nCognitos

I got the AT-One version with the heavy match barrel but I quickly swapped the stock as it was too small. Works really well with the Form stock instead and looks very pretty. The LRP was just too ugly for me. Anyway, you can see the size comparison below. In any version, it's a lovely accurate rifle.

Don't know if this helps but these are the results of my load testing, 5 rounds at each weight. Usual health warning, these are presented for entertainment only, you should work up your own loads, these are my loads in my gun with N140 and PPU 174gn heads in PPU brass. I was aiming for 2,470ft/s which is book speed but decided to use 41gn. Its OK at 600yds, will try at 900 at some point this weekend. 40gn will be fine at 500yds

How very odd, you should complain. Affiliated club members can use the zero range on the day of, or on the day before a club shoot. I used to do it and I know non-NRA members of the club with SCC's do it now. However, no SCC and its game over. When booking as a club member, I booked through the club and toddled off to shoot on my own. To be fair, this involves a trip to the shelter behind the range office to sign in, no actual contact with range office staff these days. Anyway, not going to enquire too closely, don't want to queer the pitch for anyone else.

I have both, just need to remember that 1 Mil is about 3.5MOA, (actually 3.38 MOA but who is going to be that precise!) and that 3 clicks is about a Mil, works well enough for government work as they say. After 30 years I'm just going back to using plotting sheets I'm going to set up my turrets on the zero range tomorrow to read 0/0 at 300yds and then plot from there. It really is much simpler on TR vernier sights, which give an absolute reference but I will make it work somehow.

Here you go, I hope it's what your are after. https://serc.org.uk/assets/files/How-to-do-Full-Bore-Plotting-by-Nic-Boyde.pdf

You're not wrong but it is a bit more nuanced than that. Before I re-joined the NRA, I used to book range time at Bisley through my club and shoot on my own, but I did have an SCC. If I didn't have an SCC then I would need to have been under Club RCO supervision. NSRA isn't like the NRA, it's an afternoon so it's not so much of a ball-ache. No military range stuff.

Just had this same issue come up at Sywell, where there is an expectation that an RCO is present, fortunately the NSRA RCO course is a one day affair and it looks like all the members who shoot solo at Sywell will need to do it. At the same time it was also said that if anyone was using a magazine with their rifle, they would need to be RCO qualified or supervised but this got stomped on pretty quickly. This is Bisley, where the nice gentleman in the red shirt marked Range Safety, drives around the site all session in his white pick-up truck. It's also pretty rare that you would be the only shooter on a range, though it has happened, I've had the whole of Century to myself on a rare occasion. I think its more of an issue somewhere like Sywell, where you could be completely alone on site. I think the logic would be someone who has got the RCO badge would be less likely to do something dumb. I have mixed feelings, while I am competent to shoot on my own, I prefer there to be someone else on site. Also, I believe my NRA insurance would cover me, even at a NSRA range however there are the range regulations to consider.

The rumour at Bisley last week was that all handloaders would have to have an SCC endorsement. They would need to have done an accredited course with the accreditation body being the NRA itself. This is all due to a person whom, it is rumoured, mixed up rifle and pistol powders in a load. For those clubs that have been running reloading courses these will be assessed and, if satisfactory, a path may be put in place to get the qualification. Of course this was rumour and should all be filed under the category of gossip. The rumoured implementation date would be the end of this year. Personally, I hope it is just all rumour and gossip but if true it would be better than the alternative of factory ammo only.

Well, I could but the SE is 2.803 which if you work it out tells you very little more than the SD, so going for a 95% confidence level, thats 2,716±5.6 fps. Thanks for that, I'm using N150, I'm going to test down the other way with smaller charges tomorrow, and see if I can get that flat spot or obvious best point. Then I can focus on seating depth. I've done load testing before but I've never had a situation where the SD's and ES were so similar across a grain variation in powder, with very similar group sizes, it struck me as odd but perhaps my friend is right, the barrel just doesn't care. I'm going to shoot max 1,200yds so I have some leeway to bring the charge down and still have the speed. My daughter was shooting at 1,000yds on Sunday and getting excellent results with slightly lighter loads that I put together for her to plink with, so I'd like to explore that space a little more.

So, there seems to be a real absence of understanding of the way statistics work. There is no minimum number of samples for a meaningful results, what counts is confidence level generated by the margin of error, you keep taking data until you achieve the confidence level that you desire, and you can do this with 4, 5 or 6 samples, as long as they are representative. More samples will increase your confidence but it's not linear and quickly becomes the subject of diminishing returns. So for my data, taken at 37.2gn and running it through a stats calculator I have an average of 2,682ft/s. From that I get a confidence of 68% that the results for the population will be 2,682 ± 2.49, and a 99% confidence that the results will be 2,682 ± 6.41. I'm afraid that that is just the way maths works. Anyway, I got an answer to my question elsewhere so I will leave it at that.

