Buying a custom built rifle.

[Big Al]

I appreciate the different reasons why someone would want to buy a custon built rifle. The things they want can be specified and so to a greater extent they will get exactly what they have paid for, Im sure there are plenty of custom builders who have great reputations and so getting a high quality product is all but guaranteed in terms of spec and this will be dependent on how deep your pockets are.

 

My question is; can you specify the level of accuracy?

 

The point Im making is, if I bought a custom build and all I could get out of it was 1 MOA I would be gutted. Of course not every custom build customer can do their bit for 0.5MOA or less but will the gunsmith have it shot by himself or someone who is capable of achieving this or better before you take delivery?

 

Im not looking to have a dig at gunsmiths, I appreicate they can only work with the components they source but does a custom build always guarantee a high level of intrisnic accuracy in a rifle?

[gbal]

Al,the strict answer is no.I would be very surprised if any custom gunsmith would guarantee a specified .2 moa accuracy. Perhaps the best would not be content to supply a rifle capable only of .5moa-and might work to improve that,but they will have to speak for themselves on that.

Some 'factory' makers will give a guarantee of (say) .5 moa at 100y/m for 3 shots ,with 'match ammo',and a few include factory shot targets to that standard.

Nonetheless,the custom builder will produce more impressive accuracy rifles (?.3moa?) and a lot fewer (maybe none-as above) lesser rifles (?.6moa?). Any dispute could involve several shooter testing.

 

The biggest factor by far in a precision rifle is the barrel,and absolutely top make barrels can be specified (given the shooters wishes/needs/purse).However,they are not exact clones-occasionally there is a'hummer',a barrel that is exceptional by even the highest standards,and there are correspondingly few indeed that are not better than factory. No one can measure exactly the contribution of the barrel-somewhere around 75%,maybe,with the action a poor second,though contributing,then the stock/bedding. Trigger to shooters taste,to extract intrinsic accuracy,and all this put together with the gunsmiths skill.Even the best components could be assembled in a sloppy way.You are paying for,and the gunsmith is working to,preserve his reputation,by delivering a top rifle (within the limits of the components),ensuring customer saisfaction. .25 moa might be around an agreeable criterion for a full blown custom?

 

OK-whatever the fine detail might be,I hope that something like the above is generally a reasonable outline of reasonable expectations.Anything else would need a legal contractual agreement-but no-one can guarantee a .1moa barrel-and very very few could shoot it to that precision under real conditions...hence the 'guarantee' is not really on!

Of course,the very high probability is for a top custom spec rifle to be delivered,when contracted.

 

Hope that helps,and I've been as fair/clear as is likely/possible on this.

 

Gbal

[onehole]

Most decent factory rifles these days will have potential for 1/2 moa ish! performance given the best worked up handloads and perform pretty consistently at this level.Factory rifles are built with acceptable tolerances in there component parts and generally satisfy the average shooters needs most of the time.A truely handbuilt custom rifle will be assembled with minimum tolerances in all component parts all joined togerther with expertise and attention to detail.The result will be a rifle with potential for 1/4 moa performance with the best handloaded ammunition.Full blown heavy target/benchrest rigs would generally be expected to better 1/4 moa performance in favourable conditions .I would imagine most custom rifle builders would deem a 1 moa only performing rifle as a failure and would look to investigate and correct the problem.To extract and prove 1/4 moa performance demands a very high demand on shooter ability as well and the average shooter will never see the true potential of even the most superbly built custom rifle.Custom rifles are of course a joy to own and shoot pretty much knowing that it don,t come much better and the rest is down to its owner.

I have never been able to afford a true custom rifle but have had many rebarrel builds on my RPA,s that have always given me 1/4 moa and better performance.I have experienced and seen work done by Dave at Valkyrie ,,Dashernan{Neill Mckillop} and Russ Gall RG Rifles,,,all highly recommended,,,,regds O

[Ronin]

Id certainly be disappointed if any of my builds shot no better than half MOA from a bench in still air.

 

Though most people specifying a custom build will be making their own ammunition to pretty exacting standards - or loads specified for the supplied rifle, its largely down to the end user to carry out their own testing.

 

If I'm being brutally honest (and I'm not "bigging" myself up) I don't bother accuracy testing my builds, theres no point.

[Scotch_egg]

Id certainly be disappointed if any of my builds shot no better than half MOA from a bench in still air.

 

Though most people specifying a custom build will be making their own ammunition to pretty exacting standards - or loads specified for the supplied rifle, its largely down to the end user to carry out their own testing.

 

If I'm being brutally honest (and I'm not "bigging" myself up) I don't bother accuracy testing my builds, theres no point.

