Realistic results from a Remmy 700 varmint at 1000

[22lrman]

Any feedback on the sort of accuracy I can expect at 1000 with the following setup. Just shooting for fun and to get some long range experience. Stickledown keeps calling so want to get it out of my system. I like a good challenge

 

R700 308 varmint 26inch in a choate ultimate varmint stock, Timney trigger. Muzzle crowned concentric.

sightron 8-32 x 50 LRMOA scope with Burris signature rings, 20MOA rail

off Harris bipod or bag.

New lapua brass cci200 primers, SMK155 Palma set to 2.87 OAL neck sized with lee collet die.

With this setting the jump is BIG around 100thou. To get 20thou the bullet will more or less fall out of case.

Vit N140 at 41 grains. Primers seem to crater slightly around firing pin hole at this so havent gone much further, 2700fps. Altthough quickload shows well below max pressure with this. Can I push it anyone?

Also tried BLC2 at starting 45 grains with similar results.

 

Would like to shoot the hell out of it for a year to gain experience more than anything, maybe enter a few comps for the experience.

Cheers.

[duey]

I would suggest trying a bit less jump, possibly 50-60 thou and if you can get a FPS around 2850

 

41 gr N140 seems a bit low to me for you to be getting primer problems but every rifle has its own set up, but maybe try some federal match 210 primers or a bench rest primer and see if that helps

[banus02]

good evening ,not a range shooter but use 44.5 grs n140 155gr amax no pressure signs in lapua or Winchester cases using federal210 primers col 2800.used in a ruger precision rifle.have been up to 46.3 grs but had stiff bolt and extactor mark on case. only 20 inch barrel but this 44.5 gr cronoed at 2660 fps 600yards no problem not shot further as I don't use ranges

[justin credible]

I would think that the accuracy at 1000 would be shocking as you do not have enough muzzle velocity and you are likely to be bordering subsonic at 1000.

Stick to 900 yards or less to avoid being disheartened or switch to RS52 powder. Higher speed and less pressure than n140.

[bradders]

Good evening/good morning/good whatever

Stickledown makes or breaks champions

 

When David Calvert won the Imperial recently and earned his 3rd Queens Medal, he shot 155gn GGG, and didn't worry about the recipe

[The Gun Pimp]

22lrman - to get a relatively short-barrel 308 to perform at 1000 yards will require you to maximise on ballistics.

 

Your existing recipe isn't doing this. In fact, 41gn may be way too low - hence the cratering - giving the appearance of over-pressure, when in fact it's due to the case not gripping the chamber and putting all the pressure on the bolt-face.

 

I'd take Bradders advice and buy a box of GGG and see how you go. You should be able to keep 'em in the four-foot diameter 'black' - if it's not too windy - but bullets might be going through the target sideways............

 

Enjoy the challenge! If you do - work on your own loads to improve on the GGG.

[That bald headed Geordie]

Many years ago now I started entering 1000yd benchrest competitiions at the Diggle ranges and used a Rem 700 VSSF with a 26inch barrel. Because of the 'excessive' jump using 155s I used the Sierra 190 gr HPBT to enable me to keep a bullet diameters worth in the case neck and also to be about 20 thou off the lands. The kick was a little stiff on recoil but I used to get a 5 shot group between 8 inches and up to 15 inches on a good day. As for the powder load I cannot remember but I think I used Viht N140. So try a longer heavier bullet as it worked for me.

[JSC]

I don't know how you're getting 2700fps with 41gn of N140 and a 2155. I've got a 26" Rem 700 and needed 43.8gn of N140 to get 2645fps!

 

Although that bullet will be subsonic at 1000 with that MV, it won't necessarily mean the groups will be shockingly bad, although if you want good groups in all conditions past 800yds, you really need to try and keep most bullets at a terminal velocity of Mach 1.1, which will be nigh on impossible with your current rifle/bullet combination. I did it for 1000yd shooting using the 155gn Lapua Scenar but IMO that's not as good a bullet as the 2155. You need to be around 2900fps to keep the bullet at M1.1 at 1000yds.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the jump at this stage. You can jump bullets a long way and still achieve good accuracy.

 

I used my 700 in F/TR competitions for a couple of years and shot it out to 1200yds with reasonable success, but that was with heavier bullets and in particular the Berger Tactical 175gn, which is possibly the best choice for what you want to do. Get that going at 2650-2700fps and you'll be amazed at the groups you can get.

