NRA adding handloading to SCC

[RobinC]

The NRA have now notified members of the requirement to add handloader to Shooters certificates of Competence (SCC's).

The qualification is very much more simplified than first mooted which initially suggested requiring verification of competence by a course,, and its now very simple, and requires no more than signing that you have read, understand, and conform to their handloading code of practice (CoP).

For those who have their SCC annually through a club, must send their signed CoP to their club who must file them, and handloader will then be added to their new SCC starting in January.

For NRA members who have a non expired 4 year SCC through the NRA, again they must sign that they have read, understand and conform to the CoP, and post or email to the NRA membership dept, the NRA have a direct email to handle this handloadedscc@nra.org.uk . They then say they will add, and reissue those members SCC's from Jan to March.

A simple process, we already done ours, completed, scanned, and emailed to the NRA, and I keep the master signed copy with our FAC's

They state it will not apply to those who just use handloaded ammo, but don't load it, it only applies to the loader, not sure I agree?

Its a start, but looks more like a rear end covering exercise, and won't stop the deliberate overload offenders.

Have Fun

Robin

[jcampbellsmith]

The next step will be attending a training course.

Regards

JCS

[furrybean]

So for competitive shooters, we sign that we load within manufacturers limits of charge therefore pressure?

[jcampbellsmith]

13 minutes ago, furrybean said:

So for competitive shooters, we sign that we load within manufacturers limits of charge therefore pressure?

Perhaps, but with chronographs like the Xero becoming available, I expect to see in shoot velocity checks being performed. In an ideal world I would chronograph every shot that I fire.

Regards

JCS 

[furrybean]

That is fine to ensure HME etc are adhered to but not manufacturers guidelines relative to handloading COP

[Popsbengo]

2 hours ago, RobinC said:

.......

They state it will not apply to those who just use handloaded ammo, but don't load it, it only applies to the loader, not sure I agree?

Its a start, but looks more like a rear end covering exercise, and won't stop the deliberate overload offenders.

Have Fun

Robin

Yes, I was surprised by the clause to permit handholds loaded by another.  I wonder why when NRA advice is personal insurance cover may be compromised (Winter 2007 Journal).  Well worth reading, it's on the NRA website.

Otherwise a sensible policy providing club's don't just hand out SCC like sweeties - as I've observed by some.  We ensure a solid paper-trail of proven skill and underpinning knowledge to every SCC issued by our club.

[RobinC]

The code is commonsense for any decent hand loader, the problem is now many don't comply, and many have been loading for years, and have got away with it, (so far!). Signing a CoP will not change them, and compulsory training  won't either, no amount of training will change them, its not they don't know, its that they don't care, and I suspect some clubs will sign them off as a formality, as some do now for SCC's. 

In some forms of NRA match competition shooting, loading considerably over the "Reliable Source" loads is common place, and some by people we all would expect to be responsible NRA members, and competitors. The only way to stop that is for the NRA to declare it reckless, dangerous, and if doing it in competition  consider it cheating, and to test regularly, and ban offenders. Will it happen? Hmmmm......?

I've attached the CoP for non NRA members :-

https://nra-org.uk/wp-content/uploads/nra-code-of-practice-for-handloading-firearms-ammunition.pdf 

Take care, and Have fun.

Robin

 

 

[Re-Pete]

I've heard tales of competition shooters beating their bolts open, and throwing the case away after taking each shot.....

We had the NRA guys visit us on Stix with a Labradar a few years ago, the plan being to spot check MV's in an attempt to address this problem, but for some reason, it never took off.

Pete

[Popsbengo]

28 minutes ago, Re-Pete said:

I've heard tales of competition shooters beating their bolts open, and throwing the case away after taking each shot.....

Competition brings out the best and worst in our natures !   It also seems to override a healthy wish to avoid killing oneself  😟

[Re-Pete]

And as I load for myself and 'er indoors, I was relieved, rather than surprised, to discover that she can still use my reloads.....there are most likely quite a few in our position.

(I don't charge her anything...)

