The Spectator backs Brexit.

[JBirchall]

Nearly a week until D Day and came across this today:-

 

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/world-spectator-backs-brexit/

[brown dog]

Awesome.

[les]

Let's hope they're right.

[Brillo]

And boy, do we need a Maggie now. Our PM is a waste of space and Ossie even more so. To think I helped put them in power. I'll never forgive myself.

[brown dog]

Let's hope they're right.

 

 

Not much wrong with this as a summary:

 

[geek]

And boy, do we need a Maggie now. Our PM is a waste of space and Ossie even more so. To think I helped put them in power. I'll never forgive myself.

 

 

I do agree with you. I too voted for the jellyfish (spineless!), but what other choices are there.... none. Never voted for any of the other lot in my life.

[gbal]

The EU vote isn't,of course,about Cameron or any political party (UKIP excepted).

 

The Spectator is at least more coherent than some other sources. Balanced out of course by most of the informed press-Economist is the clearest.

There is still a woeful misrepresentation of actual facts/information-and much is simply wrong.

 

If you want a readable coherent commentary,try 'The Conversation" -free on line-it has daily-it seems- EU disciussions that are not biased and largely correct in statistics etc,where used.

It also has informative short articles eg on the latest US shootings and the Euro football events (not the games on the turf!);or the trauma that Trumpcan cause.

 

There are plenty other sources-and some that don't just cheat (as does Trump,but alas,here too) by using 'good' words but failing to use them scrupulously.

JUst what 'law' has been imposed on UK by unelected EU (proposals from essentially the EU 'bureaucrats'-we call them civil servants here -yes ,minister ,we do-) are voted by a democratically (PR no less) parliament of MEPs,and also has to be passed by the (nominated,one per country) representatives-so more 'democratic' than the Lords!

I found two issues-the 'bananas' nonsense-the directive was that 'deformed' bananas were not to be sold (which is exactly what all the major fruit sellers in the UK do anyhow-fruit is blemish free for presentational reasons) -can'r see my way of life threatened by 'Brussels there. Second-that we introduce some reforms into our prisons-to reduce recidivism (broadly,prisoners coming out even more likely to commit more act against society)-UK prisons have one of th worst records in comparable European countries. Sometimes 'Brussels' has good ideas. (UK Prison minister is Gove,seems quite a nice man,not a stripey deckchair-but what has he done to improve our societies problem....?)

'Democracy' and 'sovereignty' are goodies-but is the UK either-almost all our laws are passed by what for the majority of the voters-who bother-are 'the other lot'-it's rare for a party to get 60% vote-most of the time we are moaning-perhaps rightly-about what the Government are proposing/doing. OK,they can be changed every five years if they are continuously naughty enough-but so can the MEPs etc. (and there is no reason at allto think EU legislation has overall,been any worse-and in many cases better than UK laws-one reason eg the Trades Unions are for staying in,but the point is wider.

Many on both sides,think that immigratuion needs some control-mainly fitting immigrants to jobs- but in/out of the EU does not give solutions to that. If 'out' there will be no fence at Calais-but there remains a totally open border into the UK from Eire ( Nigel would not comment on this wide open back door-but it makes a mockery of 'control' (and if Scotland quits the 'United States Of Britain' - are we really going to rebuild Hadrians Wall? (Hadn't though of UK as a 'federal united states' ...well,it is ,and works rather well....despite the North/South divide,or 'Westminster" bias.....and continuous requests for more 'democracy' and less Westminster 'interference'- plus ca change,plus c'est la meme chose....EU in/out does not fix that.....the issue is more endemic (ie some always feel a bit agrieved,sometimes rightly-the rules get improved,from within-seldom overnight though.)

It would be naughty to say 'Trump' is democratic-but he is-the concept is sound,but not any guarantee when other factorsare ignored. Trump gets support from disenchanted blue collar workers,but Trump's rhetoric is inchoherent at any thougtful level,and simply not doable (Hadrians Wall)-let alone any wishy wshy moral etc issues. Brexit is not Trump.

