Catch-22

Maybe...but maybe not! Its great Pops has done some more testing of his own, but one person isn’t statistically significant of a method working or not. The article I linked to shows another respected shooter did in fact get demonstrably significant improvement by rotating. So there’s one for it...one against. Would be interesting to collate data across a lot of people to see whether there’s statistical significance across the spread. Pops, I also wonder whether you’re not getting much improvement due to the honed dies you use. Not sure if these are ‘standard’ dies you can buy or you’ve had them modified?? But perhaps the rotational method irons out any run out or lack of concentricity you might get with standard mass produced dies? So maybe rotation isn’t that useful if using custom or ‘specialised’ dies? Dunno.

I’m not affiliated with OW in any way other than I’ve been a satisfied customer of theirs in the past - very nice and helpful people. They’ve got some stonking deals on and have a further 10% off at the moment. Just picked up a new Schmidt 5-25. 🥳

Does anyone else have insightful comments to add to this thread? 🙄 Anyone with actual experience of Tondu as a club? Thanks

There are so many factors involved in this, it’s an almost impossible question to answer. Barrel material, method of manufacture (eg cut, button, hammer forging), calibre, powder used, charge weight, pressure generated, heat generated, long strings of fire (hot barrel), slow strings of fire (cool barrel), cleaning solvents, method of cleaning are some of the factors that will determine barrel life. In terms of accuracy from barrel life, that’s rather subjective too. A comp shooter may say only 2000-3000 rounds of x-calibre because it’s no longer consistently shooting 0.25MOA. Whereas a hunter with same barrel and calibre might say 5000+ rounds because they’re still shooting sub MOA. Good blog, the first in a new series, on the matter; https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/03/24/how-fast-does-a-barrel-wear/

I still think there’s far too much over emphasis on chasing extremely low SD/ES numbers. There’s a huge fixation on getting to the 2-3fps numbers when it’s simply not necessary...even at extreme distances. Of course, It is entirely necessary to make good consistent ammunition (good hand-loading practice) and find a stable group (validated over successive strings) that demonstrates ‘good’ SD/ES. But I would ask, what is ‘good’ SD/ES to everyone? What number would you deem to be ‘good’ or ‘good enough’? What magic number are you chasing? An excellent article using Litz’s work, looks at this and calculates that chasing a reduction in SD from 10fps to 3fps yields only a 1% hit improvement rate at 1000yrds on a 20” plate. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/18/how-much-does-sd-matter/ Ive personally always been very happy under 10fps but really even that, I’m not overly concerned. If it’s 1% or even 5%, the reason why I’ll miss is overwhelmingly going to be environmental factors (misreading the wind) or poor technique (inconsistent trigger squeeze or poor cheekweld etc)....so is it really worth all the procrastination and effort of chasing super low SD/ES?

I believe the switch from 30-06 to 308 was driven more by the rules of competition. However, it is worth noting that the standard .30-06 leade angle is 3 degrees, whereas the .308w is 1.5 degrees. The .308w shallower leade is better suited to competition bullets and permits the bullet to ‘gently’ slide into the throat and engage the lands less harshly. The .30-06 3 degree leade is an older design, more akin to WWI and WWII military design. German Salazar (US comp shooter) created a tweaked .30-06 reamer that featured a a 1.5 degree leade. He believed this change leads to greater accuracy. He’s shot very well in 1000yd comps. I’ve recently had a .30-06 barrel spun up using the same reamer design and it does appear to be a good one.

Well it’s clearly a double based powder. Being from a major ammunition manufacturer. It might not be a powder that’s commercially available to us reloaders. It could be a powder that’s also used by military customers, so impossible to say.

When things start to settle down with COVID19 (probably in 2yrs time!) I would like to find a dedicated place for shooting gallery/underleaver near by. All my other shooting is medium to long range (600m-1400m) so there’s no opportunity to have some fun with my .44mag underleaver. Tondu seems to be setup for gallery shooting. And it’s close by. Does anyone shoot there? If so, what are your thoughts? Thanks!

Personally, I’ve not tried validating this myself as I don’t own a concentricity gauge. But have read a few resources that recommended it and as it’s quick, simple and free (no extra equipment needed) I’ve just always done it and have always been able to produce very accurate and repeatability accurate ammunition. I too use a RCBS Rockchucker Supreme, albeit with a mix of Whidden, Redding and Lee (.44mag) dies. Here’s something I’ve read in the past. There was also a good piece by the USAMU on it but can’t locate it as yet. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/07/try-rotating-cases-during-bullet-seating-to-reduce-run-out/

Likely no. But something worth doing is rotating your bullets as you progressively seat. So seat half the bullet, back out and revolve case 180 degrees, then fully seat. Has been proven to improve concentricity.

Thanks Andrew. You’re right, I should (and do) reduce loads a smidge with new lots. I just wasn’t sure how different the new lot will be compared to the old. I think SO70 is an excellent powder in my 30-06 with 180gn D46 and 190gn SMK. I too use the SW data and I’ve found it to be very helpful. I’ve yet to chrono my chosen OCW load but it’s likely to be around 2850fps out of my 30” barrel. Very accurate! Thanks again!