Yes Ronin's rifles shoot plain and simple. I had three 6mmbr rifles built that all shoot the same and the tolerances are that good I can use the same neck sized brass in all 3.

 

 

I would expect the same exacting tolerance from any of the UKV advertisers. They have exacting reputations to uphold in a cut throat industry. Just take a look at where our members get their rifles built and you won't go wrong.

[The Gun Pimp]

Personally, I can't see a lot of point having a custom built rifle UNLESS you have a use for it. In other words, you are competing against other shooters.

 

Example - F Class. Who manufactures an Open Class factory gun that could be competitive? Admittedly Savage make a decent stab at an FTR rifle - but no one else does.

 

Another example - Benchrest. No manufacturer makes a rifle that would get anywhere near a custom 6PPC rifle. You need a custom built rifle to be competitive.

 

But, if you don't compete and just want to plink and shoot the odd fox, there are plenty of factory guns that will do the job and turn in half MOA accuracy on a good day.

 

So, to answer Big Al's question "Can you specify a level of accuracy?" What you would ask for is a rifle that would be competitive in the discipline you choose compete in. For example - accurate as it is, the 'one hole' custom 6PPC rifle wouldn't be competitive in F Class.

[Brillo]

Vince has hit the nail on the head. Unless you compete you don't know what level of accuracy you need or aspire to. When I entered my first bench rest comp I was amazed at the group sizes my more experienced new friends were achieving. Boy, was I outclassed or what?

I've now got into F Class and F Open and when I saw what shooters like 6mmBR and elwood were achieving I was initially dismayed and then spurred on to improve.

I've now got guns that are, quite frankly, better than I am for now. But I know that the smiths who built my new toys would not have built them if they were not confident that, in the right hands, would achieve a high level of accuracy.

So, can they guarantee it - no. But they won't build you one and let you get your hands on it unless they believe it will deliver to promise. Nuff said?

[Shuggy]

I'd agree with Vincent except there are many match quality varminting rigs that seldom go near a range.

[Big Al]

Great replies guy, thanks very much.

 

I have zero experience of a custom build and so in my niaevity hadnt really considered that by using the best components it seems that providing the gunsmith works to close tollerances accuracy seems to come as standard.

[jcampbellsmith]

Personally, I can't see a lot of point having a custom built rifle UNLESS you have a use for it. In other words, you are competing against other shooters. ......

I don't agree, I suggest you try shooting some small roe deer on a clear fell in the winter time. Regards JCS

[mikeroz]

QUOTE FROM GBAL. "No one can measure exactly the contribution of the barrel-somewhere around 75%,maybe,with the action a poor second,though contributing,then the stock/bedding".

 

I just wanted to copy & paste what gbal said above. Very few factory rifles have match grade barrels. I might be wrong here but I'd say they are usually / nearly always built to a price in-house.

 

Take a new factory rifle, play around with load development & you'd be unlucky not to achieve somewhere between 0.75 inch 5 shot groups in still conditions at 100m. If luck you could get 0.5 inch.

 

Fit a good match barrel bed the action and ensure you choose a smith who knows what he's doing and in my opinion 0.5 inch will be your starting point, anything better is down to you, your reloading and shooting skills.

 

Remember this though, a rifle and it's resultant accuracy is only as good as the sum of the parts, mess one thing up and it might be no better than any old gun.

[gbal]

There seems to be a reasonable consensus,more or less centred around my first post. A factory rifle might reasonably give .5moa (maybe bit better from the better ones),and could be well rebarrelled to below .5.

A Custom rifle can be expected to be a .25 moa rifle,if made by a top gunsmith and quality components.

And yes,there are a few 'factory' rifles that are a bit better,and occasionally do so in eg BR competition,but seldom push the routine custom BR rifles. (BR competition only because it is a fair public 25 shot comparison .)

I do have some sympathy with some of the other points too-generally,foxing does not need a .25 rifle,and a more manoeuvrable good factory rifle is probably a better tool.

Plenty of .25 custom rifles will be used for varminting,and at say 400y,the precision helps.What a deer shooter prefers is his business,and condition dependent-I would not carry a 12lb rifle all day on big hills for a 200y shot (note too much field shooting is essentially one shot,group per se are not that relevant),but I would want confidence and competent gear for any shot,and first shot accuracy as good as it gets.

 

There are quite a lot of rifles that are not used for hunting and competitions. Some of us just like having very precise rifles ( as well) and enjoy the challenge f shooting against ourselves,essentially-though of course having a criterion from competition performances is useful/essential.If I shoot a .25 group at a club range,or prostrate in the heather-even less likely!- it's good to know this isn't too far from a decent Bench Rest group.Only rarely will that precision actually be needed,but it gives satisfaction.Pro rata on all distances etc.I'm sure that I am not the only shooter with this condition-competition shooters and gear set the standard/push the performance frontier,but you can aspire to it more informally.