 

So you've got two choices really - try to get to 2900fps with the 2155 using a different powder or switch to a heavier bullet.

 

The comments about using GGG are valid, but with a 26" barrel the velocities will still be marginal. TR shooters are using longer barrels and chambers cut to suit this type of ammunition.You're stuck with 26" and a relatively sloppy chamber and long throat to cope with a variety of ammunition.

[drum]

Might need verifying by those more in the know than I but some rem 700 firing pins crater the primer regardless of pressure. My last one certainly did.

Drum

[BoltHead]

I've read that some Rem 700s had a slightly bevelled firing pin hole designed to cause cratering to thicken the primer brass around the firing pin to prevent pierced primers.

 

The cratering you are seeing is normal on the gun manufactured between 2008 and 2010. We began putting a bevel on the face of the firing pin hole in order to allow the primer cup to flow back and thicken the primer at the most likely point of failure during the firing pin strike. This was to reduce the likelihood of a pierced primer and greatly reduce the risk of injury to the shooter overall.
Carl Timonen @ Remington
[End Quote]

 

My .260 Rem from 2009 craters primers even with starting loads, whereas in my .308 Win from 2015 the primers appear normal.

 

So if you rifle has a bevelled firing pin hole it may be why you are seeing cratering on such light loads. Hope this helps.

[gbal]

lrman,some of us have been down this path-so enjoy it!

There is much to take in,but filter it too-I asume you are very keen to get shooting,know a fair bit about reloading ,and want to enjoy learning about long range...and don't expect to be competitive for a while-more for interest and fun........all good starters

 

Your kit is fine,given the above-the 308 isn't competitive in open class shooting,especially beyond 750 or so-there are just better tools now;and technical reasions like BCs and transonic speeds....nor do you need uber super handloads-it's just not about small moa improvements.....see below for reasons.

 

There is quite a lot to be said for GGG and he like....see it all in context....if you want to shoot 100y Bench Rest you need a rifle capable of .2 max precision for 5x5 shots-the shooter will add some error,and podiums needs 25 shot aggregates of .25 ish-likewise 1000BR top competitors tend to need sub .5 moa precision,though the shooter contribution is greater (wind is trickier!)....other shooting can be less precision oriented...see below-many shooters obsess about ammo-and cause themselves grief in the process-well,don't because.....see below..

 

OK some real(istic) 308 Rem 700 competition data-adding to Les' post 7 above-this is the VSSF rifle: best load was 190moly SMKs @ 2560 (43.6 V140 in this rifle),190 scenars were ok too-though 155s were not so good/consistent (rifle specific-all are good bullets-newer 175s might be the current go to bullet).

(note your 155@2700 is exactly the Black Hills SAAMI load with 155Amax@2700,BC.435-adequate,giving a 1000y drift in 10mph wind of 112 inches;the VSSF loads reduce thaat a tad but only to 95 inches).

 

Fairly typical real comp data were: 12/15/13 and 14/12/11 inch 5 shot groups at 1000,on days when a couple of other Rem 308s shot 17/18/16 and 22/18/12 in factory class (Diggle).The Light Guns (custom,mainly 6.5s-x284then-were shooting 7-17 inches,mostly the smaller end of that ......

The VSSF did shoot a few 5/6 inch small groups,but at least as many 20 inch,and most were as above-lowish teens.

The rifle recoiled too much-esp with the heavier bullets -to be a pleasure to shoot ,and it's lack of weight,especially the light stock design,made it impossible to fire fast-as is now the fashion,5 shots in 20 seconds to catch a steady wind.

But a good learning tool.Realistic-remember,(factory 308s were) mostly used by beginners,not expert long range wind readers....who use/deserve better rigs-because they have the skill to benefit from precision technical/engineered improvements in the rifle/ammo/scope.

 

Two major factors are operating-the intrinsic engineeered precision of the rifle/ammo/scope AND the contribution of the shooter to overall accuracy/grouping (as distance increases,the second dominates-and that is why -given a decent level of precision,attention should focus on shooter skill-which means wind reading (and why a good shooter with so so GGG will prevail over a lesser shooter with slightly better ammo....and ditto rifle/scope...within limits......read on....

