6.5 RSAUM

[baldie]

Finished this one today.

 

Its a Valhalla action short action with a WSM bolt face. It feeds the 6.5 RSAUM cartridge, or the 4s GAP.

 

 

The barrel is a 1 in 8.5 twist Bartlien, threaded and capped as usual.

 

 

Moderator is a stainless magnum MYM.

 

The trigger is a Jewel.

 

 

Stock is an Accuracy International fitted with an IMUNS rail for the customers stupidly expensive NV gear.

 

 

 

I suspect this will be a superb extreme range 6.5 .Can't think of another that will live with its power.

[dannywayoflife]

Nice!!!

[SWShooter]

Very nice , whats the recoil like on 6.5 SAUM?

[gunner]

.

[gbal]

6.5Rem SAUM 140g@ 3100fps

 

As Dave says,this is a pretty stiff 6.5

 

 

cf the old 1966 Rem 6.5 Mag 140@2900 rifle weight 8.5lb Recoil Energy 13.9 Recoil Velocity12.1

 

264 win mag 140@3030 8.5 19.2 12.1

 

6.5x284 140@2920 8 13.1 10.3

 

270w 140@3000 8.5 17.1 11.7

 

308 180 @2610 8 17.5 11.9

 

 

These may be more familiar and give some ball park idea....Newtons second law holds,but of course rifle weight-unknown here-and subjectively,stock design and macho orientation.

 

Gernerally reckoned Recoil Energy 15 and Recoil Velocity 10 are getting close to comfort levels...

 

The old 6.5 Rem Mag would give the new 6.5SAUM a close run,if it had the benefit of a Dave longer barrel,and not handicapped by the 18 inch one it did have....that kicked a bit.What's really new?

 

The Lazzeroni Phantom ( 6.71,but 264 really) 120@3312 might too....

 

The 7mm Rem Mag too 140@3100 9lb 19.3 11.8

 

Check your dentures,and force a smile,but it isn't horrendous.

 

:-)

 

gbal

[trucraft]

Very nice , whats the recoil like on 6.5 SAUM?

 

Judging by the weight of this rifle it would feel like you were shooting a 308

[The Gun Pimp]

6.5Rem SAUM 140g@ 3100fps

gbal

Er - a good bit quicker than that George!

[gbal]

Vince,yes they can all go quicker....until.....

 

I took SWS's recoil question to be in the general interest ball park,and gave some figures for a ball park comparison-best that could be done because:

 

I could not find factory ammo data on the 6.5 SAUM -and as a matter of principle,I am reluctant to quote data that derives from reloading that does not include pressure measures (ie all such data);and also here we have no data at all on the specific rifle,not even it's weight-that's not a criticism,but it renders any ball park recoil estimate very much ball park........a troll of sniper's hide and the like showed modal velocities were around 3150 +/- 50 fps with 140g,possibly with one eye on barrel life....one claimed 140g @3400,barrel life 600...hmmm

 

I gave some data for the snappier 6.5s;the 6.5 SAUM is probably pretty near the top (260 Nosler claims 129g@3400 in factory ammo....) and overlaps into the potent 7mm recoils.,like 7 RemMag 139 Hornady Interbond @ 3250 fps,though by no means all (factory) cartridge loadings for any one cartridge will be SAAMI max,so it's no more than a ballpark idea,if anyone has fired these.

 

Let's see what a considered view from George Gardner reads like,as he is an informed proponent of the 6.5 Saum:

 

"A 6.5x284 gets 2950 with a 140 bullet running at 68000 psi pressure.The 6.5 SAUM gets 3100 from the same bullet,at 55000 psi. Run it hot,and wear it out,fast-not the point-that's:

1) terminal killing energy

2) barrel life 2500

3) low recoil

4) serious accuracy

 

The 6.5 SAUM does all four better than anything else.There are cartridges that do one or two better,but not all four."

 

That seems fair enough,especially for a hunting cartridge. I'd be inclined to suggest 'tolerable' recoil if repeated shots,say on a range,especially if velocity is upped,but it is somewhat subjective-and of course,rifle weights will be way up compared to hunting rigs.Juries-plural- still out on barrel life....

