 10% out of his weekly wage for HIS discount......there is no difference.

We all have to eat.😃

Regarding the bulk tubs of powder ? I still get 3.5kg tubs of vhit, as any dealer can ?

[dave thorniley]

+1 what baldie said,  baldie bradders and all the great gunsmiths over here, are making top quality bespoke rifles for the shooters in the uk, without them  shooting would be dead, support them,  they are just like us, they have a living to make and mouths to feed, stop whinging and moaning about prices in the uk.  ive heard it all before it only costs $25 in the states. well if it does go and get it.  but i for one will always support uk business/dave.

[Kalahari]

1 hour ago, bradders said:

Are you a bleaty whiner always looking for a couple of quid off?

You mean I have to qualify for this list??? Don't think I can manage that, not competent to qualify. Just wanted to be on a list!!! 😁

 

David.

[ds1]

As a training provider we tried for the last 3 years to hold our prices, just adjusting for ammunition prices from our suppliers. This was a mistake. This year we have to increase our  base course prices by around 20% to stand still. Now when you say that people think “gouging “ however most people can understand  when you explain that prices have gone up - food, accommodation, fuel and mainly in our case the exchange rate has dropped from 37 czk for 1 gbp to 28 czk for 1 gbp. The problem is getting the opportunity to explain. Lesson learned though, small annual increases of around 7% are the way forward for us.

On a personal note I decided to treat myself to another “me” pistol. I had tried and liked the Sig x5 Supermatch. This model is imported into the US as a German made product although Sig has a manufacturing facility in the US. The European and US prices seem comparable. I also tried a STI DVC Omni pistol, full retail in the US is around $3800 but retails here (Europe) for around $4800. This is not unreasonable given import paper cost, transport cost, broker cost, proof cost and the general hassle, time and headaches the importer has to go though. For an importer these are a specialty item with a limited market and a lot of cash can get tied up in having just 5 or 6 items in n stock. I know because I have imported rifles and optics from the US myself and I would much sooner pay someone else a few quid and not have the hassle. Profit is not a dirty word.

 

 

[Moorlander]

I`m certainly not against gun shops making a living , they are already too few and far between ,its only a matter of time before all transactions of firearms have to be done through an RFD so the more the better,  like I have suggested certain distributors/importers seem to do extremely well but very few gunshops seem to be doing so.

[Moorlander]

3 hours ago, baldie said:

My typical answer when asked for, say 10% discount on labour, is to ask the customer how he would feel, if his gaffer took 10% out of his weekly wage for HIS discount......there is no difference.

We all have to eat.😃

Regarding the bulk tubs of powder ? I still get 3.5kg tubs of vhit, as any dealer can ?

I`ve had similar in the motor trade ,I get asked  "Can I have a discount ?" my response is usually " Only if you`ll do a days work for free for me"  some get it and some look confused.

[Borisserge]

I for one feel that if you can find your deal in the USA at your discounted price, then excellent, but remember the joy of possible ITAR restrictions, duty etc.

Currently we are lucky to have the opportunity to shop in the EU without problems, and yes, there are deals to be had.

I'm not sure who owns the German (or French, Czech etc) equivalent of gmk, maybe another part of the Beretta family. Again though, there are deals to be had in shops throughout the EU and the UK. There was a shop up here who sold a new Ruger 6.5CM for loss (relative to other shops could buy it in for incl vat), just so they could have a sale, but also sold a moderator and ammo at full price.

As for our RFD's every one has their typical hourly rate, but depends on if they are vat registered or not may give a slight difference in your overall price for the job.

 

Discounts....buy 5 guns and I'm sure you might be in a better position to haggle lol

 

At the end of the day, I would rather support our trade, spend the money. When our shops, RFD's and everything else close because of a few pounds saved here and there (which tbh you won't be thinking about when you pull the trigger), it will be then too late.

 

[dave thorniley]

+1 above

[Breacher]

I was quite touched recently when a buyer for one of my bipods said he could have got the same bipod direct from Germany cheaper ( though same total when postage was added ) but chose me as he preferred to support UK dealers and especially small time guys like me.

Compare that to the guy who sent 8 e mails trying to negotiate a discount and got upset when I said that the 2 hours wasted on e-mails could have helped him pay full price had he spent them at work earning !

He then tried to convince me he was one of the more respected shooters in UK and just having my bipod seen used by him would increase my sales. Hmmmmmm ok then.......

[Popsbengo]

I'm reminded of the old saying, "the shop down the street is  £10 cheaper but unfortunately they're out of stock"  The response:   "Fair enough, I'll mark down my prices by £10 when I'm out of stock too!"

