Butch's bore shine cleaner and polish.

[johnnyb0_1]

Hi all, I decided to try these and they arrived today. My cleaning regime to date has been:

1. Phosphor bronze brush x 5 time to remove loose crud.

2. Wet patch with Wipe out patch out accelerator.

3. Nylon brush soaked in wipe out patch out tactical cleaner.

4. VLD felts soaked in WOPO TAC. Cleaner until no signs of copper or carbon.

Dry felt bore until no signs of cleaner.

 

My question is, that tonight after using Butch's bore cleaner the patch came out absolutely covered in crap. I was astounded by the dirt on the patch. I followed the instructions to the letter and it took about 10 dry patches to get no signs of either bore shine or carbon.

 

Anyone else use this? Any fine tuning tips? Is it too harsh on the bore?

The rifle had been cleaned using the WOPO process as above after use, foxing on Wednesday night.

I realise the paste is abrasive but the crud it removed was a browny colour so I assuming (rightly or wrongly) that this was carbon. BTW, the barrel is stainless.

 

Any thoughts or advice welcomed.

 

Cheers guys.

[The Gun Pimp]

Most benchrest shooters use Butch's to remove powder fouling. It also contains ammonia so will bring out a little copper - but there are much better dedicated copper solvents.

[johnnyb0_1]

Hi GP. I think the WOPO is great at removing copper. You can really see the blue colour in the felts/ patches. However the Butch's seems to do a lot more in relation to powder fouling. Looks like I'll be amending my cleaning regime. If the bench rest boys (and girls, to be PC correct, lol), are using it, it would seem that it won't harm the barrel.

 

Isn't every day a school day!

 

Thanks. JP.

[mikeroz]

I've used BBS for approximately 15 years after an accuracy issue. So I took a visit to a bench rest gunsmith and an inspection with a bore scope resulted in me getting a lecture in barrel care. I got him to clean the gun which took an age; somewhere between 30 minute & an hour and I've followed his advice ever since. So I now clean solely with BBS, no brushing whatsoever, just a proshot jag and patch. I clean after every outing irrespective of whether only one shot or 20 or more. It takes about 10 patches to get barrel clean. I then finish off with a patch with kroll on it to protect.

Never had accuracy problems since, so it works for me. I do have some Sweets 762 which I probably use once every 2 or 3 years, but that's about it.

[sauer]

I used buchs bore shine

 

Would anyone recommend a dedicated copper remover then ?

 

paul

[Re-Pete]

For copper removal, try Robla Solo-Mil. Best results are obtained by scrubbing vigorously with a bronze brush wetted in the cleaner, then plugging the muzzle, filling the bore (I use a 25ml hypo), and letting it stand overnight.

You will be amazed at what comes out of a supposedly clean bore.......................#

 

H/man

 

ps It's around a fiver for 100mls https://www.ballistolstore.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=141

[MrCetrizine]

I was told that you don't want to remove all copper from the bore. You just want to remove what is in the lands and grooves not what has settled into the micro scratches and fractures of the bore. This is so you don't need fouling shots.

 

I use KG1 for carbon, KG12 for copper and finally KG2 to polish as these were designed to do exactly that.

[gunner]

I've used BBS for approximately 15 years after an accuracy issue. So I took a visit to a bench rest gunsmith and an inspection with a bore scope resulted in me getting a lecture in barrel care. I got him to clean the gun which took an age; somewhere between 30 minute & an hour and I've followed his advice ever since. So I now clean solely with BBS, no brushing whatsoever, just a proshot jag and patch. I clean after every outing irrespective of whether only one shot or 20 or more. It takes about 10 patches to get barrel clean. I then finish off with a patch with kroll on it to protect.

Never had accuracy problems since, so it works for me. I do have some Sweets 762 which I probably use once every 2 or 3 years, but that's about it.

Plus1 like mikeroz , use bbs , its done in about 8 patches , then 1 with oil then 2x dry to soak up the excess , 1 fouler then crack on normally . Atb

[Re-Pete]

I think fouling consists of microscopic alternate layers of copper and carbon with the heaviest deposits around the throat area.

An aggressive cleaner like Robla appears to soak through the carbon and remove the underlying copper, thereby "floating" the carbon off.

I first tried it on a Swing 308 which appeared through a borescope to be clean and shiny, but to have a badly worn bore. Very shallow grooves and just a suggestion of rifling. Plus it was shooting like a dog.