 

As Dave says,it's a hammer of a 6.5. But it can't match the better 7s,which may be a good thing ,vis a vis recoil!

The 7RSAUM is 140@3150,relative recoil factor 2.07; the 7RUM 140@3425 is 2.13; 7Rem Mag 139@3250 is 2.06. 30-06 is about 2.19; 308 1.95. But those relative recoil factors are weight controlled for....

 

The 6.5x47 (actually 260rem data) is about 120@2950/140 2800 and 1.72 relative recoil factor.

So more bang and possibly buck with the 6.5 SAUM. :-)

 

gbal

[gbal]

Vince,yes they can all go quicker....until.....

I took SWS's recoil question to be in the general interest ball park,and gave some figures for a ball park comparison-best that could be done because:

I could not find factory ammo data on the 6.5 SAUM -and as a matter of principle,I am reluctant to quote data that derives from reloading that does not include pressure measures (ie all such data),without which it is not fairly and safely comparable: also here we have no data at all on the specific rifle,not even it's weight-that's not a criticism,but it renders any ball park recoil estimate very much ball park........a troll of sniper's hide and the like showed modal velocities were around 3150 +/- 50 fps with 140g,possibly with one eye on barrel life....one claimed 140g @3400,barrel life 600...hmmm

 

I gave some data for the snappier 6.5s;the 6.5 SAUM is probably pretty near the top (260 Nosler claims 129g@3400 in factory ammo....) and overlaps into the potent 7mm recoils.,like 7 RemMag 139 Hornady Interbond @ 3250 fps,though by no means all cartridg loadings for any one cartridge will be SAAMI max,so it's no more than a ballpark idea,if anyone has fired these.

Let's see what a considered view from George Gardner reads like,as he is an informed proponent of the 6.5 Saum:

 

"A 6.5x284 gets 2950 with a 140 bullet running at 68000 psi pressure.The 6.5 SAUM gets 3100 from the same bullet,at 5500 psi. Run it hot,and wear it out,fast-not the point-that's:

1) terminal killing energy

2) barrel life 2500

3) low recoil

4) serious accuracy

The 6.5 SAUM does all four better than anything else.There are cartridges that do one or two better,but not all four."

 

That seems fair enough,especially for a hunting cartridge. I'd be inclined to suggest 'tolerable' recoil if repeated shots,say on a range,especially if velocity is upped,but it is somewhat subjective-and of course,rifle weights will be way up compared to hunting rigs.Juries-plural- still out on barrel life....Nosler lurks around somewhere....

 

As Dave says,it's a hammer of a 6.5.

 

But it can't match the better 7s,which may be a good thing ,vis a vis recoil!

The 7RSAUM is 140@3150,relative recoil factor 2.07; the 7RUM 140@3425 is 2.13; 7Rem Mag 139@3250 is 2.06. 30-06 is about 2.19; 308 1.95. But those relative recoil factors are weight controlled for....

The 6.5x47 (actually 260rem data) is about 120@2950/140 2800 and 1.72 relative recoil factor.

 

So more bang and possibly buck with the 6.5 SAUM. :-)

gbal

[Swarovski1]

What case is used for this saum then, it looks like a aics mag system, room in the mag must be tight,what oal is the saum, would excessive throat wear soon lead to single feeding.

[gbal]

Neil,the Remington Ultra Mag and the shortened Rem SAUM are derived from the 404 Jeffery case,as are many other hot items.The 404 is a 1909 Nitro Express number (think 4500ft lb energy)-used for the current proprietary Dakota series of heavy cartridges.In Europe it was the 10.75x73 cartridge (mm)

 

OK.About 15 years ago,first Winchester,then shortly Remington(2002 for RSAUM) each brought out a series of short fat magnum cartridges,in two lengths (the WSM and WSSMs;and the RUMand RSAUMs).

 

The Remingtons came in 300,7mm,6.5-essentially by necking down. The SAUM has SAAMI specs thus:

 

OAL 2.035 inches;.534 bolt face;girth at web .550,shoulder.535;base to shoulder 1.538

 

This should fit SA (308) actions like the R700 clones.

 

Magazine system will follow above.