I really am not interested in a discussion on methodology, but if anyone has an opinion on the original question, I would be grateful. I must say it's much more difficult with this rifle and calibre, everything else I have gives a clear answer straight away.

Dirty Barrel, I do 5 fouling shots with factory ammo before I start. I disagree with you, the MV variation across one grain of load are equivalent to about 0.6MOA, which is the difference between a V and a 5. To be honest, I'm not asking to be trolled about my methodology, simply asking for help in its interpretation as the results are so different to what I expect, as demonstrated by the .303 results.

5 rounds 20 step ladder prepared of 100 rounds, started in the middle with a view to work up or work down depending on MV and pressure signs, all looked good so worked up and stopped at 38.4, I had loads up to 39 but I thought I could see very feint pressure signs around the primer so I stopped at 38.4 Once I have it narrowed down, I will load up 10 at each increment for MV and grouping but I don't really want more than 5 increments for this. I really am a bit bemused by this, my mate who was with me said load what you like, the gun doesn't care! I did some .303 at the same time and got the results below, which are much more what I expected, the answer is obvious, go with 41gn. Charge Weight Average High Low ES SD 40.4 2370 2383 2349 34 16 40.6 2382 2421 2354 67 25 40.8 2414 2434 2400 34 12 41 2424 2437 2416 21 8 41.2 2435 2462 2418 44 17 41.4 2445 2467 2428 39 17 41.6 2459 2470 2444 26 11 41.8 2472 2486 2457 29 14

Thanks, my other problem is there was no appreciable change in group size across the entire range but that was on an Electronic target at 300yds. Will go again with 37.4 to 38 on paper and see what that tells me.

I did some load testing with my 6.5CM using N150 and Lapua 139 Scenars. From the data below, should I go with: (i) the velocity node at 37.8? (ii) the ES/SD node at 37.4? (iii) stop overthinking it, the SD's are so close it makes no difference, just load for the MV I want? GRT gives nodes at 37gn and 38gn and tells me the max load (38.4gn) is 6% below max pressure. 38gn would be 9% below PMax and 37.4 would be 15% below PMax. Charge Weight Average High Low ES SD 37.2 2682 2690 2675 15 6 37.4 2690 2694 2684 11 5 37.6 2712 2719 2705 14 6 37.8 2716 2726 2711 15 6 38 2725 2732 2718 13 5 38.2 2739 2750 2732 17 7 38.4 2751 2760 2744 16 6

Received today, thank you very much

Hi, Not heard much since I paid you on 19 April, are these on the way?

I will take these, message sent

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 Ahh.. daughters, you've got to love them or you would cry! I'm not sure I'd worry about the lack of youngsters, if your is anything like mine, then she might enjoy the adult environment. Mine is certainly the youngest by at least ten years + in the club. Incedentally, I took the pic rail off my CZ and used dovetail rings with the scope, it brought the scope to about 4mm off the barrel, it looked really cool. From memory the CFT has odd sized rails, so this may not be an option for you. Don't forget to let her loose with a semi, I've got 3 x 25 round mags for mine but I only give her one, otherwise she would blaze off a brick of ammo in a morning. It's wonderful when nothing has a cost... 😁

Your girls are probably a bit young, give them a few years until they want to start doing adult things, my daughter showed no interest until suddenly one day she did! I have heard of kids down to 9 or 10 shooting under special supervision but not seen it. I think 14 was the right age for her, she wanted to do it, it's the minimum age to join the club and she was just emerging from her tomboy phase into nail varnish and lipstick, so taking an interest in grown up things. I still think she's a bit immature but the good thing about her being in the club is that I was told to stop hovering at her shoulder and back off, so she could learn the same as everyone else. Probably the best bit of advice for both of us.

