Short & heavy-barrelled 22 centrefire?

[JockStalk]

For vermin. Mulling over choices of 204 Ruger, 220 Swift, 20Tac, 22Creed, 223, 222, 22-250……..

If it’s a short (18 inch) and pointy thing. Unfussed about heavyish barrel contour. And a nice to have, but not essential would be 50gr bullet weight capable. 400m max but accurate enough for crows, fox etc (appreciate all will suffer drift) 

Ideally in a rem700 short action footprint. 

Whats the wisdom on chambering and barrel twist? 
 

[Big Al]

How long do you want the barrel to last?

Of the calibers you suggest it could be anything from 1200 - 6000 rounds.

[JockStalk]

Barrel life probably not that important to me to be honest but it would probably bug me if I had to change at 1200. 2-3000 would be fine. Would be more bothered about it being accurate and delivering a decent punch within 400m

[stephentri]

.223 shooting 77grain tmk 

[JockStalk]

21 hours ago, stephentri said:

.223 shooting 77grain tmk 

Flat shooting?

[Scotch_egg]

18” barrel is where you have got me stumped. Quite the range of options you have listed. From a petite .222 to the old school .22 swift and the 22 creedmoor. 
 

I have gone with a 20” 6mm creedmoor. A bad first outing after following viht’s over cautious load data hasn’t been followed up due to a seriously broken leg. I hope to get out over summer. However due to boredom I have added a 20” .223 to the stable, idle hands and a reality check of the way costs are spiralling. 
 

I did some google and the .223 is about as flat to 300. Wind was different of course. But the bullets are are almost half the weight to achieve this. But when shooting a few rounds down range it’s a hell of a lot cheaper. On barrel wear and component cost. I’ll use the .223 a bit more on the crows at lambing and a bit of range practice.  At 59p a fresh hand loaded round with the a new ppu case it’s a no brainer. Using some spx bullets I got off here at a decent price. If you reload the brass 4 times it significantly reduces that price. 
 

I am hearing the .22 creedmoor is making inroads up north. With a good following for being flat but usually a much longer barrel. 
 

My dads 20” 22-250 is still hard to beat when it comes to it. Not quite sure is the .22 creedmoor is just reinventing the wheel. Much like the 6mm creedmoor is to 6XC, .243 and 6-6.5X47. 
 

if you want that fast flat round for one shot one kill capability sacrifice has to be made somewhere and that really is barrel life. You do get to a point of diminishing returns though. I’ve seen some boomers such as 22-284 and even .243’s shooting the same bullets at the same velocity as my 26” 6mmbr with the same length barrel. 
 

I can also say my .20 Tac with 18” barrel was amazing. I just regretted having a truck axle of a barrel so moved it on when my style of shooting changed.  The short barrel wasn’t an issue and was still keeping up with longer barrelled .204’s to a degree. 
 

There is a lovely re-barrelled Sako A1 .222 with an 18” barrel for sale on SD that would be a sweet shooter I’m sure. 
 

gratuitous rifle photos added, because let’s be honest we all like to see a rifle. 
 

.223 Tikka T3 in TRG stock,  shorted by @Ronin

6mm creedmoor Sako 85 barrel by @Ronin

[JockStalk]

Thanks for the detailed thoughts @Scotch_egg - hope it’s a bit of a distraction to keep the boredom at bay! Heal up and get back at it soon. 
22-284! I can imagine that will have a shortish barrel life. I’ve a 6.5-284 inbound and was thinking that would be hard enough on the barrel. 
Mulling over your views, I think the cost side of things is certainly going to be one factor. Might even be worth having clone setup to another more expensive chambering I’ve got for cheaper practice! 
A quick google and thinking shortening a 22-250 might be a bit boomy. Shorter barrelled treble or 223 might be the option then. Would likely give me options for copper in future too. 
Narrowing it down a bit, at least to start window shopping and depending on what’s about, maybe talking to someone for a build. 
👍👍👍

[Richiew]

 

 What’s  your  favourite  223 fox bullet .