 

 

Let's compare outcomes under high confidence conditions-range is +/- 1 yard accurate,wind reading is +/- 1 mph accurate (all the way to target remember,not just what the hand held kestrel correctly says);ammo SD is 10fps; 308 175SMK@2600...though pattern holds for most comparable loads.... how do rigs shoot.....

 

1/2 moa-1moa-1.5moa rigs at 5 inch bull at 1000 y % hits are 11-10-6......................and at 600y 73-53-34

1/2 moa-1moa-1.5moa rigs at 10 inch bull at 1000 % hits are 40-35-25...................and at 600y 99-93-84

!/2 moa -1moa-1.5moa rigs at 15 inch bull at 1000 %hits are 67/61/51....................and at 600y 100-100-98

 

Some careful interpretation of all this suggests that there are very meagre gains from developing a .5moa load rather than a 1.5 moa load if you are trying to hit a 5 inch bull at 1000 (even with good shooting confidence)...its only a 5% hit increase from 6 to 11 %...and it's clear why....the 5 inch bull is already right on the precision limits of even a 1/2 min rig,so ANY shooter error means a miss...

 

...of course if you have a 10 inch bull,then a 25 to 40% improvement might be a better reward for all your reloading etc work-IF you can get such an improvement.

...and if you plink away at 15 inch targets at 600yards,all the rigs are good enough for almost 100% hits....happy days,but ...wait....

 

....what happens if you cannot judge wind to 1 mph accuracy....well,performance drops accordingly of course...and no load development refinement will compensate nearly enough(just as it could not for 5 inch bull at 1000y)....and the same is true for all the parameters...SD,MV,etc....

 

NOPE-accuracy drop off (shooter firing solution errors-mainly wind-dominates all the engineering/ammo precision/performance factors...always assuming these were all reasonably OK;it's closer for the very best shooters/rigs-though even then,few think the rig is responsible for a dropped shot,it's shooter error).

 

 

So a moderate moa rig-and corresponding ammo (maybe like GGG) may well be adequate....and more than adeqwuate for some combinations of range and target size....good news for the beginner....and many others -endessly finessing loads just is not likely to repay the effort,and definitely not as much as improving shooting skill (wind reading).

Alas,improving skill isn't so easy as spending money and improvement is not a 'buy more/better kit' issue- once decent gear is used-it's not then about the tools,it's about the shooter.

 

...downside is of course,as conditions (wind) get tougher,shooter skill plays ever more role...(actually,it's generally true,except for really 'gimme/easy' targets).

 

Your INVESTMENT should take account of all this-not just £,but practice time (wind reading-always,always,always) V finessing loads(1moa is easy,is better really better-only sometimes.)

 

Many shooters might see some benefits too in this kind of analysis,trading off shooting skill and equipment precision.

Analyses for SD of velocities,pure velocities,BC etc etc tend to confirm the general position-diminishing returns ...super actual performance does not derive from the reloading bench,or at least is not in proportion to detailed prep.( 'feel good'/confidence might be helped,even justified-BUT if skill then lets you down,there is no locus of weakness other than in the shooter.) :-)

 

....that said,there are probably are also diminishing returns for honing shooting skill,but very,very few shooters have reached the skill level where that has to be a serious consideration..... :-)

 

BUT anyone starting a new kind of shooting will benefit-100y Bench rest competitors just must have .25 groups,fox shooters are better served with different skills.Varminters needs differ again...

 

For long range 'fun shooters' yet another mix.....and one that might well be agreeable in terms of costs and the priority to actually shoot quite a lot.....as the OP wishes!

 

308 factory shooting can be reasonable.Good,Good,Good. You will get a kick out of it. Enjoy.

 

gbal

[baldie]

Change your primers to BR2,s. this will lessen the appearance of cratering. ALL remingtons do it.

 

People worry far too much about primer cratering. It isn't a good indicator of pressure. Stiff bolt lift IS.

 

Worry about primers when they get as flat as a witches tit, pierce , or come past your lug hole.

[Brillo]

This remind me of a couple of posts I wrote on here when I first joined this community.

 

Firstly the low velocity thing; on my first trip to Bisley, and as a guest of the Dorset Riflemen, my mate was shooting his AI AW and his favourite load was very similar to the OPs. That load gave outstanding accuarcy up to 600 yards but at 1000 yards the bullets were tumbling. They tumbled so bad they put holes the size of 10 pence pieces in the target.

 

I was shooting a Sako TRG at the time and my set-up was giving about 2800 fps. This got me on the target but that was about it.

