2, then 9 more?!

[nCognitos]

35 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

I think the reality is that only a vanishingly small percentage of folk of recruitment age actually shoot anyway (excepting shotguns).  Our experience of trying to recruit younger (ie under 30) members is dire - more interested in hipster beards and face cream.  Possibly wielded a wide range of firearms on "Call of Duty" but that is all!

Funny you should say that.  Was trying to get my 17 year old son into it, he had a go but said it wasn't anything like the 'real thing' on Call of Duty.

Had more luck with my daughter but it scares me the way she completely zones out and focuses on mechanically sending pellet after pellet down range.  She just becomes a shooting machine and wo betide me if I don't have her next mag ready on time!

 

[terryh]

Think police have always been a bit anti anyone who'd shot before. Many years ago at my old pistol club we had police who wanted to practice but could not be seen to be practicing with us, all very strange.

41 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

Possibly wielded a wide range of firearms on "Call of Duty" but that is all!

About sums it up 😁

[TSG]

With the greatest respect to all of the comments made I think you have to realise how much the Police has changed over the past 40 years. (Not for the best I should add) I was an armed officer for 28 out of my 30 years in the UK Police and still spend my days training armed officers for different customers. The points I would make are:

We train them to shoot to stop people. This may include critical shots if there is a body worn IED or vehicle attack.  
The officers vary. They get if they are lucky around 15-20 days training per year. (In the 1990s I had at least 50 days per year)

Apart from ex forces (who do have to work hard to pass the basic police selection just to be a cop) few of them have used firearms in the past

The best students are generally ex forces or female because the listen to the instruction.

The training is dictated by the College of policing training  curriculum. If you don’t follow it you get effectively shut down. 

I think all officers should be armed now. (Or at least given basic training) There are a lot of us (the old and bold) who realise this would now be a step towards a more professional Police service in the future. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[Popsbengo]

3 hours ago, nCognitos said:

Funny you should say that.  Was trying to get my 17 year old son into it, he had a go but said it wasn't anything like the 'real thing' on Call of Duty.

Had more luck with my daughter but it scares me the way she completely zones out and focuses on mechanically sending pellet after pellet down range.  She just becomes a shooting machine and wo betide me if I don't have her next mag ready on time!

 

Our experience too!  The few youngsters we have and who 'stick' for a bit are girls.  I also find that more girls can do DIY than young lads these days (not a scientific study, just my old fart observation).

Re: @TSG - thanks for an informed and informative view

[Richiew]

Was told by aSF mate that double tap is a load of crap . Basically fill them full of lead , ie dump a full mag into the threat,switch to spare firearm while reloading first gun , when safe to do so . I was shocked at the violence used but fully understand that they’re not playing around here . 

[ds1]

On 6/4/2021 at 3:17 PM, TSG said:

With the greatest respect to all of the comments made I think you have to realise how much the Police has changed over the past 40 years. (Not for the best I should add) I was an armed officer for 28 out of my 30 years in the UK Police and still spend my days training armed officers for different customers. The points I would make are:

We train them to shoot to stop people. This may include critical shots if there is a body worn IED or vehicle attack.  
The officers vary. They get if they are lucky around 15-20 days training per year. (In the 1990s I had at least 50 days per year)

Apart from ex forces (who do have to work hard to pass the basic police selection just to be a cop) few of them have used firearms in the past

The best students are generally ex forces or female because the listen to the instruction.

The training is dictated by the College of policing training  curriculum. If you don’t follow it you get effectively shut down. 

I think all officers should be armed now. (Or at least given basic training) There are a lot of us (the old and bold) who realise this would now be a step towards a more professional Police service in the future. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

TSG,

I had a group of 3 females and one male last week ( slicing the pie and attacking the crack) and a security company, agreed females are very good at following step by step building blocks for basic skill drills and manipulation (biggest issues are usually with pistols not carbines). This tends to hold true over different ‘bandwidths’. I don’t (cannot) instruct state police but I do instruct what you would call county / sheriffs police which are in general lower bandwidth and security companies and sport shooters which I think are higher bandwidth in general. Once you are past the basics what separates the wheat from the chaff to me is aggression (not the road-rage type) but the mentality to drive or go forward. Some clients want various degrees of stress induced - mental ( number boards and maths) to physically fitness or water boarding. It’s really just letting them push their boundaries. Sport shooters can do this very well- watch top level IPSC shooters, they don’t move or jog from position to position but rather an explosive drive. I can instruct the techniques but can only facilitate the amount of effort or drive someone wants to put in.

Hopefully the army gets rid of any chaff before they get near a gun in basic training. How would you do this with U.K. police for a fully armed police? The Czech system is OK but normal police only at best get 50 rounds per month stand and bang training. It’s less than ideal.