Pete

 

[Dellboy]

On 10/28/2023 at 5:23 PM, RobinC said:

The code is commonsense for any decent hand loader, the problem is now many don't comply, and many have been loading for years, and have got away with it, (so far!). Signing a CoP will not change them, and compulsory training  won't either, no amount of training will change them, its not they don't know, its that they don't care, and I suspect some clubs will sign them off as a formality, as some do now for SCC's. 

In some forms of NRA match competition shooting, loading considerably over the "Reliable Source" loads is common place, and some by people we all would expect to be responsible NRA members, and competitors. The only way to stop that is for the NRA to declare it reckless, dangerous, and if doing it in competition  consider it cheating, and to test regularly, and ban offenders. Will it happen? Hmmmm......?

I've attached the CoP for non NRA members :-

https://nra-org.uk/wp-content/uploads/nra-code-of-practice-for-handloading-firearms-ammunition.pdf 

Take care, and Have fun.

Robin

 

 

i totally agree with your first paragraph , while i was on the comitee of a local club  I tried to introduce a record keeping form for hand loaders and bought in a chronograph for club use . It got done twice when visiting the range  after which they knew better . They will be handing out scc cards with the update as the remaining comitee members hand load .

[Popsbengo]

4 hours ago, Dellboy said:

i totally agree with your first paragraph , while i was on the comitee of a local club  I tried to introduce a record keeping form for hand loaders and bought in a chronograph for club use . It got done twice when visiting the range  after which they knew better . They will be handing out scc cards with the update as the remaining comitee members hand load .

I think we must be lucky at our club,  our members that load for long ranges (+600)  are few in number and sensible.  Interestingly we allow down-loading for cowboy loads and that brings a whole set of different risks such as double charging and flash-over over pressure spikes (more talked of in theory than observed with nitro it must be said).

[RobinC]

Pete, teach her how, and get her to help, in a full year we shoot 1500 rounds, so we both share the work.

For those with unexpired 4 year SCC's direct, as an NRA member, it is a simple matter of completing the form and signing the CoP, and sending it to the NRA.

The wife and I both did ours on the 27th Oct, and today we got new revised SCC's.

As pic, with hand loaded  added in the bottom right corner

Well, that was painless, 

Have Fun

Robin

[Mattnall]

On 10/27/2023 at 10:41 AM, furrybean said:

So for competitive shooters, we sign that we load within manufacturers limits of charge therefore pressure?

No, you are signing to say you have read and understood the CoP and will abide by it.

 

[furrybean]

2 hours ago, Mattnall said:

No, you are signing to say you have read and understood the CoP and will abide by it.

 

But the CoP says manufacturer limits or using your knowledge for pressure signs (paraphased)

Onus is on us if anything happens

[Popsbengo]

2 hours ago, furrybean said:

But the CoP says manufacturer limits or using your knowledge for pressure signs (paraphased)

Onus is on us if anything happens

Well yes it is, who else is responsible?   The point is that as long as due care and process is followed, insurance will be payable (third party risk unless personally insured)

[Mattnall]

5 hours ago, furrybean said:

But the CoP says manufacturer limits or using your knowledge for pressure signs (paraphased)

Onus is on us if anything happens

You missed off the "or using your knowledge" bit from your post originally.
The form you sign states you have read and understood the CoP and will abide by it. The CoP can and no doubt will change over time.

The onus is on us at all times, even with the other SCC categories.

[RobinC]

I suggest any one hand loading or even just using hand loaded ammo they have not loaded, read very carefully the code of practice, and sign it, and have it added to their SCC. 

Its a common sense document.

The General Principles section is quite comprehensive, and should be read carefully, its not stupidly over onerous, and if (IF!) complied with, should end the crazy loads used by some allegedly reputable NRA members and shooters.

Personally I think many will continue until the day they are checked with out advance warning!

As for the reference in the NRA Hand loading news, that those that don't load, but do use hand loads from others don't need to sign or have it added on their SCC, it is contrary to the signing section of the CoP, which clearly refers to those that USE hand loaded ammunition requiring this on their SCC, which correctly also  then puts the onus on the user to be sure that the source is reputable.

