Ronin Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 There is always the Send It Series Same degree of competition, steel targetry and only £65 to enter Worth considering when we’re free of this damn virus I recall we (UK Varminting) had a team outing to WMS in wales to shoot steel plates Probably ten years ago, if not longer, the course of fire was devised by Brown Dog and WmS and a very good day we all had Nothing dissimilar to precision rifle shooting that is today For £75 quid Food for thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John MH Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 2 hours ago, One on top of two said: I just think that ( and this is just my opinion ) more effort should really be put into the rimfire PRL or at the very minimum the same amount! Do it, if you build it they will come 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean c Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 9 minutes ago, Ronin said: There is always the Send It Series Same degree of competition, steel targetry and only £65 to enter Worth considering when we’re free of this damn virus I recall we (UK Varminting) had a team outing to WMS in wales to shoot steel plates Probably ten years ago, if not longer, the course of fire was devised by Brown Dog and WmS and a very good day we all had Nothing dissimilar to precision rifle shooting that is today For £75 quid Food for thought Sorry slightly off topic but out of pure coincidence I've had the course of fire from that in the front pocket of my range mat since then, during the enforced tidying up period we're in I've just cleared it out. I was flicking through just thinking how good that was and how I'd like to try something similar again one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One on top of two Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 10 minutes ago, John MH said: Do it, if you build it they will come 😉 You know John. It wouldn’t hurt to make some enquires 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJR Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 "Probably ten years ago, if not longer, the course of fire was devised by Brown Dog and WmS and a very good day we all had Nothing dissimilar to precision rifle shooting that is today For £75 quid " That was an excellent day and puts into perspective today's PRL cost of £100/day including rcos and markers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch_egg Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 Now you have me chiming in. I don’t want to have to shoot the extreme long range day. I don’t mind £100 a day range fee. one day a weekend. 100 rounds. one over night stop. it halves the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJR Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 Scotch, absolutely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One on top of two Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 16 minutes ago, Scotch_egg said: Now you have me chiming in. I don’t want to have to shoot the extreme long range day. I don’t mind £100 a day range fee. one day a weekend. 100 rounds. one over night stop. it halves the cost. Yes I too would have to go along with that. Makes sense would also solve some of the issues some shooters have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 The simple fact is the PRL series sells out within about an hour of the entry going out......... People moan about sponsorship, again, the simple fact is that sponsors pick shooters with a proven track record, or go for the up and coming guys who show promise. Guess what ? You have to actually do it, to have any chance. As with all things in life, the rewards only go to the people who are prepared to put the hard work in, in the first place. Its still in its infancy, and I have no doubt that the organisers would love to have double the entries, and cheaper prices. There are only so many spaces per day, that you can logistically get through, due to range space/location. I agree, the rimfire league will be a huge step forward. You can basically run it on ANY farmland, and the list of venues could be 10 time than the full bore ranges we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One on top of two Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 20 minutes ago, baldie said: The simple fact is the PRL series sells out within about an hour of the entry going yes this is very true and it’s great If you can afford it 👍 I was going to be down for this years but hey ho . but this is not the point I was making I agree, the rimfire league will be a huge step forward. You can basically run it on ANY farmland, and the list of venues could be 10 time than the full bore ranges we have. this is my point , I feel this is the area that should be pushed more , there are lots of reasons why a lot of people can’t do the Fullbore PRL , and from the people I speak to it all seems to boil down to money , , the cost of the event , the ammo , accommodation, travel it’s just to much . by promoting the rimfire version , like I said it can be done virtually anyway furthest target will be 200 m max , that in turn will mean a lot less traveling up and down the country and that cuts down on the over night stays And the cost that involves , ammo will be next to nothing . All in all the costs and accessibility would be a lot easier . And hopefully bring in a load of new and younger talent. it certainly deserves the same attention as the Fullbore imho . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinBR Posted March 29, 2020 Report Share Posted March 29, 2020 For me the thing that would stop me would be the travel. Not the distance as much, but the actual time needed to go for a comp. Family life and work commitments limit what I can do shooting wise, which is why I currently only shoot 22lr. So the ability to get to a comp relatively close by and still challenge myself is what myself, and I would think a great deal of people are looking for. I for 1 am excited to see how things go in the 22lr PRL here in the Uk. You only need to look over the pond to see its growing success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tackb Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 it's quite simple to me , rather than moan about how expensive you think it is just go or don't go as it's entirely voluntary ? the very fact that it repeatedly sells out says a lot about the PRL and the effort tiff has put in. it's in it's infancy here in the UK and I personally think we as shooters should support it rather than snipe insidiously in the background , even if we can't/won't go what is the point of undermining it? re the SIS , I'm afraid due to well documented