If you are honest with yourself,of course,this means that the solitary .2 group you shot once really evidences not your competence,but the lack of it ,if you cannot routinely reproduce it!

 

So,yes you can buy precision,and that is your prerogative.You may/not need it;you may /not prioritise it.

You probably will like it,if you get it.Do not begrudge another shooter his pleasure with something a small fraction of the cost,and quite a big fraction of the performance.

Good shooting ,all

Gbal

[The Gun Pimp]

I don't agree, I suggest you try shooting some small roe deer on a clear fell in the winter time. Regards JCS

Well, I've never done that so I'm not really qualified to comment. But, if I had to do it, my main concern would be for a humane kill, given the possible error in wind-drift and distance estimation - which would concern me more than my rifle's quarter or half MOA capability.

[ejg223]

I don't agree, I suggest you try shooting some small roe deer on a clear fell in the winter time. Regards JCS

agree with that, actually think custom target rifle development leads to finding ways of making a proper hunting rifle. Target shooting is playing...not as important as hunting...that is where a rifle must perform...always.

I was most impressed by a test in a recent German magazine where a varmint type custom rifle was tested with 14 different loads including 4 factory loads. Largest 10 shot group of the 14 loads was under an inch. Recon that would make a good hunting rifle.

edi

[gbal]

Vince,absolutely correct.Fortunately,it is not one or the other-there are 'off the peg/out of the box" hunting rifles in appropriate calibres that will deliver terminal clout,excellent ballistics,and well sub 1moa accuracy.And be affordable.

 

JCS- though this depends a bit on distance,at any ethical one-does not my answer to Vince still stand?

 

edi:just as above really.I am certainly not against cartridge and rifle development,though for UK hunting at least,there hasn't really been any quantum leap for several decades-perhaps rather more in scopes?

Just for the fun of it,on a Bank Holiday,with no shooting,what are the criteria for 'most important" kind of shooting? I hope you were a bit tongue in cheek,but each to his/her own-or several! Target shooting is fairly clearly non essential,though pleasant for some;but the same is true for hunting-only very minor-if that-changes would occur affecting life in UK;actually,is not the best case for rifle use,the military (though even that is not an absolute,or at best a necessary negative-probably the 'military' use of rifles causes more human life impact than any other use. The hunter instinct is just boloney nowadays,and if Tesco etc vanished,we'd descend into a near gameless world pretty quickly,so rifle hunting isn't going to be 'most important' for long then.More like the biggest threat. Discuss.

 

OK: choice of rifle is subjective,and relatively unhampered for most. I am unimpressed by the results of this German test-there is quite a choice of 'off the shelf' hunting rifles that will perform at least as well,given that .2moa is not critical for a hunting rifle (even if deliverable by target ones). Weight etc are also consideration for 'real hunting' (define/discuss).Let's suggest 8lb,preferably a bit less,for rifle alone-but it's subjective,and you can haul around what you wish.

How about this: in UK,what cannot be hunted very well indeed with a battery of two,maybe three of the shelf rifles-I'll choose Sako 75s-and I'll have a 243 and 308.If I'm allowed a third then a 224 cf(though not needed,as 58g 243 will be as effective,indeed more so).If we go international,then a heavier third - 375H7H maybe.Othher make (s) could be substituted.

 

Here is my neck out premise-with the above pair of Sakos,how,if at all,would actual UK (or worldwide,with+1 or 2 more-this was not strictly about minimums) be compromised? The rifles will be at least 1/2 moa,and easily ammo'ed for appropriate species. What 'development's' from target rifle or anywhere do I need? (actually I was tempted to just go for a 6.5x54 M/S carbine,but let's not get too minimalist).

Now,I do not put this theory into practice-well,I do but add a few more,including 'target'numbers,as I find 20lb plus a bit restrictive as a stalker,even in shehane-a delight in itself,of course along with the .......(fill in according to your pleasures).But none of these would displace the 243/308 really (or whatever other two you wish...of course you could say these were target derived..but you'd be wrong-it was military-cf my opening provocations.)I'd miss myPPCs,eg,but they miss too-might just replace the 224cf though,on merit and a concession to target developments,but it ain't necessary.

 

OK,you get the drift,or more flattering,the general principle.

 

What cannot be hunted very well indeed with these two rifles,243 and 308 Sako 75s (+1 for worldwide)

 

Open season on these radical ideas!