Richiew posted a topic in  Varminting

Hi all Any info on good bullets for foxing  in 223 . Have a 1:8” tikka . Currently using 60 grain Berger varmint and also 52 grain Amax which are very good but not always available. How do 53 grain v- max work. Cheers Rich

 

 

 

Hi there have a look at the above thread for info on the 223 . Fast 1:8” twist tikka is doing great in a form thumbhole stock . Maybe should have gone for the tikka tac a1 but fancied the stainless look. There’s a pic of 73 g bergers on a yellow plate which shows good accuracy. Currently reloading for @70 pence. As usual if component’s are in stock buy in bulk . 
Good luck in your choice.

[Twodogs]

2 hours ago, JockStalk said:

Thanks for the detailed thoughts @Scotch_egg - hope it’s a bit of a distraction to keep the boredom at bay! Heal up and get back at it soon. 
22-284! I can imagine that will have a shortish barrel life. I’ve a 6.5-284 inbound and was thinking that would be hard enough on the barrel. 
Mulling over your views, I think the cost side of things is certainly going to be one factor. Might even be worth having clone setup to another more expensive chambering I’ve got for cheaper practice! 
A quick google and thinking shortening a 22-250 might be a bit boomy. Shorter barrelled treble or 223 might be the option then. Would likely give me options for copper in future too. 
Narrowing it down a bit, at least to start window shopping and depending on what’s about, maybe talking to someone for a build. 
👍👍👍

I’m on the lookout for a 6.5-284 at the mo and have done quite a bit of research around chambering.

Don’t know for what purpose you will be using the rifle so this may be irrelevant.

The chambering has a reputation for being hard on barrels however this seems to be from target shooters who may be firing many rounds, often in quick succession, at any one time. In a stalking/hunting scenario the barrel will rarely get hot enough to do significant damage so round count/barrel life should be significantly higher.

[Dellboy]

Shoot a varmit barrel 24 inch  howa 1500  in 223  out to v bulls at 600 yards  with 77 gr  GGG Ammo .

[JockStalk]

Is the 224 Valkyrie a contender???

[Big Al]

54 minutes ago, JockStalk said:

Is the 224 Valkyrie a contender???

Choose the bullet weight you would prefer to shoot and the speed you would like to drive it at, from there the choice of chambering will become fairly obvious.

Sub 55gr bullets are great to 350yds, 400 at a push, from those ranges outwards in my opinion the best readily available .224 vermin bullets are the 69gr & 77gr TMKs, neither of which are going to be 'flat' if there ever was such a thing?

I built a 224 Valkyrie in bolt action format for a chap, he was happy with it for his application but at the end of the day its just another chambering, no better or worse than many others. Bear in mind it needs its own bolt face and wont work with a .223 bolt face, it would need to be modified and once done wont be any good for .223 again.

[Elliott]

223 77gr TMK’s are great. Had my Tikka 223 rebarreled in 1/8 twist, 25” barrel chambered specifically for this bullet.

53gr V-Max used to perform well out to 400 yards in my other 1/12 twist barrel. Flatter than the 77 TMK’s but lower BC and more wind drift. I’ve got a 204 Ruger shooting 39gr Blitz at 3,750fps if I want something ‘flat’ out to 250 yards.

High BC 77gr TMK’s are great. You can always dial for elevation. Gravity is consistent, it’s wind that’s variable!

[fourtyvoats]

This is a 22/250 single shot with a SAKO L579 action. Twist rate is 1/9. Stock is by GRS which replaced the original stock a few years ago.. It was built by Trevor Proctor in Wilmslow, starting with  a  new Sako Varmint L579. The original 1/14 barrel was replaced with a short, stout.  Lothar Walter  barrel and a single set trigger  from  a Geman maker was installed. Very accurate.

[Scotch_egg]

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

223 77gr TMK’s are great. Had my Tikka 223 rebarreled in 1/8 twist, 25” barrel chambered specifically for this bullet.