reasons I'm afraid I and a large proportion of current PRL shooters will not attend until certain irregularities are corrected by the organisers but if that was done then there is many who relish a shooting challenge and would be happy to attend and support all shooting in the UK. if you want to shoot the PRL you can just shoot that , the ELR is optional currently , on top of that you can do it on a budget , there is usually camping available or the bunkhouse at tiffs roundhouse venue , and kit wise if you can shoot well and your rifle is capable of 0.75moa you can win , a 0.2moa rifle will help your confidence but won't win PRL matches on it's own. so to sum up , try and find ways to support the PRL and shoot the newest most challenging and fun series in the UK rather than run it down ? also looking forward to a 22PRL ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One on top of two Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 29 minutes ago, tackb said: it's quite simple to me , rather than moan about how expensive you think it is just go or don't go as it's entirely voluntary ? the very fact that it repeatedly sells out says a lot about the PRL and the effort tiff has put in. it's in it's infancy here in the UK and I personally think we as shooters should support it rather than snipe insidiously in the background , even if we can't/won't go what is the point of undermining it? re the SIS , I'm afraid due to well documented reasons I'm afraid I and a large proportion of current PRL shooters will not attend until certain irregularities are corrected by the organisers but if that was done then there is many who relish a shooting challenge and would be happy to attend and support all shooting in the UK. if you want to shoot the PRL you can just shoot that , the ELR is optional currently , on top of that you can do it on a budget , there is usually camping available or the bunkhouse at tiffs roundhouse venue , and kit wise if you can shoot well and your rifle is capable of 0.75moa you can win , a 0.2moa rifle will help your confidence but won't win PRL matches on it's own. so to sum up , try and find ways to support the PRL and shoot the newest most challenging and fun series in the UK rather than run it down ? also looking forward to a 22PRL ! Yet again ... your missing the point ! this is about pushing the .22 PRL , it’s not and never has been about slagging any part of it off and there has been no slagging it off , as you put ! its about ALL shooters have the same chance and opportunity to have fun . But some can’t afford The Fullbore PRL for reasons that have already been stated . you go on about sticking together.... that’s the whole point . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 I dont think anyone is running any of the competitions down. I recall the F Class events also sell out very quickly - 80 plus competitors accommodated for. This is a discussion with constructive ideas - very little negativity and the cost to compete is an issue to many people - your quite correct, we can just not go if we cant afford to ..... another display of humanity at its best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Interesting that it appears to be around cost and travel time etc. Shooting can be (is) expensive, the costs are what they are, I've gone to comps in the US a few times, it costs more to get your rifle there than the entry fees. The existing PRL sells our quick = enough people that will make the effort and accept the cost, as Mike said do not think that that this money is a high % of profit, its not. Comparing it to entry fees for comp run at Bisley or any other range is not apples for apples, they already exist. Tiff's place and Orion are small venue private operations. Any of you can sort a shoot at Orion, UKV did so a few years ago, I do it now for my local club a couple of times a year, cost now would be closer to £200 for the day. The 22rf version sounds a good alternative, more ranges available and the COF's for the US 'postal' version available on the NRL 22 website, not many props, my old club, Tamar Rangers, are going to be running these (or were!). Dave, have to completely disagree with you on sponsorship, as soon as there is money involved the sport is over as far as I'm concerned, in creeps the silly shiny shirt brigade a la IPSC and it is all becomes about winning, just look at CAS in the US or even what the PRS/NRL are now compared to the original Snipers hide Cup/Bash etc. Not even close. Which is a shame as this type of shooting is great fun, probably the best discipline I've ever competed in - period (and I've shot a few), if you care to look I wrote and article about the SH Cup in Shooting sports in 2007 (Vol 9, issue 8). Enough rambling and back to the subject of the OP: 'What would you change?' Bin tripods and multiple bean bags - learn to shoot, the organisers go out of their way to make challenging stages that make you think/do different things only to have folks add multiple pillows and other augmentations to their rifles to turn it back into plinking. Yes, I know that's what they do in the US but do we have to copy? Bring the distances in to 800 yards max = competitive to all rifles not just the 'wind cheater' cartridges. The odd offhand stage plus reduced amount of added props reduces the attraction of 20 pound plus rifle (with options for adding weights - really 🤣) and get things back into perspective. I know these comments are going to ruffle a few feathers but you'd be a better rifleman if these were applied - honest! 😉 Terry Or put it another way: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 .....oooo! Anarchy 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Good suggestions Tel Bin tripod - shoot from sticks Bin the bags - learn to shoot Plus one from me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Ronin, Probably allow one bag just to compensate for shooting off a hard surface. T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One on top of two Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Yes one small been bag as said to compensate for hard surfaces. But size limited as to not really.be a rest of sorts more for protection. Also tripods ! Yes Bin those off for a kick off. as said learn to shoot. Because you can’t buy skill 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalahari Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, One on top of two said: Yes one small been bag as said to compensate for hard surfaces. But size limited as to not really.be a rest of sorts more for protection. Also tripods ! Yes Bin those off for a kick off. as said learn to shoot. Because you can’t buy skill 👍 Ain't that the truth. It