Have Fun

Robin

 

[furrybean]

On 11/16/2023 at 2:01 PM, Popsbengo said:

Well yes it is, who else is responsible?   The point is that as long as due care and process is followed, insurance will be payable (third party risk unless personally insured)

Touch and youre right

I just hope its not a get out clause if the that which promotes growth and vigour hits the fan and there is an issue and we need the insurance then out technical experience is robust enough to ensure we comply 

[Popsbengo]

9 hours ago, furrybean said:

Touch and youre right

I just hope its not a get out clause if the that which promotes growth and vigour hits the fan and there is an issue and we need the insurance then out technical experience is robust enough to ensure we comply 

It's never a simple ok/not ok with insurance.  Ultimately if the ship that hit the fan was so serious then the courts will be making judgements, that's when having training and records will help.  Also, I think you will agree, that if the correct processes are worked to with skill and diligence then it's highly unlikely one will ever need to trouble the courts.  As a club secretary I do my best to ensure we don't have stupid dicks reloading dangerously,  thereby complying with our insurers expectations  - the fact that, should something go wrong, it could suggest our club has less than perfect processes but, importantly,  that we were not negligent in ignoring the training requirements.  We can do no more as a volunteer run organisation.

[Montey]

I’ve just read the declaration and signed it as I understand it the two problems were caused by no powder in the case followed by a shot taken in a blocked?

[RobinC]

On 11/21/2023 at 10:45 PM, Montey said:

I’ve just read the declaration and signed it as I understand it the two problems were caused by no powder in the case followed by a shot taken in a blocked?

I don't quite understand this post? Are you asking how this should be dealt with?

Yes, the bullet leaving the case by the primer on an empty round has happened, usually a mistake by a hand loader ( no one is perfect!) and exceptionally rarely, even with factory rounds.

Yes, if there is no powder in a case, in some cases the primer has enough charge to exit the bullet from the case, and still remain in the barrel. 

There are simple procedures that should be followed in such an incident.

A competent shooter, and a competent RO should be aware that this can happen. I have been present as an RO when this happened, and it was safely resolved by checking, and clearing the barrel before the shooter was permitted to continue.

The shooter if holding an SCC should be competent enough to realize that even if they are aware that the primer has gone off,  that the recoil was not apparent, and that no shot had reached the target, and If when the case was ejected there was no bullet,  a competent shooter, and a competent RO who was made aware of the situation as they should have been in an RO'ed shoot, would inspect and check the barrel before continuing. 

If the shooter has not realized the primer has fired, they should follow the failed round procedure, i.e notify the RO, wait 30 seconds and remove the round, again an SCC competent shooter and a competent RO would check the barrel if there was no bullet in the case.

A shooter shooting alone (such as is permitted at Bisley) should be competent enough to follow the same procedures.

Even a good level shooter who has an unexplained "No Score" will immediately check that the barrel is clear.

To fire another shot onto the blocked barrel is simply gross negligence.

Have Fun

Robin

 

[Montey]

Ok I’m not asking how this should be delt with I’m confused as to why there’s so much concern regarding max loads (if the max load doesn’t exceed a loading manual) when the two accidents for want of a better term were caused by loads without powder.

I will add I hope my post comes across in a spirit of sensible debate.

[Richiew]

Some of my favourite loads for 308 cal are nearly 2 grain s over what hornady specifies for their 155 ELD, these loads were worked up in small increments and have no pressure signs and are not compressed. 
Where will I stand if some jobsworth comes along and says Your using too much!!!!

Thinking this will be our main problem. We used to have to submit our load data at eskdalemuir years back. 
If going by the speed s on factory ammo ie 2660 fps for a Berger 185 us reloaders Will definitely be over the max compared to the manual’s. 
 

cheers

[Popsbengo]

5 hours ago, Montey said:

Ok I’m not asking how this should be delt with I’m confused as to why there’s so much concern regarding max loads (if the max load doesn’t exceed a loading manual) when the two accidents for want of a better term were caused by loads without powder.

I will add I hope my post comes across in a spirit of sensible debate.

Where have you had this idea from that it's because of two accidents due to no powder?  It's my understanding that there's been quite a number of issues over the years, on and off Bisley.

One thing I would criticise NRA over is the lack of feedback to the shooting community following investigations.  In the mountaineering world (where deaths are not unknown) when an accident is investigated (by experts in their field) there's a report published for general learning.