 

Throat wear?...well see my previous quote by George Gardner....if the 6.5 really does run at reduced pressures,then barrel life should be better than many hot numbers. You'll still be chasing the throat-just as with your 6.5-06(which should be good for quite a few hundred more) or any cartridge really!

At one time,Remington were loading three different power/recoil cartridges for the 7SAUM....maybe one recoil just didn't fit all !!

 

Designed primarily as a hunting big basher,barrel life is not a prime concern,though of course LR targeteers have used all these cartridges in the search for the unholy grail...but generally barrel life has not been great....price to pay!!

 

If you Google,there is quite a detailed article on one custom build project rifle "6.5 SAUM",by Sin City Precision,Nov14 2013.And scattered various in the likes of Sniper Hide....we've had nearly 15 years of these families by now....

 

gbal

[trucraft]

Neil,the Remington Ultra Mag and the shortened Rem SAUM are derived from the 404 Jeffery case,as are many other hot items.The 404 is a 1909 Nitro Express number (think 4500ft)-used for the current proprietary Dakota series of heavy cartridges.In Europe it was the 10.75x73 cartridge (mm)

OK.About 15 years ago,first Winchester,then shortly Remington(2002 for RSAUM) each brought out a series of short fat magnum cartridges,in two lengths (the WSM and WSSMs;and the RUMand RSAUMs).

The Remingtons came in 300,7mm,6.5-essentially by necking down. The SAUM has SAAMI specs thus:

OAL 2.035 inches;.534 bolt face;irth a web .550,shoulder.535;base to shoulder 1.538

This should fit SA (308) actions like the R700 clones.

Magazine system will follow above.

Throat wear?...well see my previous quote by George Gardner....if the 6.5 really does run at reduced pressures,then barrel life sshould be better than many hot numbers. you'll still be chasing the throat-just as with your 6.5-06(which should be good for quite a few hundred more) or any cartridge really!

At one time,Remington were loading three different power/recoil cartridges for the 7SAUM....maybe one recoil just didn't fit all !!

Designed primarily as a hunting big basher,barrel life is not a prime concern,though of course LR targeteers have used all these cartridges in the search for the unholy grail...but generally barrel life ihas not great....price to pay!!

If you Google,there is quite a detailed article on one custom build project rifle "6.5 SAUM",by Sin City Precision,Nov14 2013.And scattered various in the likes of Sniper Hide....we've had nearly 15 years of these families by now....

gbal[/qugbal

 

You're such a nerd gbal.

 

Too much time to spend on google.

[gbal]

Trucraft,ignorance isn't always bliss,so thank you.

 

The reference(s) to Google are for those who are interested (and ask the questions),but don't have the time, inclination,resources,whatever to do the real research.

I'll admit I do.Forty years of academia-education and research-establish such habits.

 

Reading it is optional,of course,so feel free to indulge ignorance,if you prefer.Most of the content on here is hardly life enhancing,or even important in the grand scheme of things. It's a hobby.

atb

gbal

[Swarovski1]

Jeez truecraft, not sure calling george a nerd was called for, he has probaly forgotten more than you know about shooting, h3 is a wealth of knowledge and experience, I would stand corrected though.ive heard of all the 6.5 and 7mm boomers, ive not looked into some of the parent cartridges, never heard of the 404 Jeffreys,

[trucraft]

Trucraft,ignorance isn't always bliss,so thank you.

 

The reference(s) to Google are for those who are interested (and ask the questions),but don't have the time, inclination,resources,whatever to do the real research.

I'll admit I do.Forty years of academia-education and research-establish such habits.

 

Reading it is optional,of course,so feel free to indulge ignorance,if you prefer.Most of the content on here is hardly life enhancing,or even important in the grand scheme of things. It's a hobby.

atb

gbal

 

Affectionate banter is all that was meant George.

Please don't take it any other way.

I think most of us on this forum could admit to being gun 'nerds' my self included.

Those of us who spends hours doing load development, researching ballistics and beating ourselves up over inconsistencies of a few thous of an inch for a hobby have to be able to laugh at ourselves.

[gbal]

tru,absolutely,all smiles-I think the nuances of 'nerd' in the several dictionaries looked at are rather pejorative-only the 'boring' bit could possibly apply(as no evidence on all the others).