Brexit support is demographic- low income,traditional working(or not) class,low education and old, predict 'out'. There are concernsto be addressed,but worsened economy isn't going to help. UK will probably return to reasonable economic position out of EU,in somewher between 4-10 yeas-but it is very unlikely indeed to be better off than now. We (well you) will have to run pretty hard to stay where we are.

That is what almost every informed expert/involved has said,with a very very few exceptions (from producers who do not sell in EU-their position is understandable,but untenablei general).

The 80% of our GNP (or thereabouts) that comes from 'financial services'-eg insurance,it's not all fat cat bankers-is the real base for contemporary Britain,though the 20% productive industry matters too-and almost all these want to stay in....

There are no great empire powers left,but massive populaton markets/countries-USA,China,and the EU,where sheer population size matters (India up and coming). Britain has a recognised and deserved place in world politics etc. Going alone is unlikely to maintain it. Personal attacks on individual politicians are irrelevant- leadership helps,but is no substitute for essentially being right,and rspected at the power table. Non UK advocates of 'Brexit" are Putin and Trump- quite a minority,really.

 

Rule one,and it is the ONLY rule, in political democracies-in such matters, has always been.....

 

BE AT THE TABLE

 

That is what centuries of world history tell us.

 

Make an informed decision,based on a well considered balance,not rhetoric. Or vote 'Trump' !! :-)

 

GB

[phoenix]

The EU vote isn't,of course,about Cameron or any political party (UKIP excepted).

 

The Spectator is at least more coherent than some other sources. Balanced out of course by most of the informed press-Economist is the clearest.

There is still a woeful misrepresentation of actual facts/information-and much is simply wrong.

 

If you want a readable coherent commentary,try 'The Conversation" -free on line-it has daily-it seems- EU disciussions that are not biased and largely correct in statistics etc,where used.

It also has informative short articles eg on the latest US shootings and the Euro football events (not the games on the turf!);or the trauma that Trumpcan cause.

 

There are plenty other sources-and some that don't just cheat (as does Trump,but alas,here too) by using 'good' words but failing to use them scrupulously.

JUst what 'law' has been imposed on UK by unelected EU (proposals from essentially the EU 'bureaucrats'-we call them civil servants here -yes ,minister ,we do-) are voted by a democratically (PR no less) parliament of MEPs,and also has to be passed by the (nominated,one per country) representatives-so more 'democratic' than the Lords!

I found two issues-the 'bananas' nonsense-the directive was that 'deformed' bananas were not to be sold (which is exactly what all the major fruit sellers in the UK do anyhow-fruit is blemish free for presentational reasons) -can'r see my way of life threatened by 'Brussels there. Second-that we introduce some reforms into our prisons-to reduce recidivism (broadly,prisoners coming out even more likely to commit more act against society)-UK prisons have one of th worst records in comparable European countries. Sometimes 'Brussels' has good ideas. (UK Prison minister is Gove,seems quite a nice man,not a stripey deckchair-but what has he done to improve our societies problem....?)

'Democracy' and 'sovereignty' are goodies-but is the UK either-almost all our laws are passed by what for the majority of the voters-who bother-are 'the other lot'-it's rare for a party to get 60% vote-most of the time we are moaning-perhaps rightly-about what the Government are proposing/doing. OK,they can be changed every five years if they are continuously naughty enough-but so can the MEPs etc. (and there is no reason at allto think EU legislation has overall,been any worse-and in many cases better than UK laws-one reason eg the Trades Unions are for staying in,but the point is wider.