I’ve used SO70 before and the kernels had a light-ish green tinge. Just received a few new Kg’s of SO70 and it appears the colour has changed a bit. Half the kernels were the same light-ish tinge of green, the other half being much darker in colour. Could this be the new additives used to make it REACH compliant? Regardless, does anyone know if it affects the burn rate/energy at all? Will it change existing load data?

OCW is best done at 100m because it’s easier to spot the group sizes with different charge weights. Remember, OCW is all about finding the best group within the middle of a suitable series of groups, where the series of groups all show little dispersion...particularly low vertical. I’m not overly concerned either by chasing low ES/SD. It’s nice when they are in single digits but it’s not essential. Stable group size is! Muzzle velocity really comes later as it’s important for your ballistic calculator. So I don’t see measuring MV really that important in the initial phases of OCW testing. And actually, I prefer NOT to use the Magnetospeed during initial OCW as strapping it to the barrel will affect harmonics and this group size. I therefore run my OCW to find the best group, then run a second test on the same group (same bullet and powder charge) but with different seating depths to fine tune (if needed). Lastly I’ll stick a Magneto on the end to record MV which I store in my Kestrel. Done! With regards to measuring MV using electronic targets, I couldn’t say. It’s likely all down to the system being used and how accurate it is. I would hazard a guess and suggest it’s not going to be quite as accurate as a LabRadar or Magnetospeed, but it might give you a ball park from which to work your Kestrel.

Back when I had a Tikka M595, I replaced the baker lite shroud with a metal one from Lumley Arms. It was very precisely machined. The common practice is to cut a few coils off the supplied spring, just so there’s enough tension on the back of the bolt but not too much so that it causes issues. https://www.lumleyarms.com/blank

Thanks very much, sounds right up my street. I’ll reach out at some point. Cheers!

Nowt...unfortunately I’m not section 5 nor shoot in N. Ireland or abroad. Just interested to know experiences of others with the two pistols. I’ll have to arrange a visit to your facility in the future, grew up with rifles and shotguns but never had the chance to have pistols ☹️

Have you tried the CZ 75 Tactical Sport Orange? How does that compare to the Shadow 2?

Yeah it was bad! Of the 20 odd who said they’d come, only about 10 turned up. After HME, First detail of 5 shooters had enough after about an hour. I was lying in an inch deep puddle the entire time. ☹️ The second detail just didn’t want to shoot, they basically drove home whilst the first detail just arrived at the butts. The weather was THAT bad!

Offas Dyke (ODRC) shoot around that area. Ranges include; - Rogiet Moor (600m) // just behind the former toll booths on the welsh side of the Severn Bridge - Sennybridge ranges (300m to 1600m) // Off the A40, just beyond Sennybridge and Trecastle // F and J3a ranges - the long range - currently under MOD review but J3 and G are available) - Warminster IR2 (900m) // located within Warminster Camp - Kingsbury A range (300m and 600m) // just North East of Birmingham - you also have access to FCSA ranges, which include Javelin range down on Salisbury Plain - which I think is 2000m+ Rogiet is a lovely range, as is Warminster (though the weather there recently made it miserable). The long range Sennybridge shoots are awesome but not in use due to FF ban. But hopefully that’s going to be lifted. Never shot on Javelin but hoping to go soon.

Over the years I’ve had a Harris BRMS, Atlas and now the Fortmeier/Phoenix bipod. The latter is by far the most stable and robust. Totally rock solid with zero flex in the legs. Totally unlike the Atlas which feels like a floppy chip at times. I have the top mounting version and wouldn’t now be without it on my big boomer. Works great on both a bench and off grass.

Well with that in mind, I’d try somewhere between the suggested loads for 180gn and 200gn. Personally, if using LP brass (not the SR Palmer brass) I’d start at 40.0gn RS50 and work up 0.3gn increments from there. You’ll possibly find max around 44.0gn-45.0gn but don’t take that as gospel because each rifle/load combo will be different. In my experience, the RS data seem fairly conservative (most data providers do, it’s a lawyer thing). Just be sensible, look for pressure signs (cratering then flattening primers, shiny spot on base of case from ejector, stiff bolt lift). If you experience any of these, it’s likely you’ve reached your max for your rifle. Don’t go any further, back off the charge to the best group/node below your max. Good luck!

What bullet weight are you intending to use? The RS website lists loads for RS50 in .308w ranging from 130gn all the way up to 240gn. Thats a huge spread and choice. If your chosen bullet weight is somewhere in that range, then find the load data for the nearest bullet weight matching yours and work up slowly. Eg, if you’re planning to use a 175gn bullet, then I’d use the load data for 180gn bullets, start 20% below max and work up. Bear in mind when using the same powder, you will normally load MORE powder for lighter bullets, LESS powder for heavier bullets.

Why the weather in Warminster yesterday couldn’t have been like today? 😭 I was completely soaked to the bone...but the big .338NM managed to give me a smile.😀

I think the law will mostly be applied once HMRC checks component parts on arrival to the UK. This is why I’ve just had everything engraved to negate any possible arguments and seizure by customs.

I’m just in the process of having a new rifle with a clutch of chambered barrels sent over from the US. Ive been advised that all major component parts (action, barrels, bolts) have the following details engraved on them; - serial number - country of manufacture - name of manufacturer - model (where relevant) it’s a huge PITA!