2, then 9 more?!

[Roy W]

No idea, each force is different and buy guns and ammo at their own whim and change them frequently depending which way the wind blows.

I expect they shot him twice to start with, assumed he was dead, retired to a safe'ish distance to await EOD, whilst high fiving and organising tea and medals. I mean, who wouldn't have thought he was dead. 

They probably missed all the vital organs, he came round, they thought 'buggar' , as you would when you think a PBIED is about to be clacked off. Got off as many rounds as possible to neutralise the threat, and some of which missed, as you would expect.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and the 9 o'clock jury (as we used to call them) can disect it slow time, with lots of 'what ifs' and 'should have's'. Bottom line is, they had a fraction of a second to sort it out, and fortunately nobody else got hit.

I expect the hit rate in close quarter fighting is much lower than that day, so the fact a few rounds went astray is more than forgivable.

I have to say that Narwhale Tusk man and Fire Extinguisher man were the real heroes that day! Together with the Polish bloke with the lance in Fishmonger's. If it hadn't been for them, a lot more people would have been injured or killed.

[One on top of two]

Sorry but most of the serious lads and lasses I have seen shooting practical/CQB whatever it’s called with sec1 shotguns , 22LBP ect would put 99% of Armed police too absolute shame , and the Airsoft gravy seals come to think of it . I think the police have a massive amount to learn for when there faced with and individual or god help us a group that really don’t give a jam doughnut . 

[brown dog]

31 minutes ago, Roy W said:

 

I have to say that Narwhale Tusk man and Fire Extinguisher man were the real heroes that day! Together with the Polish bloke with the lance in Fishmonger's. If it hadn't been for them, a lot more people would have been injured or killed.

100% agree

[brown dog]

19 minutes ago, One on top of two said:

Sorry but most of the serious lads and lasses I have seen shooting practical/CQB whatever it’s called with sec1 shotguns , 22LBP ect would put 99% of Armed police too absolute shame , and the Airsoft gravy seals come to think of it . I think the police have a massive amount to learn for when there faced with and individual or god help us a group that really don’t give a jam doughnut . 

Yup, always used to be some darts-player-physique type saying that about military shooting too  - best thing is to offer them to suit-up in 30 or 40 pounds of kit, do a quick bleep test or run 200m and then show that skill whilst someone tries to kill them, maybe?

[One on top of two]

5 minutes ago, brown dog said:

Yup, always used to be some darts-player-physique type saying that about military shooting too  - best thing is to offer them to suit-up in 30 or 40 pounds of kit, do a quick bleep test or run 200m and then show that skill whilst someone tries to kill them, maybe?

Tart …

[Roy W]

48 minutes ago, One on top of two said:

Sorry but most of the serious lads and lasses I have seen shooting practical/CQB whatever it’s called with sec1 shotguns , 22LBP ect would put 99% of Armed police too absolute shame , and the Airsoft gravy seals come to think of it . I think the police have a massive amount to learn for when there faced with and individual or god help us a group that really don’t give a jam doughnut . 

Quite possibly, but steel targets don't shoot back, nor do they explode. Rather changes the dynamics somewhat

[One on top of two]

18 minutes ago, Roy W said:

Quite possibly, but steel targets don't shoot back, nor do they explode. Rather changes the dynamics somewhat

Neither did the asshole they shot 

[AHPP]

24 minutes ago, brown dog said:

Yup, always used to be some darts-player-physique type saying that about military shooting too  - best thing is to offer them to suit-up in 30 or 40 pounds of kit, do a quick bleep test or run 200m and then show that skill whilst someone tries to kill them, maybe?

I was going to say similar. Then I was going to say that actually the civilians would still wipe the floor with them with kit and running etc but of course the prospect of your target exploding etc would level the playing field. Then I came to my senses and remembered that absolutely anything done by the public sector can be done ten times better by absolutely anyone else. 

Coincidentally, I just looked at facebook and there’s a video of a fat copper, on duty, singing karaoke in a gay bar. People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to go mincing on their behalf. 