Many on both sides,think that immigratuion needs some control-mainly fitting immigrants to jobs- but in/out of the EU does not give solutions to that. If 'out' there will be no fence at Calais-but there remains a totally open border into the UK from Eire ( Nigel would not comment on this wide open back door-but it makes a mockery of 'control' (and if Scotland quits the 'United States Of Britain' - are we really going to rebuild Hadrians Wall? (Hadn't though of UK as a 'federal united states' ...well,it is ,and works rather well....despite the North/South divide,or 'Westminster" bias.....and continuous requests for more 'democracy' and less Westminster 'interference'- plus ca change,plus c'est la meme chose....EU in/out does not fix that.....the issue is more endemic (ie some always feel a bit agrieved,sometimes rightly-the rules get improved,from within-seldom overnight though.)

It would be naughty to say 'Trump' is democratic-but he is-the concept is sound,but not any guarantee when other factorsare ignored. Trump gets support from disenchanted blue collar workers,but Trump's rhetoric is inchoherent at any thougtful level,and simply not doable (Hadrians Wall)-let alone any wishy wshy moral etc issues. Brexit is not Trump.

Brexit support is demographic- low income,traditional working(or not) class,low education and old, predict 'out'. There are concernsto be addressed,but worsened economy isn't going to help. UK will probably return to reasonable economic position out of EU,in somewher between 4-10 yeas-but it is very unlikely indeed to be better off than now. We (well you) will have to run pretty hard to stay where we are.

That is what almost every informed expert/involved has said,with a very very few exceptions (from producers who do not sell in EU-their position is understandable,but untenablei general).

The 80% of our GNP (or thereabouts) that comes from 'financial services'-eg insurance,it's not all fat cat bankers-is the real base for contemporary Britain,though the 20% productive industry matters too-and almost all these want to stay in....

There are no great empire powers left,but massive populaton markets/countries-USA,China,and the EU,where sheer population size matters (India up and coming). Britain has a recognised and deserved place in world politics etc. Going alone is unlikely to maintain it. Personal attacks on individual politicians are irrelevant- leadership helps,but is no substitute for essentially being right,and rspected at the power table. Non UK advocates of 'Brexit" are Putin and Trump- quite a minority,really.

 

Rule one,and it is the ONLY rule, in political democracies-in such matters, has always been.....

 

BE AT THE TABLE

 

That is what centuries of world history tell us.

 

Make an informed decision,based on a well considered balance,not rhetoric. Or vote 'Trump' !! :-)

 

GB

 

 

Well said sir!!!

I fully agree, and would add that IMHO, the Nationalist politicians in Scotland and the Brexit supporting politicians in the rest of the UK are somewhat motivated by their dislike of being told what to do by other people.

The Scottish Nationalists hate being told what to do by Westminster and the Little Englander (mainly) conservative politicians hate being told what to do by "Johnny Foreigner" in Brussels and Strasbourg.

These politicians, having climbed the greasy pole of politics to get to a position where they have some power and authority really don't like the thought of other politicians in other parliaments having more power and authority than them, so they want to divorce themselves from those other parliaments.

The consequences of those potential divorces on ordinary folk like us does not enter into their calculations - it's all about their power and authority.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

[bowji john]

For me the bottom line is that the EU was created, sold and maintained through lies and miss information - though that hardly makes it unique in our history(s)

 

However

 

It dare not allow democracy into the equation for fear of rejection

 

Its underpinning philosophy is the uniting of disparate cultures into an eco political whole - no matter whether it is in the interests (either short term or long term) of the peoples of those nations (or indeed even work on a practical level).

 

We are being led into a post democratic era run by multinationals that have modeled themselves on the barons of old

 

it is easier to impose rule on a collective than a wide range of independent cultures

 

One chance and one chance only to throw a spanner into their wheels

 

The only thing I agree with that the the IN campaign has claimed is that the ''wheels of the entire economic system might well come off as a result of us leaving''

 

However that economic system (thanks to the crooks running the banks) is a busted flush anyway - it is just that everyone is studiously ignoring the fact that there is still about $ 50 Trillion of ' invented money' floating around a failed system

[brown dog]

The first rule of democracy is decidedly not 'be at the table', it's have a democratic process.