53gr V-Max used to perform well out to 400 yards in my other 1/12 twist barrel. Flatter than the 77 TMK’s but lower BC and more wind drift. I’ve got a 204 Ruger shooting 39gr Blitz at 3,750fps if I want something ‘flat’ out to 250 yards.

High BC 77gr TMK’s are great. You can always dial for elevation. Gravity is consistent, it’s wind that’s variable!

What speed are the 77gr out of the 25” tube??? Note the “op” want something around 18”. 
 

I agree wind is the nemesis.  But the portability of a long tube is a PITA. Especially when poking out of the vehicle window…..

 

 

[Richiew]

223 Tikkas come in varmint 20”  1:8” inch twist so would do 53 grain Vmax upto lapua 77 grain types . With a moderator you’re going to be 24” . Even my 16” barrelled.22 lr ends up about 22” with a mod on it  . 

[JockStalk]

So after complete changeover of the cabinet, I’m thinking 53gr yew tree TLR is the bullet, pushed fast 3750 plus. 
220 swift in 7 or 8 twist. Barrel might need a bit more length, but that’s kinda where I’m thinking. 

[Scotch_egg]

On 3/7/2023 at 11:54 AM, JockStalk said:

So after complete changeover of the cabinet, I’m thinking 53gr yew tree TLR is the bullet, pushed fast 3750 plus. 
220 swift in 7 or 8 twist. Barrel might need a bit more length, but that’s kinda where I’m thinking. 

Interesting choice of calibre. Why the swift? 
 

I am not up to date with brass availability and the case rim is rebated with the case body thinner than that of the usual suspect 22-250 and the new kid on the block 22 creedmoor, contrary to popular belief no man bun is required before or after obtaining a variation for this calibre. This means you have to be mindful when loading the magazine that the rims are stacked so not to get stuck on the rim below. 

I also believe that the longer the cartridge won’t achieve a decent powder burn under 24” it would be worth running some quickload data to see at what point complete powder burn can be achieved.  

I am finally getting out with my dad and his 22-250 next week to chronograph some 53gr V-max loads out of his 20” 1-8 barrelled Tikka T3. Might be worth seeing the results. As the 22-250 is usually within 100fps of the Swift. 
 

the 22-250 brass is readily available from a variety of manufacturers. We will be using virgin Winchester brass. This brass was the preferred brass of David Tubb for forming his 6XC so I’m hoping it will give adequate results for fox and vermin. 
 

I am intrigued by your bullet choice though. Why are you choosing a non lead bullet? Unless it is for shooting on land where the land owner expressly demands it, for vermin and fox I would be sticking with the lead options for now. A fast twist would be sensible should a ban come into force but for now lead is widely available and will perform better on light bodied animals and birds especially. 

A 1-7 twist might be a little fast for some of the lighter bullets as the jackets are thin and the bullet may disintegrate due to the centrifugal forces of rotation. But premium bullets such as the 53gr V-max should not be a problem at all. There is also the option of loading heavier bullets to really beat the wind, after all drop is easily calculated these days with range finders and ballistic software giving rapid solutions and let’s be honest if taking extended shots you usually have the added time created by the distance to make those calculations. 
 

Although faster twists do create better results on impact when it does come to bullet expansion resulting in excellent terminal results. This has recently been further explored in the development of the 8.6 blackout and the extremely aggressive twist rates being used with it now being offered in 1-3 twist rates. 

 

Last but not least you will need to run a long action for the swift. Not a big issue but one you need to be aware of when choosing a donor action and subsequent accessories like magazines and floor plates. A non issue if choosing a Tikka T3 donor as they are all long action. 

[JockStalk]

Thanks for taking the time and appreciate the insights. More to mull over! 
I don’t like putting lead into vermin to then let it accumulate in raptors etc. that’s the reason for copper rather than lead. 

