2, then 9 more?!

[brown dog]

11 to stop?!  😳   What were they using, blanks?

[Popsbengo]

I suggest a 45-70 or shotgun slug - that would be useful stopper.  .458 SOCOM?  

[Catch-22]

Clearly it was 2x to the chest, whereas it should really have been 2x to the head at point blank.

[meles meles]

Still leaves 9 rounds AWOL.

[brown dog]

Assumed it was 5.56 at about 10ft for the first two.    

They’re using the wrong bullet, if he sat up from that.

[phoenix]

5.56?

I thought it was 9mm handguns they were using.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

[brown dog]

No idea. I’m armchair commandoing it from the news pics.

[Roy W]

I expect they all fancied a go while they could

[terryh]

Does read a bit ‘iffy’, from memory of the videos at the time it was handguns initially.

not exactly great advertising for armed plod 😳

[Dellboy]

Dragged the civilian off then  carbines  (556 or 9 mm ?)

[Mattnall]

He had a bomb. If he is still moving, keep shooting. Oh, and don't hit the bomb!

 

Afterwards it wasn't a bomb but the assumption and from reports, a bomb was in the mix so act accordingly I'd have thought.
And brave to walk towards someone that may blow up the whole area, you along with it.

 

[topscots1]

16 hours ago, terryh said:

Does read a bit ‘iffy’, from memory of the videos at the time it was handguns initially.

not exactly great advertising for armed plod 😳

Quite good advertising reply the threat was eliminated.  
 

fire until the threat no longer presents, one round or twenty dead is dead there were no  injuries from shoot through.

 

it would be nice to be presented a nice T-box shot.  But on this day unfortunately not.

 

It would be nice to think that the police have hours of training to deal with SBIED however your average armed officer likely does not.  
 

this culture of looking to blame and criticise in hindsight at every opportunity is not healthy.  
 

in the unlikely event that most people come across a suicide bomber they will go guns empty either that’s a 20 round magazine or a two hundred belt. 
 

2 to the chest one to the head and headshot drills are just that.    Reality is rarely anything like training. 

[terryh]

Topscots 

Sorry, the police have not done me any favours both in relation to shooting nor personally when needed so I will criticise.

If you feel shooting a potential suicide bomber and not checking they are actually dead is good SOP then plugging them multiple times 10 minutes later when he wakes up we can agree to disagree.

Concur I would not know what to do if confronted with a bomber.

If the average armed policeman is as you say not sufficiently trained then he should not be armed - period.

[topscots1]

50 minutes ago, terryh said:

Topscots 

Sorry, the police have not done me any favours both in relation to shooting nor personally when needed so I will criticise.

If you feel shooting a potential suicide bomber and not checking they are actually dead is good SOP then plugging them multiple times 10 minutes later when he wakes up we can agree to disagree.

Concur I would not know what to do if confronted with a bomber.

If the average armed policeman is as you say not sufficiently trained then he should not be armed - period.

I am sorry your interactions with the police have been negative.

 

 The n regards to checking a potential suicide bomber is dead,  and f they are down they are not a threat.  Unfortunately the practicalities of checked by a pulse and  breathing of someone possibly attached to explosives and shipyard confetti somewhat confuse the situation.  
 

perhaps they were following SOPS whilst awaiting an EOD team to analyse and disrupt the device if needed ?

when the threat re-presented they in turn re-engaged 

 

my statement is not that they are not sufficiently trained.

they may not be fully conversant with engaging SBIED threats, not many people are.  Given it is a limited threat

 

and even fewer know how they will react until that threat becomes a reality.
 

i would stand by the fact that those officers done well to neutralise the threat.

[Shuggy]

I think that they were fortunate not to have injuries from shoot throughs - there were several more holes in the nearby bus. However, I am not going to pass judgement on officers who showed extraordinary bravery in running towards a suspected suicide bomb.

The firearms appear to be the Met issued Sig MCX in 5.56. The apparent lack of effect may have something to do with the dinky 11.5” barrel, which substantially reduces velocity and lethality. The CTSFOs are apparently moving to 300 Blackout, which works much better from a shorter barrel, as well as being much more effective against body armour.

 

[brown dog]

Umm, the thread wasn’t criticising the police; it was questioning the effectiveness of whatever this qunt was being hit with.

2 rounds of 5.56 point blank (if that’s what hit him first) shouldn’t be something a person sits up from 10 minutes later.

I suspect they may, literally, be using the wrong bullets.

 

( that said, as regards stress-shooting, I’d stand correction, but I believe that these armed cops are CT types, selected and trained to respond to specifically these situations - and, being totally objective, at the distances involved, 9 ‘lost shots’ at a single sedentary/prone (ie static) target is ‘surprising’.)

[Shuggy]

No criticism inferred!

Ammunition may well have been a factor, but my point was that there are very few types which will expand and perform effectively at ~2,500 fps.

 

[brown dog]

30 minutes ago, Shuggy said:

 

The firearms appear to be the Met issued Sig MCX in 5.56. The apparent lack of effect may have something to do with the dinky 11.5” barrel, which substantially reduces velocity and lethality.

 

Possibly - no idea what the MV drops to, not how it equates at <20ft to a round from a ‘normal’ barrel.   

Knowing that even ball ammo fragments at the sort of distances seen here, I’d hazard a guess they’re using ammo designed to defeat barricades etc …and it’s pencilled through….. literally the wrong bullets

 

 

[brown dog]

1 minute ago, Shuggy said:

No criticism inferred!

 

 

Sorry, that bit wasn’t at you!   It was at the people saying ‘how brave’ and missing the point that he shouldn’t be able to sit up after two point-blank hits, I sense there’s a weapon system issue at play.

[Shuggy]

This is a very well known photo. Stumpy barrels may be handy but are not really a good idea in 5.56.

[brown dog]

2 minutes ago, Shuggy said:

This is a very well known photo. Stumpy barrels may be handy but are not really a good idea in 5.56.

Point taken.

Don’t know what bullet that is, but even ss109 fragments like the top row ‘point blank’ and anything torso at that distance has very very low survivability. Hence my surprise at the qunt sitting up.

The drop-off your pic shows sub 2500 is marked. A pencil.   

Now, if they were using TBBC projectiles too…

 

[Roy W]

Shuggy is correct, the Met CTSFO's did change to .300 Blackout in their MPX's quite a while ago.

[brown dog]

9 minutes ago, Roy W said:

Shuggy is correct, the Met CTSFO's did change to .300 Blackout in their MPX's quite a while ago.

Before or after the event in question?

[Roy W]

3 minutes ago, brown dog said:

Before or after the event in question?

I was told well before that, probably a good 1-2years ago.  These appear to be ARV though, rather than CTSFO's although I could be wrong. They got there very quick if they were.

The CTSFO's I've had dealings with in the past few years are easily recognisable by the clothing being two sizes too small, and the current assortment of badges they now wear, which makes them look like oversize Boy Scouts.

They've copied the Sniper Qual badge for Rifle Officers, they have some sort of bird badge (Albatross or Budgie, can't remember) and those who went to the Manchester Bombing (after the event) wear a badge with a Bumble Bee on it. It all looks rather me, me, me.

If the SAS began wearing Pink Tutu's, you could guarantee Police Procurement would be getting purchase orders out for them a few weeks later! 

[brown dog]

😂

Are non-CTSFOs still on 5.56?  

Pretty depressing if the 300’s ability to neutralise is what was seen on the bridge