 

I knew I wasn't going to get much more out of the Viht N140 /SMK 155 #2156 bullet combo so I tried H4895, which I was told would increase my muzzle velocity.

 

As per normal safe loading practice, I started with a lowish load, but I saw pressure signs straight away.

 

After advice received on this forum it turned out to be just as The Gun Pimp stated earlier, the chamber pressure was insufficient to expand the case and pushed it hard against the bolt face. Increasing the load removed these pressure signs and I eventually got that rifle to shoot at 2900 fps with that powder.

 

Since then RS 52 has become available and the new owner of that TRG happily shoots it at 2900 fps.

[22lrman]

BRILLIANT guys . Thanks very much for all the feedback. Some of you sleep less than me by the looks of it! As long as I can get on target (and not the lane next to me) with a reasonable chance, ill be a very happy bunny its all about the smiles. I normally just keep shooting till I feel the kit is holding me back. Then look at something else.

 

Some really great comments on the loads, ill get some photos of the bolt head and primers loading up when I get it out this weekend. It's nice to know I probably have a bit in reserve, the primers are not pancaked at the edges yet. The bolt is never stiff lifting, but sometimes wont pull back. Im sure something that needs looking at as I sent it back under warranty a few months ago to get the headspace adjusted (2 thou below bottom limit), and now sometimes now wont pull without a little wiggle even if nothing is in the chamber. Chamfers on the back of the lugs are now more or less gone compared to factory bolt, but thats another story....

 

Ill definitely look at H4895 as its at my local shop, and heard some good feedback on the Sierra TMK 168. Also guess I should check charge weights against another scale for sanity sake. Most people think 2700 is a little high for 41gn. Ill check my chrono notes...

I think I can squeeze a little more towards rifling with the 155s, but not much.

thanks again all, ill try and keep you posted on my first outing .

[The Gun Pimp]

Please - no more headspace !!!! If you're loading your own ammo and the rifle has passed proof, stop worrying about headspace.

[pe4king]

IMHO Using 155gr bullets to 1000+ you need to be pushing them to about 2950fps I use 46gr of N140, gets them there and safe in all of the 308 rifles I have owned.

[duey]

I have used 46gr N140 with 155gr Scenars with good results in the past, but with the bullet loaded out as close as possible to lands in a factory remmy, with the downside that they wouldn't fit in the mag, which was fine on the range, but when hunting I sized to the mag and adjusted powder to suit ( and no I wasn't hunting with Scenars )

[Swarovski1]

Ive shot a a 155 grainer in a 308 at 1000yds hundreds of times with a 26 inch barrel. it can produce some good accuracy, as bradders said stickledown can make or break champions

as baldie said most remmys crater the primer, slack firing pin hole,

41grs is real low, that wouldnt perform at all,45grs or more would be the norm for 155 grainer, i tried scenars, the two different 155gr smks and 175gr smks, i cant say any of them were outstanding, I did have some good days, I dont think my barrel liked the scenars, tried everthing to make them shoot, best i had out of them was using aa 2520, not sure on the lovex equivelent, the 2156 smks were my fave, i used rs40 in recent times and had good fps and accuracy, i think around 41,5grs, am not 100 percent off the top of my head.ive shot 6.5 calibres in recent years and the ballistic advantage is only marginal, you still have to get the wind right all the same.i still enjoy shooting at 1000yds as if it was my first go at it, looking down stickledown it doesn't seem 1000yds from the firing point, range 1000yds when across the fields and it OMG that is a long way, i have shot a 1800yds too and that is loooongrange.

I am sure you will enjoy it, have fun matey.atb swaro

[Morse]

The recipe that I use in my AI 308....

46Gr Vit N140, CCI BR primer, Lapua Brass (Large Primer) - keep meaning to try the palma brass...., 155Gr SMK Palma non tipped. Works very well for me out to 900m. The primer swap from standard federal to the CCI BR made a difference for me however it may have just been a slight diff and the rest psychological perhaps. No pressure signs and my brass has lasted well and reloaded 8/9 times now.

 

One of my mates uses the HBC bullet brand and gets good results, not tried myself but having seen the results looks promising but either way you will need to launch your choice of bullet fast enough to get the job done for you at 1000m. Work your load up nice and slow and good luck with the shooting plan over the next year.