 

My favourite in such cases is various editions of the Devil's Dictionary viz: "bore" -someone who has something relevant and informative to others,that I can't understand".

 

MInd you,I did have a colleague,Prof R,who spoke eighteen european languages,but had nothing interesting to say to anyone in any of them-so an academic can get the balance wrong!

 

While I've been into guns all my life,it's not an obsession-just a hobby-so even on that 'nerd' is limited-I'm a little rusty on Crufts these days (English Pointer);wrote a first class essay on "Conservation means good management' way back in early sixties,and once made a beech fruit bowl,still in use. All hobbies though,compared to research on children.

But I'll concede this -perhaps the term 'nerd' is from the crittur in "If I ruled the Zoo" by Dr Zeuss (really Theodor Geisel,Dartford College and Oxford University- now,that is getting a bit nerdy,as no-one will be interested. It does follow up the ad lib by the great Tom Lehrer,who wrote whimsical

songs back then,and told his audience he actually just gave concerts as a hobby-his day job was a maths professor at Harvard.)**

 

(More than) enough,already!

 

'Affectionate' ribbing is fine,and sometimes a useful nudge. :-)

 

Is a 'labradoodle' still a wildcat?

 

g

 

** his hunting song has the lines:

 

"I shot the maximum the game laws would allow-

Two Game Wardens,seven hunters and a big brown Jersey cow".

 

"An evening wasted with TL"....very non PC

[trucraft]

Is a 'labradoodle' still a wildcat?

 

No, i am sure they are now mass produced in SAAMI spec. lol.

 

Nerd, 'a single-minded expert in a particular technical field'.

Don't know about you George but I am regularly out standing in my field and my partner would definitely say I'm single minded at times.

Anyway sorry to have taken this thread way off topic.

I'm glad there was no offence take George.

[gbal]

Ha ha- even the 'expert' bit is OTT. If only there was a shooting version of 'Trivial Pursuit'.

 

I don't get out standing in any field as often as I used to.

All good fun-and an excuse to reread Dr Zeuss and listen to Tom Lehrer,for a while.

 

All's well that ends well (I take that one on trust-too hard going for me to read.)

 

A bit off topic,apologies all round- Neil,remember the Stones great track:

 

"Get your kicks,on route 65-06"

 

:-)

[SWShooter]

tru,absolutely,all smiles-I think the nuances of 'nerd' in the several dictionaries looked at are rather pejorative-only the 'boring' bit could possibly apply(as no evidence on all the others).

 

My favourite in such cases is various editions of the Devil's Dictionary viz: "bore" -someone who has something relevant and informative to others,that I can't understand".

 

MInd you,I did have a colleague,Prof R,who spoke eighteen european languages,but had nothing interesting to say to anyone in any of them-so an academic can get the balance wrong!

 

While I've been into guns all my life,it's not an obsession-just a hobby-so even on that 'nerd' is limited-I'm a little rusty on Crufts these days (English Pointer);wrote a first class essay on "Conservation means good management' way back in early sixties,and once made a beech fruit bowl,still in use. All hobbies though,compared to research on children.

But I'll concede this -perhaps the term 'nerd' is from the crittur in "If I ruled the Zoo" by Dr Zeuss (really Theodor Geisel,Dartford College and Oxford University- now,that is getting a bit nerdy,as no-one will be interested. It does follow up the ad lib by the great Tom Lehrer,who wrote whimsical

songs back then,and told his audience he actually just gave concerts as a hobby-his day job was a maths professor at Harvard.)**

 

(More than) enough,already!

 

'Affectionate' ribbing is fine,and sometimes a useful nudge. :-)

 

Is a 'labradoodle' still a wildcat?

 

g

 

** his hunting song has the lines:

 

"I shot the maximum the game laws would allow-

Two Game Wardens,seven hunters and a big brown Jersey cow".

 

"An evening wasted with TL"....very non PC

Would you mind referencing please , Havard prefered

 

PS Thanks for the felt recoil data.

[gbal]

SWS,didn't think many would be all that bothered with full references.