[Scotch_egg]

8 hours ago, JockStalk said:

Thanks for taking the time and appreciate the insights. More to mull over! 
I don’t like putting lead into vermin to then let it accumulate in raptors etc. that’s the reason for copper rather than lead. 

Interesting thoughts on secondary poisoning. It’s usually lead being the primary cause of death you hear about when it concerns raptors. I am aware it takes very little lead to be poisonous. 
 

 

[ds1]

Re 224 Valkyrie, it’s becoming my favourite rifle, home loaded 88g Hornady Eldm’s will get around 805 m/s at 15c and Hornady factory Match 88g Eldm’s around 815 m/s at 15c out of my 20” JP Ar15. Accuracy is good with both factory and home loads producing sub 4cm 5 shot groups at 300m. This is better than a lot of the YouTube vids seem to indicate.

Two caveats, my rifle is semi-auto so I am loosing maybe 40fps with the gas system and the attraction to me is an AR15 mag length round with a high for caliber bc that is supersonic at 1km. 
 

I know Baldie has built a few 224V  bolt guns so would highly value his experience. Also as far as YouTube goes Ultimate Reloader ( Gavin Toobin?) has done videos on his 224V Ar15 and bolt gun builds.
 

In a bolt guns there are obviously not the same magazine and bolt face constraints that are inherent in an AR15 platform so then I would maybe be looking at 22br if you’re only going to home load. 224V is still good ( or has been for me) with factory ammunition.

 

 

[Richiew]

Thought most bullets no matter what type usually pass through so very little lead in the carcass to pollute any raptors feeding on left over meat . Pick up your dead shot animals and there won’t be a problem????

 

[JockStalk]

Vermin bullets are typically frangible, lead shatters/ vapourises through the carcass. 
Hit a bunny at 4000fps and ‘picking up’ might be a challenge. 
It’s not that a raptor feeds off a carcass that is lead contaminated and drops dead, the lead accumulates and they lose condition, die a slow death. 
As a kid, seeing a buzzard was a rare sight. Thankfully that’s not the case now, all raptors are making a comeback - the red kite being a great, common sight locally. 

[Dellboy]

10 hours ago, ds1 said:

Re 224 Valkyrie, it’s becoming my favourite rifle, home loaded 88g Hornady Eldm’s will get around 805 m/s at 15c and Hornady factory Match 88g Eldm’s around 815 m/s at 15c out of my 20” JP Ar15. Accuracy is good with both factory and home loads producing sub 4cm 5 shot groups at 300m. This is better than a lot of the YouTube vids seem to indicate.

Two caveats, my rifle is semi-auto so I am loosing maybe 40fps with the gas system and the attraction to me is an AR15 mag length round with a high for caliber bc that is supersonic at 1km. 
 

I know Baldie has built a few 224V  bolt guns so would highly value his experience. Also as far as YouTube goes Ultimate Reloader ( Gavin Toobin?) has done videos on his 224V Ar15 and bolt gun builds.
 

In a bolt guns there are obviously not the same magazine and bolt face constraints that are inherent in an AR15 platform so then I would maybe be looking at 22br if you’re only going to home load. 224V is still good ( or has been for me) with factory ammunition.

 

 

That in semi auto would shame a few bolt guns  supebly accurate (even with me behind it )

[Richiew]

11 hours ago, JockStalk said:

Vermin bullets are typically frangible, lead shatters/ vapourises through the carcass. 
Hit a bunny at 4000fps and ‘picking up’ might be a challenge. 
It’s not that a raptor feeds off a carcass that is lead contaminated and drops dead, the lead accumulates and they lose condition, die a slow death. 
As a kid, seeing a buzzard was a rare sight. Thankfully that’s not the case now, all raptors are making a comeback - the red kite being a great, common sight locally. 

22 lr pass through bunnies and I’ve moved onto cci 20 grain jacketed bullets in the 17 hmr which don’t expand much at all . Mostly using target bullets for fox nowadays and pick up all the shot carcasses.