 

The vote here is whether to continue, and further subjugate, the UK's leadership in its entirety to an unelected and unaccountable Brussels Junta/Politburo, or whether to get democracy back.

How or why anyone would contend that perpetuating and enhancing the subjugation is a step towards 'democracy'is ludicrous.

 

Uniquely, here, we're being given a democratic chance to step out from under the Junta/Politburo. Normally, such an opportunity involves mass uprisings or coups.

We vote away our democratic rights with a 'stay' - and we'll never have another opportunity - an unaccountable Brussels Junta will never ask again.

 

[DaveT]

Double-Ditto all BDs comments....I am voting out out!

[baldie]

Got to agree Matt.

 

When ever anyone asks my opinion, I say this.

 

Leave, and sort out the mess.

 

Stay, and be prepared to be dry bummed big style. Once Brussels know the British people voted to stay, the 'special deals " and "negotiations" will be a thing of the past.

 

We will do exactly as we are told, when we are told.

[gbal]

Matt, surely you not joined those of the pejorative words,unsupported /often unsupportable ignoring of the evidence and indeed facts,and where consciously done,even upsetting the Archbishop/ (I've never voted for any of the political spokespersons,and am an atheist,but perhaps not too bad at spotting non - sense when it is peddled as good reason.

 

I explicitly said 'in ioplitical democracies',the rule is be "be there'-ie democracies exist in the major EU members,including UK,and it's all negotiated from there (and some does need negotiating-just as no one country is perfect either-surely including the UK).

The K does quite well in negotioations (internationally) but that does not guarantee we get 100% of what some of the UK wants....and maybe it shouldn't-we are not always 100% correct-no-one is.

 

"Junta....slavery...." you cannot be serious,Matt-but let's not jump into that morrasse of nonsense.

 

Is anyone going to dismiss the "MEP s are an elected parliament,pretty much like the House of Commons,except they are closer by far to a 'Proportional Representative" parliament,with members being in proportion to populations.MEP decisions are binding,just as House of Commons. (and the counccil of ministers -though selectedd by governments- do not just rubber stamp 'bureaucrats'-who are notalways wrong,anyhow-much EU legislation is progressive and beneficial and stands comparison with the UK (which has made some boo boos..among variuos demographs here-Pol Tax,Bedroom Tax,Union leislation (for/against)....etc etc...)

 

No system so far invented is perfect.The criterion is,how good is the status quo compared to alternatives....the answer varies a bit with the issue,but the massive consensus from almost every source giving an opinion is that econamoically,"IN"is best,and "out" is short term risky,long term barely equal.

Immigration-clearly an issue-but ''out" cannot give any reason to have any confidence at all that there would be much change-and won't even comment on the Ireland open back door.

Would the 'refugee ' issue have been better handled by Independent European countries-or woud they have simply said it isn't their individual problem....unless it'ss i their back yard....on balance,the mess would have been much worse,with no prospect of improvement...which we now have..negotiated.

 

The common recurrent theme of "Brexit" is something isn't perfect,so let's leave,and it will be all right...

... but probe a little,and it's reduced to'we will be great' etc....maybe,but not better,and wemay well damage European unity -you know Europe,it's where the big wars used to start when there was no political or indeed any co-operation.

 

"baby and bathwater' is the simple response to that.We get a great deal from the EU,at the basic but neccessary economic level,and the opportunity to do more. If almost all the rest of the world -and virtually every informed organisation within UK-advises stay in,for all sorts of reasons,with only a couple of the real dodgy nasties going 'Brexit'........well,god help us,if Nigel is more persuasive than that lot. Maybe he has-see the Archbishop for his condemnation of the use of unjustifiable fear,and pandering to prejudice.

 

" Lead not leave" ....entirely consistent with democracy,deceny,justice and much that the UK champions,as does Europe. The threats to our way of life,and an improving one for all-much needed by some-lie elsewhere.