Support your local RFD, I for one appreciate the free knowledge and advice on offer for free.

 

[gunner]

5 hours ago, Breacher said:

I was quite touched recently when a buyer for one of my bipods said he could have got the same bipod direct from Germany cheaper ( though same total when postage was added ) but chose me as he preferred to support UK dealers and especially small time guys like me.

Compare that to the guy who sent 8 e mails trying to negotiate a discount and got upset when I said that the 2 hours wasted on e-mails could have helped him pay full price had he spent them at work earning !

He then tried to convince me he was one of the more respected shooters in UK and just having my bipod seen used by him would increase my sales. Hmmmmmm ok then.......

lol whats his name? If u can't put it then maybe his county? May of been a good friend of Michael Yardley .

[Breacher]

He was one of those long sleeve top under a garish short sleeve top festooned with sponsorship logos wearing types.

[baldie]

One of those middle aged men in Lycra....that look like a black pudding......🤣

[chaz]

43 minutes ago, baldie said:

One of those middle aged men in Lycra....that look like a black pudding......🤣

😂 Corker!

[Chanonry]

On 1/2/2019 at 8:02 AM, Moorlander said:

there is no good reason why European made firearms should be more expensive in the UK/ Europe than they are in the US/Canada/Aussie who all have to pay import duties , I believe it's price fixing / controlling.

Well, there is isn't there. The US is the largest gun market in the world (I think) so if you are a big brand, you have to be there. Equally the Americans are not a bunch of tarts and are keen on buying American. With lots of large local suppliers, and some very cheap guns in the market, they set the price. If you want to be there you have to compete with that even if that means you are making lower margins. Its competition. Now if it was you and me we may not like that business very much but high volumes at low margins can still deliver a decent profit number.

Other markets where the US manufacturers have higher costs (duties, supply chain, regulatory compliance all cost) mean the retail price required is higher.  The local guys can therefore get a better price point and a bigger margin per sale.

Its economics.

One of the other reasons it is hard to get stuff in this country is that market is so small suppliers can't be arsed to serve it for such small $ numbers. A $4000 order has the same hassle as a $40,000 order .They have bigger customers in other countries (e.g.. Germany) where they can make the same $ with less hassle.

 

[bradders]

1 hour ago, Chanonry said:

Well, there is isn't there. The US is the largest gun market in the world (I think) so if you are a big brand, you have to be there. Equally the Americans are not a bunch of tarts and are keen on buying American. With lots of large local suppliers, and some very cheap guns in the market, they set the price. If you want to be there you have to compete with that even if that means you are making lower margins. Its competition. Now if it was you and me we may not like that business very much but high volumes at low margins can still deliver a decent profit number.

Other markets where the US manufacturers have higher costs (duties, supply chain, regulatory compliance all cost) mean the retail price required is higher.  The local guys can therefore get a better price point and a bigger margin per sale.

Its economics.

One of the other reasons it is hard to get stuff in this country is that market is so small suppliers can't be arsed to serve it for such small $ numbers. A $4000 order has the same hassle as a $40,000 order .They have bigger customers in other countries (e.g.. Germany) where they can make the same $ with less hassle.

 

Very true

you have to realise what the American Shooting market is like, experiencing somewhere like Cabelas on a Sunday attention where ordinary people treat the firearms section and ammo shelves like you would see in a supermarket over here, filling their baskets within ammo and components.

I’d never seen anything like it, and this is a place where you can walk into Walmart and but a Rem 700 or similar for $350...or less

I know a rFD here that shipped 4million onus’s of 5.56 to the US to sell, you may think that’s a lot of ammo, but it’s only the equivalent of 4000 people buying 1000 reds each....and in a country of 200 million gun owners, that is nothing

[MrCetrizine]

I first realised how big the US consumption of ammo was when i walked into a gun shop in Texas a few years ago and they were selling .22LR by the pound. There were barrels of it with scoops like Woolworths pick and mix. You scooped what you wanted into plastic bags then they weighed it and charged what seemed like a tiny amount of money.

[Catch-22]

On 1/2/2019 at 1:50 PM, Popsbengo said:

Catch 22, what's your argument with in it for profit? It's excessive profit that's the nub. So do you have any real world experience to back up your assertion that it's excessive profit or are you surmising this?

I have no issue with making profits at all. I believe in making profits - its healthy. But so is savvy consumerism. As a consumer I like to shop around for the best price. Don't we all?