[ds1]

Platforms: U.K. no one universal system but most popular :

shorts: Glock g17,  (g19 for vip) fly in the ointment is that it is the only pistol specified with a minimum trigger weight ( I think 12 lbs- it’s the US ‘lawyer proof’ weight anyway). You have now ham strung it. Other similar striker fired options S&W m&p 2.0. Cz p10F etc no such restrictions.

Longs: police are HK fanboys- 9mm mp5 ( absolutely dated but the roller locking makes it easy and accurate to shoot)  223 - HK G36c, HK 416. PDW 6mm HK MP7. MP7 is quite CT specialised- negligible recoil, 6mm projo’s that defeats level 3 body armour. My thoughts on that  platform- it’s not something that I would use in semi ( crap trigger reset) but full auto is where it shines - 40round mag, lack of recoil in a small form factor makes 10, 15 round bust so easy. Loved shooting it.

Sights: Eotech seems to be the benchmark on carbines. Red dots on pistols are becoming more popular for civilian ccw and US military. I don’t think the U.K. is ready to get over the sticker shock that a red dot and mount is going to cost about the same as a handgun. Shield is U.K. based but Trijicon RMR / SRO is still the benchmark on handguns.

Ammunition: it’s going to be a choice of what’s approved end up with things like 165 accubonds in 308w, 9mm MagTech for training etc.

The best performing 9mm at the moment is either Speer gold-dot 2 (gd2) or Hornady Critical Defence...... so say a small testing lab called the FBI. They are overall evaluations rather than single category evaluation.

(Czech - well S&B is a national company supplying a fully armed  police force - no one said it was the best. Some anomalies like 308w being Sako 308 168g match as they bought Sako Trg 22s so that was specified in the warranty).

Training U.K. approx 5% of the police force are armed, FO’s ( firearms officers) require higher physical fitness test, psychological test, first aid qualification ( ARV’s are equipped with defibrillators etc), tactical training (assessment). Pistol and carbine qualification courses. Refresher training re-qualification courses. Initial courses last around 12 weeks plus first aid course. Specialist courses -  rifle, VIP on top of that and higher level SFO ( special firearms officer) gets into stuff like method of entry.

UK system- well thought out integration of key tactical elements like active shooter and single system of search programs. Some things I noticed- Czech age of response units around 20-30 most are actively interested  in shooting outside the job. U.K. age 40+ very limited numbers interested  in shooting outside the job..... from those that I have spoken to.

Sport vs Police : chalk and cheese really- there is arrogance in both camps but the best of the police units are happy to steal from anyone that they can gain knowledge from - eg. going to top level IPSC shooters to learn fast doubles and quick transitions saves you a lot of time in the learning curve. Other aspects are not appropriate. Some differences are not easy to appreciate- eg 1 part from an old police pistol qualification- 5m, draw from holster and fire one shot, time 3 seconds: that’s from a level 3 holster ( 3 levels of retention) full kit, target I’d and after shooting  ‘scan and breathe’. It’s its own system. A sports shooter will look at the times and say that they can do a 1 second draw and 0.15~0.2 second splits so can fire potentially 10 shots to the 1 by the police. However they don’t have the same kit, protocols or consequences. 

For those who decry the police, how many would CCW given the opportunity- do a first aid course, take appropriate training and want the responsibility that you will be held responsible for your actions? That’s basically what the police do....... I do instruct ccw and people do it, me included so it’s not a slight but rather an informed choice and responsibility. (300k Czechs have fac’s from a 11M population, the majority with have the right to ccw, the majority will not normally ccw). 

Roy W. I heard the U.K. police might open the firearms training (not tactics) up to civilian contractors..... any truth in that?
 

 

[Roy W]

At the moment, Police Firearms Instructors have to do the College of Policing course and be licensed by them. That doesn't prevent ex cops returning as Police Staff and being instructors, but outside contractors aren't licensed, so can't train them and qualify them, for now.