We do not,either,need EU approval to have another referendum (as Scotland may well show,if they wish to remain in EU). Switzerland has referenda rather often.The UK could leave the EU at any time. It might not get back in so easily-that is the decision of all the other members-actually every single one would have a veto vote,so we'd not be likely to get a prodigal's return welcome.Who knows-a very risky plan B !!

 

Whatever the frustrations of some,and they are real and understandable,abandoning the EU does not provide solutions. 'Apple pie and motherhood' are decent US positives-Trump won't do anything much for pies,and is an anti feminine mysogenist of the rather nasty kind.

 

Surely the UK( pretty close to disintegration itself last year) won't be conned into accepting a similar non link between desireable words and a policy that has little or nothing to do with achieving them,contrasted to a system that is making progress-very real progress by effective co-operation (despite the selfish aspects of 'sovereignty'-which all the members suffer from sometimes. They deal with it.

Surely ,so can Great Britain (little england clearly can't,anymore than little scotland or little anywhere can).

 

GB

[MJR]

I echo BD's comments. Many wars have been fought and lives lost to maintain our freedom and democracy, a democracy we have seen eroded and if we stay in the EU will see removed altogether.

The only sensible way forward is vote leave and regain control of OUR country and OUR destiny.

[MJR]

Gbal, despite your protracted verbage you conveniently ignore the fact that we have sat at the table for the last 43 years, we have lobbied, vito, debated, begged and pleaded with the EU and for what?

To lead us to a position whereby, in simple terms, we pay more in than we get out, we have no control over EU migration and we have all but the tiniest thread of sovereignty left.

As Baldie puts it, its time for out and sort the mess out.

[gbal]

MIke,more emotive words-no reasoned discussion.

 

Many-most-other EU member countries were involved in the two world wars,in Europe,and many made at least equal sacrifices, some more -democracy and fredom are not strange concepts to them.

 

Why are they in the EU......and among the most pro EU europeans? They surely were there,did that,and now have the t-shirt-the blue one with the stars.

 

Why would they do that- all of them?

 

Again,the labels are waved about,but the decisions of almost all the other countries involved simply go opposite to Brexit......there is no connection....or if there is,it is the opposite to Brexit's rhetoric.

 

GB

[gbal]

Some ideas need a bit of clarity of exposition. BUt it can be done by simplifying too:

 

You give absolutely no examples.

Cameron did neotiate some concessions-not everything but he had only weeks to do it. Plenty in UK have had just a disappointing experience of UK government-ask a narrow minority in Scotland.

Does not make either side right-negotiation is getting the best deal all round.when there are some differnces-always are-world isn't hunky dory.

We do have a veto now on some issues,as do other member states-eg on new applicants-one blackball and out-we did not before-if a veto exists and is used,that is it.We didn't veto-we might have opposed-heck,that's what Labour and Conservatives do all the time,with others coming in too-you don't get what you want in UK politics without persuasion.

The UK is somply not somewhere where everyone gets their own way-andprobably should not be.

Some think they get bullied,perhaps. Well,if so they get a better case made...or lose out again.

 

Again,it's not a different system-there is no more uniformity in UK than between EU members-or less.

 

Why not retain the advantages,and improve from within -it does happen (cameron got some concessions,and maybe other ideas were 'optimistic'-the experience of virtually ever political campaigner in UK especially in the very short term. (even Maggie got whacked back-or paid a very high price etc).

 

One thing everuone accepts-Farage etc not publically-is that the net contribution from UK is nothing like the much given figure-nor does UK pay more than all other countries-but we do contribute-it is virtually impossible to sort out all the money coming back-only yesterday major University leaders were giving a multi Billion figure for research money,and pointing out all the EU (lt alone foreign) student fees were not really accounted.Ditto lots of real,but difficult to put a true figure on-some jobs eg.....

I accept there is a 'club memberchip '; fee-as in most clubs. Norway,Switzerland,Canada all pay pretty similar 'fees' but not to be members-just to trade..on EU terms (accepting free movement etc).