 

I agree with the fact that the current load your using is going to disappoint and the idea of the GGG ammo to get you there and to see if you want to continue will save you some time on the loading bench and get you out shooting and give you an idea of how your rifle handles ammo built for the proposed job.

[22lrman]

Update..

Looked at bolt face today and indeed the firing pin hole is slightly chamfered. So that's probably the cratering, Had a quick hour or so on my hands today and tried 42.5gn N140 and it does not look any worse than 41gn. so feeling better about increasing load. Appreciate I need more velocity - just working up ...

JSC - Chrono notes showed 2700'ish was actually BLC2 and TZ brass, rather than the N140/Lapua (2680ish@42.5). My boob.

Gun pimp - Appreciate fireformed/ own loads is not an issue and I worked like that for a few months. BUT if I try GGG or any other factory load, I guess will have to worry about headspace so that's why I had it adjusted to just above bottom limit, so there should not be any issues with factory rounds. Factory rounds were frequently very tight closing bolt.

 

Anyway thanks again all, It's all very much appreciated. I'll see if i can get some more velocity first and then head out to Bisley in sep and just have fun I mean, how hard can it be ... ?

[JSC]

One thing to be aware of, particularly if you shoot at 1000+ on Stickledown is that conditions (and to a certain extent which target you are on) will sometimes give you confusing and spurious results, so if you're going to try different loads or compare against factory ammunition you need to be methodical and objective about it and sometimes shoot several groups over several sessions on different days before drawing any conclusions.

 

If you're marginal on velocity (which you will be with 155gn bullets and a 26" barrel) then changes in temperature, humidity and air pressure could mean you get a good result on one day and not so good the next, even though you may feel wind conditions were similar and the ammo was identical. There's a lot more to think about and consider once you go 'over the hill'...

 

Whatever you do, make plenty of notes!

[The Gun Pimp]

Gun pimp - Appreciate fireformed/ own loads is not an issue and I worked like that for a few months. BUT if I try GGG or any other factory load, I guess will have to worry about headspace so that's why I had it adjusted to just above bottom limit, so there should not be any issues with factory rounds. Factory rounds were frequently very tight closing bolt.

 

 

If there was a headspace issue with your Remington, the Proof House would have 'worried' about it.

 

Factory ammo is frequently a few thou. 'under' so that it will fit any chamber. I'd be interested to know which factory rounds caused a 'very tight closing bolt'.

 

How did you have your headspace 'adjusted to just above the bottom limit'? Alter the headspace - on a rifle which has passed proof and it should be re-proofed - did your gunsmith tell you this?

[c18rch]

I would think that the accuracy at 1000 would be shocking as you do not have enough muzzle velocity and you are likely to be bordering subsonic at 1000.

Stick to 900 yards or less to avoid being disheartened or switch to RS52 powder. Higher speed and less pressure than n140.

 

I have a .308 with a 18" barrel that quite happily and accurately shoots out to 1000yds. Also a rem 700 I might add.

 

My mate has a 14" barrelled .308 that he has shot accurately to 1000yds using 155gr GGG.

 

Both go subsonic well before. As long as your bullet remains stable through the transonic, it doesn't matter what range you want to shoot to. The limiting factor becomes how much spare elevation you have in the system. I will say that wind becomes a much bigger factor once you go subsonic.

 

Also, our club has a .308 varmint rem 700. 26" barrel. That shoots very accurately with the 155 GGG at 1000yds.

[Shuggy]

@JSC I have personally experienced the effect of temperature on 155grn GGG at 1000 yards at Bisley with a 26" Remington very much like the OPs. I shot much worse on a cold winters day in comparison to a warm summers day, even though the wind conditions were similar. The air will be less dense on a warm day and the propellant will also burn at a faster rate. Both effects will increase the residual velocity and push the transonic zone a bit nearer to the target.

 

I found that 190grn Sierras were much more forgiving than 155s on the cold day.

[1066]

Something to ponder is that the Stickledown 1,000 yd range has remained virtually unchanged for well over a hundred years, the target frames are still the same size they have always been.

 

The Enfield No4, shooting .303 issued military ammunition was the mainstay of target rifle shooting from 1945 until the mid 1960's.

 

The No 4 had a 25 inch barrel shooting a .303 175gn bullet at 2,440 fps - Many Queens prizes were won after a shoot off because of maximum scores.

 

(No rests or bi-pods or telescopic sights in those days.)