 

 

[Popsbengo]

Isn't the point that when the police need to put someone down they do it successfully?  How many cases of armed intervention in the UK have resulted in an officer or third party being shot after the perp has been shot by the police?  Is there an actual problem that needs fixing?

[Roy W]

2 hours ago, Popsbengo said:

Isn't the point that when the police need to put someone down they do it successfully?  How many cases of armed intervention in the UK have resulted in an officer or third party being shot after the perp has been shot by the police?  Is there an actual problem that needs fixing?

exactly

 

[brown dog]

 Hmmm. I suspect the low overshoot impression is more about how rarely the police open up and how few shots they tend to fire when they do…. and luck, vis: bus  

almost 50% of shots ‘lost’ at a short range at a static target, in the centre of London, even accounting for stress, strikes me as ‘a lot’.

[nCognitos]

I have to say, some of this makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.  I'm no police fanboy, one of my best friends will tell stories about CID corruption that would make your toes curl, but in our civilian society with a civilian police force, we employ people and tell them their  job is to run towards danger when everyone else is running away.  Armed police are answerable in a unique and detailed way, they know any decision, even made in good faith, may leave them hung out to dry, at the mercy of the press and public, yet they still choose to do the job.

From the coroners court it seems like they shot him twice and then when he didn't keep still and sat up, they received radio authorisation for a critical shot from a firearms supervisor.  I'm sure they were in fear for their own lives as well as those of people around them and 2 shots or 20, they did the job and kept shooting until he stopped moving.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that in the same situation, armed with whatever you wanted to give me, I would have frozen and crapped my pants.

When I look at the way they dealt with the murderers of Fusilier Lee Rigby, the London Bridge attack where four unarmed police officers were wounded trying to protect the public and this attack, I am not inclined to offer any contrary opinion on their actions.  I am personally grateful they are out there, apparently within 5 minutes arrival time in any major urban area.  As for their weapons, they will learn and they will adapt but remember they have the constraints of largely operating in an urban environment, in close proximity to civilians.

Since 2010, the police have shot and killed 27 people in the UK, that's a rate of 4 per 10 million people over 11 years, putting us towards the bottom of the league table, just above Japan.

[brown dog]

Happy with that.

Not sure anyone’s questioned anyone’s bravery?

 

(edited to add, just reflecting, one of my pals in a pistolero outfit, of the type people buy books about, in pre-ceasefire NI, put one of his blokes on remedial pistol training when the bloke wounded, but didn’t kill, an RPG wannabe who  appeared out of a doorway in front of him. Good training is just good training).

[ds1]

This was today in Greenwich. I don’t know what the answer is to that other than several bullets if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not that you can in the U.K. but what a depressing society, full respect to anyone having to deal with nut jobs like that.

 

[topscots1]

1 hour ago, ds1 said:

This was today in Greenwich. I don’t know what the answer is to that other than several bullets if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not that you can in the U.K. but what a depressing society, full respect to anyone having to deal with nut jobs like that.

 

Something other than a weak sentence and a deep understanding of the deprived background of the thugs involved.  
 

There is very little that can be done in some areas of the U.K..

would anyone fancy going up against them with a cayenne pepper spray and a baton made in China.

I’m a firm believer all police should be armed.  

[Popsbengo]

22 minutes ago, topscots1 said:

Something other than a weak sentence and a deep understanding of the deprived background of the thugs involved.  
 

There is very little that can be done in some areas of the U.K..

would anyone fancy going up against them with a cayenne pepper spray and a baton made in China.

I’m a firm believer all police should be armed.  

Can't agree at all with your final point.  We do not need that,  90% of policing outside of urban hot-spots is more than adequately done without the need for the 'threat' of being shot.

[nCognitos]

19 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

Can't agree at all with your final point.  We do not need that,  90% of policing outside of urban hot-spots is more than adequately done without the need for the 'threat' of being shot.

Agreed, once you routinely arm the police, then you effectively arm the criminals who will need to keep up, which will lead to more restrictive firearms legislation for the rest of us.