Rounds down range do make a big difference with pistol skills and drills. Personally if I shoot 5k per year I am ok, 10k I am better than ok but a mate who I was level pegging with now puts over 50k a year down range and pi**es all over me. By comparison top IPSC shooters put 100k-200k rounds down range a year, and that is just pistol, no surprise that they are faster than a fast thing.

[Popsbengo]

3 hours ago, ds1 said:

TSG,

I had a group of 3 females and one male last week ( slicing the pie and attacking the crack) and a security company, agreed females are very good at following step by step building blocks for basic skill drills and manipulation (biggest issues are usually with pistols not carbines). This tends to hold true over different ‘bandwidths’. I don’t (cannot) instruct state police but I do instruct what you would call county / sheriffs police which are in general lower bandwidth and security companies and sport shooters which I think are higher bandwidth in general. Once you are past the basics what separates the wheat from the chaff to me is aggression (not the road-rage type) but the mentality to drive or go forward. Some clients want various degrees of stress induced - mental ( number boards and maths) to physically fitness or water boarding. It’s really just letting them push their boundaries. Sport shooters can do this very well- watch top level IPSC shooters, they don’t move or jog from position to position but rather an explosive drive. I can instruct the techniques but can only facilitate the amount of effort or drive someone wants to put in.

Hopefully the army gets rid of any chaff before they get near a gun in basic training. How would you do this with U.K. police for a fully armed police? The Czech system is OK but normal police only at best get 50 rounds per month stand and bang training. It’s less than ideal.

Rounds down range do make a big difference with pistol skills and drills. Personally if I shoot 5k per year I am ok, 10k I am better than ok but a mate who I was level pegging with now puts over 50k a year down range and pi**es all over me. By comparison top IPSC shooters put 100k-200k rounds down range a year, and that is just pistol, no surprise that they are faster than a fast thing.

50k a year !   If I was buying 9mm PPU that would be over £20k !!  Even if it's all reloads I'd think +£15k.  So the top IPSC shooters 'invest' around £80k in ammo per annum? That's commitment (or something else).

 

[ds1]

Pops,

A Dillon 1050 was not good enough so he bought a pair of Mark 7 Evolution presses - one dedicated to 9mm minor and PCC and the other for 9mm Major. It’s still very expensive. The only thing that has stopped him or me from getting through obscene amounts of 9mm in PCC with Sig mpx carbines is replacing hammer and recoil springs every 15k rounds, which nobody has in stock except in the US. The Sig mpx is a real addiction for me though.

Not sure how much top shooters get sponsored but I don’t think that much. Certainly my mate shooting 50k gets nothing. Equipment cost is frightening, a 9mm major pistol (race gun) cost about £4k+ you need 2 or sooner 3 identical- one practice, one match and one is broken. 9mm Major eats frames and slides around the 25k-40k mark. Also limit down time on the range by having 10 or 15 mags for each platform that you can pre-load at home......not bad for a cz Shadow but 2011 prices are horrible.

 

[Popsbengo]

44 minutes ago, ds1 said:

Pops,

A Dillon 1050 was not good enough so he bought a pair of Mark 7 Evolution presses - one dedicated to 9mm minor and PCC and the other for 9mm Major. It’s still very expensive. The only thing that has stopped him or me from getting through obscene amounts of 9mm in PCC with Sig mpx carbines is replacing hammer and recoil springs every 15k rounds, which nobody has in stock except in the US. The Sig mpx is a real addiction for me though.

Not sure how much top shooters get sponsored but I don’t think that much. Certainly my mate shooting 50k gets nothing. Equipment cost is frightening, a 9mm major pistol (race gun) cost about £4k+ you need 2 or sooner 3 identical- one practice, one match and one is broken. 9mm Major eats frames and slides around the 25k-40k mark. Also limit down time on the range by having 10 or 15 mags for each platform that you can pre-load at home......not bad for a cz Shadow but 2011 prices are horrible.

 

😟😳  I'll stick to my cheap .338LM 😎

[nCognitos]

4 hours ago, Popsbengo said:

50k a year !   If I was buying 9mm PPU that would be over £20k !!  Even if it's all reloads I'd think +£15k.  So the top IPSC shooters 'invest' around £80k in ammo per annum? That's commitment (or something else).

 

Dude, you need to find somewhere else to buy your ammo!!  50k 9mm from the NRA armoury at Bisley would be £13.5k, if reloading about half that (500 lead bullets from Henry Krank are £38.90 and you will need about 30lbs of powder, so that's about £1,400).  Still a lot but £500 a month is manageable assuming you don't drink, own a car or socialise in any way. 

[ds1]

Helps to buy in bulk. Powder multiple 20kg pots, bullets 30+k lots and primers - as many as you can. Purchase is from the factory or distributor. Money is not the issue with these people (usually successful business owners). The issue is time, with a commitment to train 4 or 5 times a week, but the same can be said of going to the gym to train, it’s a commitment.