Behind the license revocation

[Moorlander]

25 minutes ago, Elwood said:

Incorrect I'm afraid.

So how do you get your wages on a shoot that pays ? who pays for your 4x4 and house ? 

[Shuggy]

11 hours ago, Chanonry said:

That's just lazy thinking at best but more likely you are guilty of what you accuse them of - Bias.

They have different views from you so you dismiss their position out of hand. Maybe they hold their views after having done their research ?

Who says the Scottish Government is the "most" "anti-gun" administration. Thats a subjective view that you are using to casually dismiss relevant research. 

Try reading it then pick holes in it.

Genuinely independent academic source - what a wonderfully naive concept ...

I think that the RSPB’s views on Grouse and other game shoots are a matter of public record. They are an interesting conservation organisation, as they apparently spend more on fundraising than on their own nature reserves.

The Scottish Government introduced licensing for airguns in 2015 and have a stated policy position of preventing licenses for young people, without any evidence of harm, which I think speaks for itself.

Naive and biased - those are reasonable challenges. You are quite right that we should all be prepared to consider alternative viewpoints. But genuine scientific consensus is achieved through proper peer reviewed research; that is not a naive concept at all. I accept that most on this forum will not have the scientific expertise to properly evaluate these papers. But I think that we should all be skeptical when they are published by an organisation that is clearly run as a lobby group.

[Shuggy]

11 hours ago, Plecotus said:

Nice try indeed.  The two out of three papers you dismiss (I note you make no comment on the third, funny that) contain a great many references supporting their assertions.  The vast majority of those refrences are not to papers published by the RSPB or indeed the Hutton Institue.  You did read them all throroughly.....didn't you?

The RSPB control predators on a number of their reserves where such control has been proven to be of benefit to mostly ground nesting species.  You know that two, I guess?

First, second, third... please read a little more carefully before responding.

[drum]

1 hour ago, Elwood said:

Incorrect I'm afraid.

Most commercial pheasant shoots are run on a shoestring.Making any profit is considered good.That is a fact.

[Moorlander]

2 minutes ago, drum said:

Most commercial pheasant shoots are run on a shoestring.Making any profit is considered good.That is a fact.

Indeed , I`ve helped with costings on a few .

[sam39]

3 hours ago, Moorlander said:

Running a commercial shoot is very expensive and most dont break even , more of a prestige / hobby thing for many owners , those who need to make money have to have big bag days or they wouldnt even cover the beaters fee and lunch let alone the rest or the overheads. 

How many beaters do you have? How much do you pay them....what do you give them for lunch? 200 birds at £45 a bird. I am available next season to come and beat for you.

[drum]

41 minutes ago, sam39 said:

How many beaters do you have? How much do you pay them....what do you give them for lunch? 200 birds at £45 a bird. I am available next season to come and beat for you.

Perhaps you need to factor in keepers wages,housing,4x4s ,corn prices,diesel prices,rent if applicable,cover crops,beaters wages ,well im sure you get the idea.There really isnt a huge profit margin you know.For most shoot owners its a labour of love.They do it because they enjoy it.Theres nothing wrong with doing something because you enjoy it.

[Elwood]

8 hours ago, drum said:

Most commercial pheasant shoots are run on a shoestring.Making any profit is considered good.That is a fact.

Incorrect, or if they are struggling to make a profit they are doing something very very wrong. Trust me I've been doing this for 30 plus years, I know what I'm talking about,

[drum]

1 hour ago, Elwood said:

Incorrect, or if they are struggling to make a profit they are doing something very very wrong. Trust me I've been doing this for 30 plus years, I know what I'm talking about,

Ive been doing this longer.Trust me ,i know what im talking about.

[Moorlander]

9 hours ago, sam39 said:

How many beaters do you have? How much do you pay them....what do you give them for lunch? 200 birds at £45 a bird. I am available next season to come and beat for you.

£30.00 a day and lunch such as pasta / casserole made by the local pub or the keepers wife.

[Moorlander]

8 hours ago, drum said:

Perhaps you need to factor in keepers wages,housing,4x4s ,corn prices,diesel prices,rent if applicable,cover crops,beaters wages ,well im sure you get the idea.There really isnt a huge profit margin you know.For most shoot owners its a labour of love.They do it because they enjoy it.Theres nothing wrong with doing something because you enjoy it.

Exactly that.

[Moorlander]

1 hour ago, Elwood said:

Incorrect, or if they are struggling to make a profit they are doing something very very wrong. Trust me I've been doing this for 30 plus years, I know what I'm talking about,

Youve not been in control or privy to the finances then, just do the figures on the back of a fag packet , you`ll soon see it`s difficult to break even , on a 1000 acre shoot overheads can soon get towards £60k without putting on much of a show.

[drum]

Look,there are commercial pheasant shoots that make a good profit,usually the bigger shoots,shooting big bags.Theres a lot of smaller commercial shoots which do run on tight margins.Without farm payments/subsidies etc they would not exist.Im lucky in that for the last 22 years my employer had no financial worries,as long as the estate didnt run in the red he was happy.I know plenty of owners who run their estate on the same basis.In effect they shoot their personal/family days at no cost,paid for by the let days.

[sam39]

11 minutes ago, Moorlander said:

Exactly that.

I am aware of the costs and the huge amount of work that go into a driven days shooting. I was just commenting on beaters and lunch. If you are just doing something because you "enjoy it"  you do not fall in to the category of commercial shooting I am talking about . Most of us do it because we enjoy it or we do it together as a team of guns and watch our shoot improve and develop

[Malxwal]

Surely "commercial" covers a broad spectrum, from the estate shoots run as described by Drum, to the big money stuff run by specialist companies or the big game rearers. Commercial  would generally refer to where a keeper/keepers aare mployed full time and some days are let ?