The puzzling part was that MV's were quite a bit higher than expected, which might indicate a tight bore, so I soaked it in Robla for 24hrs, drained it and pushed a patch through.

The patch was preceded by a six inch long black worm as it exited the barrel. The patch itself was dark blue. I patched it with a damp (in water) one a couple more times, then with dry patches, and finally with a patch soaked in "3 in 1 high performance lube with PTFE"

The first outing showed the MV's to be as expected and the groups had tightened right up, so well worth trying before deciding to re-barrel...........

Robla is highly ammoniacal, but if used according to the instructions, (and for added peace of mind, patched through with a couple of water wet patches before finally drying), it's perfectly safe for stainless and moly steel.

 

H/man

[The Gun Pimp]

I was told that you don't want to remove all copper from the bore. You just want to remove what is in the lands and grooves not what has settled into the micro scratches and fractures of the bore. This is so you don't need fouling shots.

 

I use KG1 for carbon, KG12 for copper and finally KG2 to polish as these were designed to do exactly that.

By who - may I ask?

[johnnyb0_1]

Thanks guys, as they say, "Every days a school day". J.

[MrCetrizine]

By who - may I ask?

 

The ex-pat former US marine armourer who now works as range officer and in house RFD at my club.

[gbal]

The military (have to) take a more pragmatic approach to cleaning (and to absolute accuracy) than do the more extreme seekers of precision.

The idea seems to be that micro flaws in the barrel (they have to be in 'the lands and grooves'-unless it's the throat)-can be 'filled in' by copper deposits and make then a much smoother barrel,with less rogh snags for fouling etc. Top barrels probably just have much fewer rough spots,and get hand lapped to remove them.

Whatever the merits of this 'theory' it does leave a bit of a conundrum for the rifle cleaner-how can you possibly know when you have removed extra copper,and just honed down to the smooth,but micro crack filled,barrel? Especially with a chemical cleaner,which will not respect any imagined smooth barrel with pot holes filled in-it will go for any copper-so 'don't clean all the copper out,leave a bit' is un-doable with any consistency.

The idea seems to say,don't get all copper out-some is helpful.But we cannot know which/quite how much is helpful,so as a guide to cleaning ....it's at best....err...pragmatic (sort of works to loose criteria-which may be adequate for the application,eg government work). Shooters with intrinsically better finished barrels will probably see cleaning a bit differently-they have already from the start an excellent barrel,not one with micro flaws that need filling in.Factory barrels may not.

I just don''t see how the cleaner can decide that small traces of copper are actually from the pot hole filling,and therfore stop dissolving that copper filling. But in this context (factory/hunting rifles) it probably doesn't matter! Many shoot (coppered) rifles for years reasonably happily -even if some small decrement in absolute performance was there.If your absolute is measured in 1/2 inches,perfection in pot hole filling is not going to make a marked improvement. If your ex armourers advice is that removing most of the copper wil help,then OK,but precision to a few microns in selected 'pot holes' is not attainable,is it? For others with better barrels,and higher precision performance standards,removing all the copper will pay dividends ( I suspect some of this,and much else at extremes, both ways, is 'psychological',for all save the ultimate shooters). 'Confidence' even slightly misplaced,is a positive,but so is a perfect barrel.

gbal

[dave thorniley]

if you asked a thousand shooters how they clean their rifles a thousand shooters would tell you different ways to clean their rifes

[The Gun Pimp]

They would Dave - but that doesn't mean they are all cleaning them properly.

 

I went to my first benchrest World Championships in Italy in 1999 and watching the Yanks clean their barrels - I realised I'd never cleaned a barrel properly!

 

Until you get a borescope - how do you know?

[Re-Pete]

+1 on getting a borescope................it will frighten the life out of you.

 

H/man

[baldie]

When the barrel is clean, and by that I mean all copper and carbon removed....you have a datum line to work from. Just removing a bit is a guess.

 

Knowing your barrel is clean and , by experience, where the clean cold shot will go , is a massive mental boost.

 

I have a shelf in the garage which must have 20 different products on it. It was a quest i set about years ago. I finally settled on two products, and they are all I sell in the shop.

 

KG1 carbon remover [ dont rate the copper remover at all ]

 

Sweets 7.62

 

If I had a quid for every supposedly "clean" barrel that the sweets has turned purple in the shop, I would be considerably richer.

[terryh]

Always an interesting one this, I'm almost tempted to put it into the 'don't discuss politics or religion' sector of life

 

These are just my personal views/comments

 

A bore scope is a good start to see what's going on generally, I was surprised when I purchased one and actually looked at the state of the nation! But up until that point I'd been happily cleaning my rifles and getting acceptable, for me results, in various competitions - so is ignorance bliss?