 

Gbal

 

ps time for an (n) espresso -major improvements in coffee house conversation stimulants.

[ejg223]

Gbal, you are probably right.

a 2-3moa rifle that probably widens up a bit when rested on the wrong parts of the stock would do fine for hunting. Hit an animal somewhere and track it with a good dog...if not found it doesn't really matter either as in most cases nobody saw it happen...unlike a target that can be seen by the rest of the competition...how embarrassing ...

I know it sounds a bit ott but fear it is the truth in too many cases. Then hunters get confirmation on forums telling them any rifle will do for hunting however one should invest in a precision rifle if one wants to target shoot as the precision of the hunting rifle would not get you anywhere on paper....

I know we are only talking about animals but I think they deserve a bit more respect and a bit more of similar attention that one would give a target setup, including plenty practice with good reliable gear.

By the way I had a T3 that would barely manage an inch under best conditions with only one brand of ammo, so much for the Sako barrel.

edi

[gbal]

edi,I note your first sentence,and I am naturally minded to agree.It's the ''Buts.." that follow I reply too...

Read my opening sentences' there are out of the box rifles giving well sub 1moa accuracy'-and agreement with Vince's ethical concerns.

I share your points about poor game shooting,but to imply that I am advocating it is errr ridiculous,both in the spirit and letter of what I wrote.Not however the main issue.

I'm sorry that on the basis of one Tikka,you dismiss Sako-I'd have though 1moa would just about qualify for a hunting rifle,anyhow.

But my choice of Sako was personal-all mine have been fine,but substitute-as I wrote-any couple of factory rifles in suitable cartridges,which are (preferably sub moa,)and what can't be hunted in UK?

That is very different from 'any poor shot can use a 3moa rifle successfully and ethically',which is nonsense. Although sub moa is desireable in itself,it does not make someone a good shot,and a poor shot is not usually because the rifle is a 3moa one (I doubt that there are many such,anyhow-but they are clearly excluded by my specs anyhow). An extra moa accuracy will not preclude a poor shot,nor make a mess any better because of 1/2 inch if the shot is poorly placed.

Surely everyone knows that? I grant you tthere are some poor shots fired-geneerally,in private so we have no idea by what.

 

Sorry to be rather direct,but my point was that it is entirely possible to be well equipped for any hunting with a couple of factory rifles,chosen selectively (the Sako 75s would not be new,so would be 'tried before buyed"- one reason for the choice.

The advice that a target spec rifle is highly recommended for serious target shooting is sound,as most hunting rifles will not be competitive in such disciplines at distance.It does not at all follow that hunting rifles are not fit for purpose (hunting) or that the target rifles are fit for hunting either,for that matter.(as in my example-the 20+lb shehane is NOT a hunting tool,though it's pretty cool on 1000 yard clays.)

Let's keep apples to apples,edi-I absolutely agree on ethical hunting-and have posted umpteen times on the topic-a 1/4 moa rifle is not pro rata at 400y,and most are non starters ethically at extended distance,despite occasional hits,because the hit rate is nowhere near 95% (we won't get 100% for all sorts of reasons....95% is a somewhat reluctant acceptance by my ethics.)

Fair enough? (I don't say a custom (target) rifle should not be used,more that it is not necessary on almost any criterion-so long as the rifle used does meet some criteria (moa?etc),and that is achievable by some factory rifles.( come to think of it,I've never had one that wasn't,though I might have been lucky to miss your T3.While I'm feeling my libran balance,we've also recently had an example of a poor 'custom' rifle-though maybe a poor barrel or whatever-and I've argued quite strongly that this is an aberration,and 1/4 moa can be expected..... Doesn't guarantee ethical use,of course...or even competent use.

atb,

g

I'll try a latte,now,with milk and choc topping.

ps edi-your PM isn't receiving,my apologies if I have misinterpreted the 'buts' as directed at me.

[gbal]

...I might have caffein confusion now:

I was just pondering all this factory/custom hunting thing-

If we grant the custom 1/4 moa precision and the factory 1/2 precision ;then consider shooting error (ie pulling shot,twitch-all the 'flier' things),looking back over such on test targets it seems to be around 1/4 moa being admitted to,sooooo......(unless the custom/target is so unfeasibly heavy as a stalker,that it is unmoveable,does that mean......

the custom has a (1/4 plus 1/4) error and the factory sporter (1/2 +1/4) error?

 

ie 1/2 inch for custom and 3/4 for factory,which reduces the advantage correspondingly?

 

Shooter factors do seem rather the weakest link in either set up. If 1/2 moa is a make or break at POI,it's highly probably that it is rather a poor shot anyhow.