 

It's complicated,of course,so I'd better not go on....None of Norway,Swiss,Canadians think they have a better deal than being full members.They don't!

 

Brexit have absolutely no plans for how the UK mess-if there is one-are to be solved when out-that again is the point-there are issues,but just a tractable within,with advantages.

 

I have a cartoon: imagine an old guy holding a sign saying "careful,dangerous cliffs ahead" and a bunch of

lemmings (looking remarkable Boris Farage like) rushing past shouting "Scare monger"

 

Sometimes, everyone really in the know turns out to be right.

 

Brexit have no coherent policy proposals for what they distort int issues.

 

The EU issues are sortable from within-that's what other member states think,and they want the UK to help take a lead on it.As does most of the civilised world,that has given an opinion.

 

GB

[brown dog]

'Sortable from within' - well, Cameron managed chuff all with his negotiations, and Remain will weaken our position yet further.

 

We'll get what we vote for:

 

After the referendum:

 

The European Commission had held an especially convivial meeting on the morning of 24 June – Jean-Claude Juncker had insisted on champagne, though it was only nine in the morning – to celebrate Britain’s “reaffirmation of her European vocation”.

Angela Merkel gave a delighted speech, saying that, despite all the protests and complaints, it was now clear that the majority of the British people favoured deeper integration.

 

After all, she said, the scheme had been clearly laid out before the referendum. The European Commission had publicly stated that it wanted economic, political and military amalgamation. She herself had very clearly stated her support for a federal Europe, in which the European Parliament became the chief legislative body and the national ministers served as a kind of Senate or Bundesrat representing the nation states.

 

And the British people, knowing all this, had voted to remain involved.

 

Within days, the various pieces of contentious legislation that had been put into temporary storage in the run-up to the vote were brought forth: restrictions on London’s financial services; the ban on high-power electrical appliances; the Ports Services Directive, which did huge damage to Britain’s commercial ports and had been vainly opposed by every port operator, every trade union and every British MEP; the mid-term budget hike.

 

British ministers complained half-heartedly about some of these measures, but their protests had a perfunctory quality. After all, as the President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, triumphantly put it:

 

“This is what you voted for. You belong to Europe.”

[Finman]

The quality and arguments of the Brexit campaign were summarised today at Bristall...RIP Jo Cox...

[brown dog]

The quality and arguments of the Brexit campaign were summarised today at Bristall...RIP Jo Cox...

 

 

That is truly offensive.

 

You need to have a long hard look in the mirror if you seek to so cheaply attempt to profit from that lady's death.

 

Disgraceful.

[Finman]

As European working in the UK for 25 years, I've heard a lot of offensive bollooqs for months now...

[brown dog]

As European working in the UK for 25 years, I've heard a lot of offensive bollooqs for months now...

 

And that makes your comment OK?

 

Utterly disgraceful. Hang your head in utter shame.

[Finman]

I feel no shame whatsoever pointing out that the Brexit campaign serves no other purpose than to polarise using sensationalist statements which are false in the main, or a version of the truth. It is these statements which culminated to the sentiment leading to the unfortunate events witnessed today. And it is even sadder to think that he would also vote had it not been for his reproachful actions...

[ds1]

It is a point of principles for me, sovereignty and democracy. My life would be easier "in" as an ex-pat living in Europe , but my postal vote goes "leave".

George..... I am still having a problem feeling the "love" for the Eu Commission who are "Insisting" on draconian Firearms legislation even though the country where I live voted in the house of commons and Lords to reject the Eu proposal....but we will be screwed with sanctions so yes I am having a problem seeing the democracy in that, or as Baldie so eloquently put it we are getting dry bummed in the Eu, without the courtesy of a reach around I might add.

[MrCetrizine]

I'm not easily offended but I find your linking of people who want a return of proper democracy to this country with a cowardly vicious murderer to be reprehensible.