Do what the Japanese do, deploy a futon, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-pacific-38534288.

You could just imagine it, 'here Ted, looks a bit dicey, I think we'd better deploy the futon from the back of the panda', ' right 'ho Bert, I'll just radio through to control for a futon risk assessment and the futon deployment authority, you start on the paperwork'.

 

[brown dog]

5 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

Can't agree at all with your final point.  We do not need that,  90% of policing outside of urban hot-spots is more than adequately done without the need for the 'threat' of being shot.

Can’t agree with that😂. The world has changed - modern Islamist threats require armed coppers everywhere a la continent, not just London. Response times outside the metropolis are simply frightening. Luckily not been tested. Yet.
 

That said, lots of coppers don’t want to be armed - unless that’s changed recently. I even remember patrolling with RUC peelers in pre-ceasefire NI who openly stated there were zero circumstances in which they would draw their pistol - they would leave it to us to sort.

[terryh]

Bit off OP but feel we are currently 'lucky' that the yobs have not discovered house invasions to any great degree.

As BD points out response times away from any town are in the 1/2 hours, least was when I lived in Cornwall.

Everyone thinks things are 'nice' and safe until something happens to you or one of your family, you then realise how useless the system can be/is.

Don't think I'd fancy being an armed cop in todays environment, which is actually a bit hypocritical of me 🙄

[ds1]

Matt, it would be an up hill battle to arm the U.K. police. Management would see any Bobby with a firearm as a potential career threat. God forbid a ‘bad shooting’ with a woke media. Many police officers would see it also as career threatening- physical test, psychological test, re-fresh and qualification courses. H&S would require more advanced first aid , ballistic not just stab vest. Probably not so appealing and stressful to many officers. I also think percentage hit rates would be going down not up by a considerable margin - at least now you select the best candidates to become Firearms Officers.

Dont get me wrong, I do feel the Czech system of a fully armed police force and civilian CCW is excellent . it’s just that the Czechs had a different history from oppression under communism and nazi Germany to learn from.

 

[Dellboy]

3 hours ago, ds1 said:

Matt, it would be an up hill battle to arm the U.K. police. Management would see any Bobby with a firearm as a potential career threat. God forbid a ‘bad shooting’ with a woke media. Many police officers would see it also as career threatening- physical test, psychological test, re-fresh and qualification courses. H&S would require more advanced first aid , ballistic not just stab vest. Probably not so appealing and stressful to many officers. I also think percentage hit rates would be going down not up by a considerable margin - at least now you select the best candidates to become Firearms Officers.

Dont get me wrong, I do feel the Czech system of a fully armed police force and civilian CCW is excellent . it’s just that the Czechs had a different history from oppression under communism and nazi Germany to learn from.

 

Having spoken to a met police officer who was signing up to became a firearms officer  it was a scary conversation  something like

Do you shoot now ?              answer  NO

Have you ever shot a gun ?  answer  NO never even held one

Showed him some vids on my phone from our last visit      i thought he was going to faint

 

Thank whoever your god may be they arent all like him (or he fails miserably )

 

Something only Dave will understand   .... You can imagine Rory's comments .........

 

[nCognitos]

Maybe it's like the household cavalry, I've heard they prefer non-riders, no bad habits to break.

For most experienced shots pointing a gun at someone wouldn't come naturally, perhaps better to start with someone who doesn't know any better?

[Popsbengo]

52 minutes ago, nCognitos said:

Maybe it's like the household cavalry, I've heard they prefer non-riders, no bad habits to break.

For most experienced shots pointing a gun at someone wouldn't come naturally, perhaps better to start with someone who doesn't know any better?

I think the reality is that only a vanishingly small percentage of folk of recruitment age actually shoot anyway (excepting shotguns).  Our experience of trying to recruit younger (ie under 30) members is dire - more interested in hipster beards and face cream.  Possibly wielded a wide range of firearms on "Call of Duty" but that is all!