A good example of what I'm on about is ive recently purchased 3000x 6.5mm 123g Lapua Scenar and 3000x 300g .338cal Lapua Scenar in bulk from a Lapua distributor abroad. After taxes, shipping and even the dealers profit margin, it was over £550 cheaper for me to do so than buying exactly the same from the Lapua importer/distributor here in the U.K.

The foreign dealer is still making their margin, they're paying taxes, business rates, employees wages etc etc. And the included shipping wasn't cheap - about £70. So where's the  £550 difference going for the UK importer?? 

But hey, that's ok. Not begrudging the extortionate markup. As any sensible consumer, I'd rather be wise with my money and keep the huge saving I've made for a future rebarrel down the line. That'll be money for a UK engineering business which might otherwise have just gone unnecessarily into someone else's profit margins.

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, Catch-22 said:

I have no issue with making profits at all. I believe in making profits - its healthy. But so is savvy consumerism. As a consumer I like to shop around for the best price. Don't we all?

A good example of what I'm on about is ive recently purchased 3000x 6.5mm 123g Lapua Scenar and 3000x 300g .338cal Lapua Scenar in bulk from a Lapua distributor abroad. After taxes, shipping and even the dealers profit margin, it was over £550 cheaper for me to do so than buying exactly the same from the Lapua importer/distributor here in the U.K.

The foreign dealer is still making their margin, they're paying taxes, business rates, employees wages etc etc. And the included shipping wasn't cheap - about £70. So where's the  £550 difference going for the UK importer?? 

But hey, that's ok. Not begrudging the extortionate markup. As any sensible consumer, I'd rather be wise with my money and keep the huge saving I've made for a future rebarrel down the line. That'll be money for a UK engineering business which might otherwise have just gone unnecessarily into someone else's profit margins.

You misunderstand my point. It's just that you don't have access to the accounts of the business in the UK so you can't know they're making "excessive profits".  I suggest you don't jump to the conclusion that the more costly supplier in the UK is "ripping customers off". You don't know what their overhead is so you can't know if profits are excessive.

Your point about shopping around is well-made, we all like a bargain. Take a look at the average high-street and see how the economics of 'cheapest is best' work.  If you're OK with seeing local RFD go out of business then carry on.

 

[Catch-22]

26 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

You misunderstand my point. It's just that you don't have access to the accounts of the business in the UK so you can't know they're making "excessive profits".  I suggest you don't jump to the conclusion that the more costly supplier in the UK is "ripping customers off". You don't know what their overhead is so you can't know if profits are excessive.

Your point about shopping around is well-made, we all like a bargain. Take a look at the average high-street and see how the economics of 'cheapest is best' work.  If you're OK with seeing local RFD go out of business then carry on.

 

What a load of old cobblers. I'm not on about my local RFD. I have no beef with the end of the chain - I feel for them quite honestly, they have it hard. I personally know a few and see how much they have to graft for a living. And I do support my local RFDs wherever I can FWIW - however much of what I want/need isn't available through them.

My issue is with those who are SUPPLYING the local RFDs. The main importers/distributors set the RRP prices and the local RFDs have to scrape whatever small margin they can from the sales. It'll be this practice of over egging the RRP set here that will be the demise of your local friendly RFD.

And regarding 'cheapest is best', I completely agree that it isn't good most of the time. But my example was like for like. So would you buy the same brand new model car ( exact same spec, guarantees, options etc) from Dealer A down the road for £30k, or Dealer B a bit further away for £20k? You'd be a mug to not go for the obvious. 

[Popsbengo]

16 minutes ago, Catch-22 said:

What a load of old cobblers. I'm not on about my local RFD. I have no beef with the end of the chain - I feel for them quite honestly, they have it hard. I personally know a few and see how much they have to graft for a living. And I do support my local RFDs wherever I can FWIW - however much of what I want/need isn't available through them.

My issue is with those who are SUPPLYING the local RFDs. The main importers/distributors set the RRP prices and the local RFDs have to scrape whatever small margin they can from the sales. It'll be this practice of over egging the RRP set here that will be the demise of your local friendly RFD.

And regarding 'cheapest is best', I completely agree that it isn't good most of the time. But my example was like for like. So would you buy the same brand new model car ( exact same spec, guarantees, options etc) from Dealer A down the road for £30k, or Dealer B a bit further away for £20k? You'd be a mug to not go for the obvious. 

Cobblers? But you buy direct from abroad so where's your local RFD in that chain? I refer you to my earlier question; how do you know its' excessive profits?