My daughter started when she was 14 the minimum Bisley age, she is 15 now and quite slight in build. She shoots about twice a month at gallery, 100yds, 200yds, 300yds and 300 McQueens with a .223 and factory 55gr Magtech ammunition. As well as shooting with the club, of which she is a probationary member, I have booked a half-day electronic target through the club so we could go down with a picnic and shoot but she much prefers the club atmosphere with all the people milling around, despite the fact she has her head buried in her phone, she enjoys the company. When its just the two of us, I think she feels obliged to make conversation, in a group, there is always someone else for me to talk to! She has particularly taken to the McQueens, having shot it twice and wants to do more. Up to now, we have focussed on safety, as far as the shooting goes it's point at the middle and pull the trigger. As she is getting more comfortable I have started introducing the fundamentals of marksmanship, though we are only up to position and breathing. We pay our £5 every trip to Bisley and spend 20 minutes on the zero range working on MOA adjustments, she cleans her own gun and has just reloaded her first batch of 100 rounds of 69gr, under supervision. The only bit I didn't let her do is the case cleaning as I don't want her exposed to all that yuck just yet, everything else she did. I found a pre-loved Howa 1500, 1 in 9 twist barrel in a GRS Berserk stock with moderator at a very reasonable price (£550), the scope on top is an Athlon Argos BTR Gen 2 6-24 x 50 and it works just fine, though it's not my favourite value scope. We tried it out to 600yds and while she was hitting the right spot, (we checked by firing into the sand), the electronic target was only registering occasional shots, the NRA chap said this was because of the light heads, they register just fine on targets up to 300yds. We have some 69gr heads loaded to try at 600yds on Saturday, my friend with the same rifle uses 75gr heads beyond 600yds but I think that would be the very limit for this rifle. She has just chosen a Bergara 6.5 CM for use at 600yds and beyond, which I picked up on Friday, at the moment it has a Hawke 6-32 x 56 Sidewinder on it, but because of her build, she wants to shoot with the .223 as much as possible, she can shoot that all day, with the larger calibres she has to put on a shoulder pad and she wants to stop after 2 x 10 round details. So far, she has used .223, .308, .22, .357, .44, Saturday will be her first go with the 6.5 CM. I'm glad that she joined the club, as well as the structured probationary and zeroing course, it's a requirement that she shoots gallery, standing, prone, bench 100yds, 300yds, 300 McQueens and 600yds and of course, she gets to try all the club guns. Her probationary class have all passed through, I'm stretching out her time to finish with the next class so she gets more trigger time and more practice. Oddly enough, I gave up hunting and stalking when she was born, now she wants to stalk. I'm arranging for her to accompany a local stalker, if she can cope with the gore, then the .223 might get traded up to a .243. I took her along to a Target-F/TR club I was thinking of joining but she wasn't that impressed, I think her future is probably towards Civilian Service Rifle and the semi-auto gallery competitions, but the important thing to let her have a go at everything and then decide. My own interests are long range rimfire and historic service rifle, I also hope to get back into target rifle, so we don't overlap, she has no interest in even shouldering a .303 or 7.5. As you can tell, these are both very budget scopes, I will have to report back on the Hawkes performance on the 6.5 CM but I have an even cheaper Hawke Vantage on my 7.5x 55 and it has stood up to hundreds of rounds without issue. I used the Athlon for load development on my .303 and it didn't have any problems with that. I save my good glass for long distance rimfire, where I need 100MOA+ of adjustment, so the scopes she is using are my cast offs. If she develops her strength and takes to the 6.5, then I will look at better glass in due course. I have my eye on an IoR myself so she may well get another cast off, (Delta Stryker 5-50). Anyway, if you have something lying around use that, the Sightron will be fine, otherwise there are a lot of mid-range scopes with good enough glass, and with little or no CA, assuming you are not shooting at dawn or dusk. In order of recommendation from worst to best of the cheaper £300 - £1,500 scopes I have used, last is Athlon, then Discovery, Hawke, Vortex and top of the pile Delta. The Delta is extraordinarily good value, I have a fixed mag Zeiss and the Delta is the match of it. I would definitely make it variable to at least x20 and FFP removes a complication, though my daughter eventually got her head around SFP. Good luck, my girl and I have always got on but having a shared hobby has brought us closer, which is really important at that age when the tendency is to drift apart. Photo 1 is her at 100yds with a club .223, photo 2 is a .44 lever on gallery, note the extra padding required for the .44!

+1 on what everyone else says, I use a 5 -50 x 56 on my rimfire for long range, because it has a huge elevation adjustment (100 MOA), on a 30 MOA rail I can dial out to 400yds. Crystal clear and, a bonus for my aged eyes, huge numbers on the turrets. Solid piece of kit, though I should add, only had it for a week so these are first impressions. (I was looking for an IOR, that would have given me 120MOA at £1k more and with a 40mm tube but I think I lucked out getting this, thanks to OW for the advice).

Because they are pig ugly and raise the scope too far off the barrel. And yes, looks do matter to me, I'd rather pay for an IOR or similar scope with the adjustment built in than strap that thing to my rifle...... 😁The RWS R100 ammo made a hell of a difference in the elevation required, when compare to my usual SK Long Range, popped into the NSRA to buy some afterwards. I also dislike anything adjustable in a scope mount, I want it bolted solidly with no adjustment possible. I used to have a 20MOA rail but that raised the scope too far off the rifle, so it had to go. Anyway, currently after something that offers the adjustment I need for 500yds, with a little shimming.

I'm in the market for an IOR, what's the elevation adjustment on this? Reason I am asking is I need something with an obscene level of adjustment as I've just joined the Long Range Rimfire Club and my 17Mil (60MOA) scope will get me to 300 but no further.

Yeah... I'm not the bolshie type, if he wants records, I will give him records, a happy FEO is an easier life for me. Anyway, all this is beside the point, the OP asked a question many months ago, and I have provided an answer and an example of how I meet his requirements. I am not getting into a political discussion on firearms legislation and it's application in practice. By all means manage your affairs as you wish and allow me to do the same.