is interesting though until I started stalking in this country all my game shooting in Africa was effectively freehand. This did mean you could kneel or sit as well as stand, but the only "aid" carried was a sling and in the heat that was to help carry the rifle, more than to use as an aid, water and spare cartridges was the max after that. David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Used sticks at the first Precision Rifle competition at Eskdalemuir didn’t hinder me , some used tripod and didn’t hit the targets all There was also a recumbent stage (off ones back) Amazingly steady position with some practise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John MH Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Tripods are rarely used successfully and time pressure usually prohibits getting a good steady setup. When I do use one if another member of the squad does not have one he's welcome to use mine. Bags are all different, PRL is about problem solving, too much time spent faffing with different bags will cost you, eventually you'll whittle it down to one or two. Most locations I've shot at require you to hump all your gear from A to B and C etc, carry too much kit and you'll suffer. A few thoughts: PRL is not 'Stalking' or 'Vermin' or shooting practice so don't try and compare the two, they have similarities but are also akin to other types of shooting. Avoid shiny sponsors shirts and the whole "IPSC' thing, I don't like that. Avoid cash or material prizes other than trophies for shooting well; promotes the wrong shooter behaviours. The two day format has been adopted on occasion to counter for the sometimes awful British weather in the hills and on the moors; I don't relish doing a 1000 mile round trip to get rained or more often 'fogged' off. A short range or maybe even shorter rimfire match might work as a back-up but that's another rifle. ELR, I like shooting my .300NM its like a 'frickin' laser beam. I'm looking forward to shooting the 33XC. I'm not too fussed about alternate PRL and PRL(ELR) days but if it is PRL(ERL) keep it all +1000 yards. Congratulate the organisers; I've organised many competitions, its a ball ache, I ran the RBL series of precision shooting matches at Bisley and raised over £35k for the Legion, I stopped after I got volunteered to go back to sea and no one, not even the NRA, was prepared to run it on because it was 'frickin' hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Yep, agree the organisors should be congratulated for the hard effort they put in Especially those that have done it for charity (like yourself John) - for the Royal Britsh Legion. Guys like Vince Bottomley deserve accolade for what they have done for shooting (RIFLE) sports in the UK - for little monetary gain and have turned around the appeal to many many people Id disagree that steel plate shooting and this type of competition is not good practise for killing deer where multiple cycles can be had at differing distances and from differing positions - I carry out quite a bit of culling each year - commercially and its ideal practice for that work, (obviously to a degree with the limiting point being distance) One of my collegues in this line of work also shoot precision rifle competition and agrees this point Extreme Long Range - not many places you can shoot beyond 1200 mtrs (beyond which is what id call extreme long range) limiting factors being wind reading ability of shooter / spotter, repeatability of shot and target hit spotting. Think a separate disipline entirley really given the kit required and easily spoiled by the weather if visibilty reduced I can see that appeal of being sponsored - shiny new kit, team shirts etc, but wouldnt is be better if the events rather than teams were sponsored. The sponsor could show their wares off at the event. Weather - suggest each competitor has to have a RF in the event of fog or low cloud, with suitable tagetry placed at shoter distances - the RF course used in event of poor visibilty ? Prizes - trophy excellent idea - no cash prizes. Raffle for charity with donated sponsor prize? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 Nothing again prize tables personally - current rifle is built on an action from a prize table 😎 No cash though! If you have a sponsors prize table there is a dedicated 1st place prize then everything else is by shooter number not result, their number is pulled from a hat and they come up and pick what they would like from the table - simples! (with the exception of who comes last, they get their entry back) Re. humping your gear - being and older fart that would really whittle down my kit, but that was the format for the original US shoots, what you had at the beginning of the day, rifle, pistol, ammo food etc. was it (water you could top up - it was Texas after all). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 John, Andy and Terry you are spot on with the mechanics of running a competition. I know that you are very experienced. My 2p as a range owner, instructor and someone who genuinely enjoys running courses is that things get Donald Ducked very quickly as soon as personalities enter the equation be it from organiser, sponsors or “leading” competitors. Really the organiser needs to run everything as a very tight ship or it will go pear shaped fast. Competitions tend to develop a “feeling” and a following and a large part it will be down to the personality of the organiser (s) and their motives be it financial or for charity or whatever may form part of that “feeling”. I like running courses on my range - I am in control of who, what and how.... and so far every course has been a positive experience for me and my guest I think. But my experience with competitions has been the complete opposite when I have let my range be used (for free) by local shooters for competitions - 1st experience bad, 2nd experience was bad - no third as I banned any more competitions on my range. I felt like a doormat being walked over. There is a distinct difference between a course and competition. The first is a learning experience the latter is more of an ego trip for some competitors. In general sponsors are the easiest aspect to deal with - it’s on a business level. They understand complex words like yes and no. Competitors, particularly if they happen also to be sponsors or if a sponsor has a team seems to have a negative impact. Really competitions are just as much as reflection of the competitors as the organisers - look at the early days of practical Pistol vs USPSA / IPSC I am not sure that I like the “evolution “. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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