[Moorlander]

11 minutes ago, Malxwal said:

Surely "commercial" covers a broad spectrum, from the estate shoots run as described by Drum, to the big money stuff run by specialist companies or the big game rearers. Commercial  would generally refer to where a keeper/keepers aare mployed full time and some days are let ?

Arguably all shoots are commercial if someone has to cough up cash, however much it is , even if all involved work for free/shooting other things such as corn, pens, poults etc have to be paid for , beaters work for a small fee but generally still get paid something so they then become employee`s , ask HMRC.

If keepers are paid then they are an employee and its then a business with taxes and insurances having to be dealt with , as soon as you have paying guns theres liability insurance to consider .

[Elwood]

4 hours ago, Moorlander said:

Youve not been in control or privy to the finances then, just do the figures on the back of a fag packet , you`ll soon see it`s difficult to break even , on a 1000 acre shoot overheads can soon get towards £60k without putting on much of a show.

Again I'm afraid you're wrong, I have had hands on experience of budgets. Most shoot owners who break even or make a small profit is because they have days for themselves , which can massively have a impact on profit margins.

trust me my employer does not run a shoot commercial or otherwise for the fun it, he has in fact told me the shoot pays for his children's private education.

[Moorlander]

3 minutes ago, Elwood said:

Again I'm afraid you're wrong, I have had hands on experience of budgets. Most shoot owners who break even or make a small profit is because they have days for themselves , which can massively have a impact on profit margins.

trust me my employer does not run a shoot commercial or otherwise for the fun it, he has in fact told me the shoot pays for his children's private education.

I`m afraid I dont believe that+ it doesn't make any sense.

[Plecotus]

16 hours ago, Shuggy said:

First, second, third... please read a little more carefully before responding.

The two papers that you mentioned contain HUNDREDS of references to peer reviewed papers, published in a wide variety of journals, most of which are nothing to do with the RSPB, to evidence what the authors of the papers I cited have concluded. 

The third paper was published in the British Ornithologists' Union's journal, Ibis. .  It's a very well respect, international journal in which every paper is thoroughly peer-reviewed.  I believe they are currently No 1 or No. 2 in terms of impact in this discipline, worldwide.   The Editorial board list reads like a  Who's Who of contemporary avian science with experts in the field from all over the globe (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/page/journal/1474919x/homepage/editorialboard.html)   Yes, the research originated from an RSPB team.  That's because the RSPB employ some of the world's finest avian scientists.  All that said, if the research didn't stack up to robust criticism, it would never have made it into print in such a well resepcted journal.  If you think otherwise, my guess is that's because you've never had a paper savaged by a peer review group before.  Nothing scientists like to do more that rip professional colleagues' research apart.  

Please don't talk nonsense about bias.  If you think the science is wrong, offer constructive, evidenced criticism.  Conduct your own studies, publish your own findings in peer-reviewed journals and them you will have some credibility.  All I have read from you on the debate here thus far is your own, personal opinion.  I wonder just how biased THAT is?

[Elwood]

43 minutes ago, Moorlander said:

I`m afraid I dont believe that+ it doesn't make any sense.

 

 

Choose to believe it or not, I have a lifetimes experience of running syndicated and commercial shooting to a pretty high standard and there is money to be made from commercial shooting.

[gazzarM1]

Ian ..was wondering when you were going to wade in....

[Re-Pete]

Plecotus, you simply can't reason with "faith" ...................

Pete

[Plecotus]

40 minutes ago, Re-Pete said:

Plecotus, you simply can't reason with "faith" ...................

Pete

Isn't that the truth, Pete.

Folks who enjoy shooting live quarry need to realise that they they are swimming against an enormous tide of public opinion and, when it comes to certain species and reasons given for shooting them, a lot of science which proves those reasons to be spurious.   If they don't clean up their act, deal with those in their midst who act illegally, deal with the welfare, waste and other issues associated with intensive, high-density game bird shoots and stop sending death threats and general abuse to public figures who are well respected in the wider community, they should not be surprised to find increasingly onerous limitations placed on what they do.

I'm going to leave this thread entirely now.  Nothing else I can add.  It's been interesting to hear people's views, even if I can't always agree with them.  If anyone wants to come and shoot the rats on my smallholding, they would be very welcome!!  Perhaps I need to buy myself a .410?

 

[Bob57]

3 minutes ago, Plecotus said:

Isn't that the truth, Pete.

Folks who enjoy shooting live quarry need to realise that they they are swimming against an enormous tide of public opinion and, when it comes to certain species and reasons given for shooting them, a lot of science which proves those reasons to be spurious.   If they don't clean up their act, deal with those in their midst who act illegally, deal with the welfare, waste and other issues associated with intensive, high-density game bird shoots and stop sending death threats and general abuse to public figures who are well respected in the wider community, they should not be surprised to find increasingly onerous limitations placed on what they do.

I'm going to leave this thread entirely now.  Nothing else I can add.  It's been interesting to hear people's views, even if I can't always agree with them.  If anyone wants to come and shoot the rats on my smallholding, they would be very welcome!!  Perhaps I need to buy myself a .410?

 

Poor rats😂

[Pellet Gun Pete]

Chris Packham on radio 4 last week. He tells about his exploits in his school days, "bird nesting" and TAKING A KESTREL from the nest. 

Then he gets all upset about the kestrels death.

A man driven by his own guilt.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07j4qx6