 

I assume you mean the Harvard system-as referenced below: viz:

 

"Referencing-The Harvard System":University of Exeter,Department of Lifelong Learning

 

http:// education.exeter.ac.uk /study skills

 

I thought the Exeter version would be nearest ,given SWShooter!

But they are pretty much all the same...OTT for this site though I think it's good practice;generally Author/Book TItle (Year) should suffice to chase it down

 

Was there a particular source mentioned and not 'referenced' well enough - Tom Lehrer is on CD now.

Bierce,A The devil's dictionary. There are a few others...('Love":a powerful emotional condition,usually cured by marriage"-that sort of cynicism/grain of truth).

 

No problem with the recoil data -giving information is how I get my kicks! (well ,some of them).;-)

 

g

[SWShooter]

SWS,didn't think many would be all that bothered with full references.

 

I assume you mean the Harvard system-as referenced below: viz:

 

"Referencing-The Harvard System":University of Exeter,Department of Lifelong Learning

 

http:// education.exeter.ac.uk /study skills

 

I thought the Exeter version would be nearest ,given SWShooter!

But they are pretty much all the same...OTT for this site though I think it's good practice;generally Author/Book TItle (Year) should suffice to chase it down

 

Was there a particular source mentioned and not 'referenced' well enough - Tom Lehrer is on CD now.

Bierce,A The devil's dictionary. There are a few others...('Love":a powerful emotional condition,usually cured by marriage"-that sort of cynicism/grain of truth).

 

No problem with the recoil data -giving information is how I get my kicks! (well ,some of them).;-)

 

g

I`ve had to do my fair share of referencing , always Havard although most Uni`s seem to have their own version of Havard ...kind of defeats the object in my view.

 

Do you have a formula (simple) for calculating felt recoil ?

 

Cheers

[gbal]

SWS-if you use 'proper' referencing,best get it right - Harvard as in Harvard University.

 

The local variants are in the somewhat tedious detail that is mostly inappropriate for students-though it is a dead end if a decent reference isn't given when you want to follow up on something for serious research,rather than today's essay (they seemed to be written after midnight ..... :-)

 

Yeah,I look up the recoil factors in a reference book,like BCs in Litz. All done on the same basis,essentially the muzzle momentum of bullet and gas ,so comparable....if actual wildcat/home reloads were used....values would vary (velocity/weight etc) and cease to be comparative.And then there is subjectivity....the comparative values do just that-they don't say you will like it or not,or how tough you are.Newtonian,really. Google these for examples:

 

A Rifle Recoil Calculator kwk.us>recoil

 

Rifle Recoil Table Chuck Hawks

 

What to expect when moving up caliber Chuck Hawks

 

gbal

[Chanonry]

This is all driven off the PRS speed limit of 3100 fps isn't it ?

 

So GA wants to throw a high bc 6.5 bullet at the speed limit hence SAUM, which gives him an advantage over the 6.5x47L, 6.5 CM, 260 crowd.

 

Presumably (but I have not checked) he will see some advantage over the girls shooting 6mm Hybrids. If I recall correctly they were popular because the velocity advantage they have over the 'regular' 6.5 cartridges outweighed their slightly poorer BC.

 

They will be looking at 7RM next ?!

 

Just when they were all getting excited about 6.5 CM, turns out it is not the answer to a maidens prayer after all.

[Scotch_egg]

This is all driven off the PRS speed limit of 3100 fps isn't it ?

 

So GA wants to throw a high bc 6.5 bullet at the speed limit hence SAUM, which gives him an advantage over the 6.5x47L, 6.5 CM, 260 crowd.

 

Presumably (but I have not checked) he will see some advantage over the girls shooting 6mm Hybrids. If I recall correctly they were popular because the velocity advantage they have over the 'regular' 6.5 cartridges outweighed their slightly poorer BC.

 

They will be looking at 7RM next ?!

 

Just when they were all getting excited about 6.5 CM, turns out it is not the answer to a maidens prayer after all.

 

The 6.5 SAUM was introduced by George for his extreme hunter rifle, not to conform the PRS speed limits.

 

GAP use the 6mm Creedmoor in their comp rifles

[Swarovski1]

Why is such a weapon needed for lamping.must be some hard foxes out his way