 

Gbal

[bradders]

I'm pretty sure here that more wild animals/game has been killed with factory rifles than specialised custom ones and think some of you have long lost sight of reality...

[ejg223]

What I see is 50% first time round fail rate at HCAP/DSC shooting tests from partially seasoned hunters, constant talks/meetings/training and sessions of dog tracking training. Our Deer organisation even shipped in professional deer tracking people from Germany for training sessions. Deer wounding seems to be a serious issue although seldomly admitted.

Recon the biggest problem is the shooter who lacks of training however there is a portion of blame on the equipment. If one looks at factory rifles ...hell they are not even properly built! ...or which ones are properly pillar bedded? It is absolutely no good to fire 5 rounds from a bench in consistent position and then think the half built rifle will hold this quality of grouping and POI over the next half year. A close look at factory rifles that are offered at the moment shows they are in most cases not capable of holding the same POI under different shooting positions, just a design that caters more for looks than for precision. This is nothing new and companies like Valkyrie, Brock & Norris, Ronin etc. live off fixing the downfalls of factory rifles. Nothing new.

It is also much more difficult to manufacture/build an accurate and reliably accurate lightweight hunting rifle that holds its zero under field conditions changing weather, cold bore shots, damp barrel, possibly weeks after last zero check than a lump of a target rifle that gets zeroed every five minutes....

Even if some do not see it that way I still think shooting live animal is much more serious than shooting paper and would spend more money on a hunting rifle than on a target rifle.

edi

[baldie]

My most hated phrase I get in the shop is "It's only for foxing"

 

Anyone shooting at a living creature owes it a quick death. If that means a gun needs work, then it should have it.

 

Otherwise, go kill some cardboard.

[tackb]

My most hated phrase I get in the shop is "It's only for foxing"

 

Anyone shooting at a living creature owes it a quick death. If that means a gun needs work, then it should have it.

 

Otherwise, go kill some cardboard.

 

I agree baldie but mostly it's the operator that needs work not the rifle but sadly mostly that is the last thing to get any work !

[Timney]

My tuppence is that you owe it to whatever you shoot to use the best combination to do the job ethically. Whether that means custom or off-the-shelf that's up to you - a shooter that can put three shots into a 5p piece with a factory rifle wouldn't see the benefit of going custom - unless he wants to. It's human nature to want something a bit different. If money allowed I would always go custom, but I live in the real world, not willy-wagging with the mates down the pub or at the range. I am waiting for my first custom rifle to be built by Dasherman. I have every "expectation" that it will shoot better than my factory .308 rifle, but that still doesn't mean that I will perform any better as a shooter. Whether I see any improvements in my shooting through the use of a custom rifle remains to be seen. I owe it to myself to practice a hell of a lot more than I can currently manage, then at least I know that I am giving my rifle the best chance it has to being accurate. At least I am safe in the knowledge that my rifle will have been put together with exacting tolerances, so the only person to blame for PPP is myself.

[gunner]

Well said Timney , you wont be dissapointed if niels doing it ! My new one from him is showing to be an accurate shooter

[srvet]

What I see is 50% first time round fail rate at HCAP/DSC shooting tests from partially seasoned hunters, constant talks/meetings/training and sessions of dog tracking training. Our Deer organisation even shipped in professional deer tracking people from Germany for training sessions. Deer wounding seems to be a serious issue although seldomly admitted.

Recon the biggest problem is the shooter who lacks of training however there is a portion of blame on the equipment. If one looks at factory rifles ...hell they are not even properly built! ...or which ones are properly pillar bedded? It is absolutely no good to fire 5 rounds from a bench in consistent position and then think the half built rifle will hold this quality of grouping and POI over the next half year. A close look at factory rifles that are offered at the moment shows they are in most cases not capable of holding the same POI under different shooting positions, just a design that caters more for looks than for precision. This is nothing new and companies like Valkyrie, Brock & Norris, Ronin etc. live off fixing the downfalls of factory rifles. Nothing new.

It is also much more difficult to manufacture/build an accurate and reliably accurate lightweight hunting rifle that holds its zero under field conditions changing weather, cold bore shots, damp barrel, possibly weeks after last zero check than a lump of a target rifle that gets zeroed every five minutes....

Even if some do not see it that way I still think shooting live animal is much more serious than shooting paper and would spend more money on a hunting rifle than on a target rifle.

edi

+1 from me.....

 

If I pull a shot on a target I may get a lower place or at worst a bit of ribbing from my buddies. If I shoot and wound a deer I have long sleepless nights to endure. The benefit of my semi customs can be summarised in two words, repeatability and confidence. These are both incredibly valuable when hunting live quarry