 

Many cleaning products, if it works for you stick with it.

 

Agree that good old dose of ammonia is hard to beat!

 

Knowing your clean cold bore and cold bore shot placement is essential for all your rifles, confidence in your kit etc.

 

Do not go with cleaning the snot out of a barrel after every use, in fact I tend to 'under clean' in some folks eyes, I know when my accuracy goes south on certain rifles. Other rifles get a 'good' clean every time e.g. BPCR's. Stalking rifle gets a bore snake/with very light Kroil, a good clean once a year - then shot and 'seasoned'/pulled thru', put away.

 

Even when deep cleaning do not remove the last trace of gilding metal, a friend who is consistently good at long range and far more 'technical' than I advised against this and he's better than me so do not do this on a regular basis..

 

BUT in all this you do what you need to for your expectations for your sport, do not feel there are any rules as such?

 

T

[The Gun Pimp]

Really, when we get into deep discussion about barrel cleaning, we have perhaps three different segments - the military rifle, the factory sporting rifle and the custom-built comp. rifle.

 

Military rifles can be left to the likes of Mr Cetirizine's ex US Marine armourer - I'm sure he knows what he's talking about but, military rifles don't have to perform like a custom-built comp. gun. Reliability is probably more important than ultimate accuracy.

 

Factory sporting rifles - like terryh's stalking rifle - need to perform to the owner's expected standard and cleaned accordingly.

 

The custom-built comp. gun is a different matter. You bought it to do a specific job - putting the bullet exactly where you wanted it. Can you imagine for example, if Baldie built a gun for a customer, and handed it over with the comments "It might not give it's best until it has a bit of copper in it - and don't get it too clean!"

 

We pay a lot of £££ for a hand-lapped match barrel. We expect it to give its best when it's 'as the maker intended' - clean! We know that accuracy will deteriorate as it gets dirty - the target will show it. It may go 25 plus rounds without any noticeable drop-off but few match barrels will go more than 45-50 rounds without a deterioration in accuracy.

 

Short range benchguns are the most accurate rifles around but the barrels are not special - they just come from Krieger, Bartlein, Hart etc just like your custom match barrel. Believe me - they MUST be kept scrupulously clean to give that one-hole performance.

 

Clean it any way you like with your favourite products but, when the borescope goes in, there shouldn't be a trace of fouling or copper - just like when it was new.

[bradders]

So one of our guys enters the McQueens G class for Service Optic CSR rifles (4.5x magnification, 4.5lb trigger, mag resting at 300yds) and after a few goes shoots a 50.7 to win the competition.

This was with a .223 and a barrel with 2.5k rds, that was hammer forged and recently dimpled by me.

Now this score was remarkable, not only for the fact that he was only .3 V's off a possible just like all the sniper type rifles, but the barrel had been cleaned 600 rds previously

 

We think it's just about conditioned now

[baldie]

Which target do they use at 300 Mark ?

 

Is it the standard Huns head with the 4" ring or the politically correct version with the 1" ghost V ?

 

I,ve only ever shot Mcqueens at 200 on Short siberia with the PC target.

 

Its a shame the Imperial McQueens couldn't be somehow tacked onto the CSR week, I,d love to shoot it at 300.

[bradders]

PC target Dave but they don't use the 1" ring

 

Did you not do the 100yd standing/kneeling McQueens snaps with us a couple of years ago?

That was great fun

[baldie]

Yeah, I did, thinking back [ vaguely ] As I remember , it was pretty hard, and there were a lot of holes where there shouldn't be...

 

Thats still pretty astounding shooting on Paul's part with a service class rifle, and he should be justifiably proud of himself.

[bradders]

Yeah, the boy did dun good....even with his "conditioned" barrel

It will take some beating

[Scotch_egg]

So one of our guys enters the McQueens G class for Service Optic CSR rifles (4.5x magnification, 4.5lb trigger, mag resting at 300yds) and after a few goes shoots a 50.7 to win the competition.

This was with a .223 and a barrel with 2.5k rds, that was hammer forged and recently dimpled by me.

Now this score was remarkable, not only for the fact that he was only .3 V's off a possible just like all the sniper type rifles, but the barrel had been cleaned 600 rds previously

 

We think it's just about conditioned now

I find the fact it has been dimpled very interesting. Something askew to stress relieving a used barrel and still attaining accuracy.