professional load development

[Offroad Gary]

one for the pro's or people that have had it done...

 

a friend recently had loed development done by a pro rifle builder (i wont name and shame so dont ask), but what he was given was IMO not was he had paid for. not sure of the cost but in the region of £250 - £300 i guess, what do you guys think he should be given for the money..

 

i would expect some detail, different bullet types/weights explored, different powders explored, differnt COL's explored, test targets as proof and for future reference .... do we think just a .010 off measured round, one bullet, one power type, a few random weights etc.. there you go mate, theres your load, off you go... is that really what you would expect?

 

what do you guys provide or what would you expect - perhaps i expect too much? i could have done what was delivered in a hour or two...

 

many thanks

[DaveT]

one for the pro's or people that have had it done...

 

a friend recently had loed development done by a pro rifle builder (i wont name and shame so dont ask), but what he was given was IMO not was he had paid for. not sure of the cost but in the region of £250 - £300 i guess, what do you guys think he should be given for the money..

 

i would expect some detail, different bullet types/weights explored, different powders explored, differnt COL's explored, test targets as proof and for future reference .... do we think just a .010 off measured round, one bullet, one power type, a few random weights etc.. there you go mate, theres your load, off you go... is that really what you would expect?

 

what do you guys provide or what would you expect - perhaps i expect too much? i could have done what was delivered in a hour or two...

 

many thanks

 

Just my opinion of course but decent load development takes a lot of time , materials and experience to do properly so the amount of money is , if anything , somewhat less than I would have expected.

 

However I would have expected the background data that you summarise to have been fully provided (IE why certain powders / bullets etc were rejected in favour of whatever actually IS recommended) and I would expect target examples as 'proof'. My minimum data expectation would include the specific brass used,cartridge COL measured as an Ogive not Head-to-tip measure, Powder weight and type (including any acccuracy nodes identified on the way to final charge-weight selection), specific bullet make, type and weight, FPS and ES , an initial drop table and all rejected combinations so that I did not waste any time with these in future.

 

Unless time is critical or you simply don't have the knowledge to do it yourself then I guess that you really need to agree the 'deliverables' up-front with your chosen provider.

 

Far better to DIY and gain experience as you go by calling upon others to help.

[Gunsgobang88]

one for the pro's or people that have had it done...

 

a friend recently had loed development done by a pro rifle builder (i wont name and shame so dont ask), but what he was given was IMO not was he had paid for. not sure of the cost but in the region of £250 - £300 i guess, what do you guys think he should be given for the money..

 

i would expect some detail, different bullet types/weights explored, different powders explored, differnt COL's explored, test targets as proof and for future reference .... do we think just a .010 off measured round, one bullet, one power type, a few random weights etc.. there you go mate, theres your load, off you go... is that really what you would expect?

 

what do you guys provide or what would you expect - perhaps i expect too much? i could have done what was delivered in a hour or two...

 

many thanks

Hi,

 

A normal procedure would be that the rifle maker/load developer talks through the client's needs, type of shooting anticipated. After discussion an appropriate component selection would be made and load development started. The load should reach as agreed specifications for velocity, accuracy etc. and be backed up by a selection of targets and chronograph readings. Should the client require different loads e.g. stalking and vermin or solid and expanding for dangerous game then obviously this would cost more. Price should reflect component cost, loading time, range time and hire if applicable,

 

Alan

[TonyH]

.............Far better to DIY and gain experience as you go by calling upon others to help.

 

Agree absolutely. Surely, load development is all part of the joy of handloading? I wasn't even aware it was possible to pay someone to do this! Can't decide if it's better or worse than buying factory ammo - actually on balance it's probably worse, given what this service seems to cost. Shooting things using ammo carefully developed and crafted by oneself is a huge part of the fun of shooting - well, just my opinion. I'd find it sad & boring to go into the field armed with ammo assembled by someone else. And as Dave says, DIY is a highly instructive process.

Tony

[Ronin]

I think unless specifically requested, load development is a very costly excercise.

 

e.g

 

 

if I were developing a load for say a 25-06 for deer work.

 

Id look at a minimum of 4 available bullets (100 - 120 grain)

 

 

Look at various powders, (4831Sc, Vit 160, H1000, RL 22, RL 25 - for example)

 

 

Then off to the range with loading equipment and spend the day there with chronograph and test each load / bullet for best accuracy...

 

 

A days time, x number of bullets and various powders do not make this a cheap excercise.

 

 

I would say its more fun for the end user to experiment and find their ideal load combination than pay someone to do it - they also have the benefit of "trigger time" to get used to their new aquisition.

[andybrock]

Agree absolutely. Surely, load development is all part of the joy of handloading? I wasn't even aware it was possible to pay someone to do this! Can't decide if it's better or worse than buying factory ammo - actually on balance it's probably worse, given what this service seems to cost. Shooting things using ammo carefully developed and crafted by oneself is a huge part of the fun of shooting - well, just my opinion. I'd find it sad & boring to go into the field armed with ammo assembled by someone else. And as Dave says, DIY is a highly instructive process.

Tony

 

I think load development and reloading is like Marmite you either love it or hate it, personally I love it I also enjoy reloading! but I guess some people neither have the time nor want the hassle and out lay of buying reloading equipment etc, it's a bit like fly fishing I've got a friend who spends very little time fly fishing but spends hours upon hours making flies for others just because that's what he enjoys doing.

 

Andy

[6.5shooter]

My time is limited for shooting an id rather spend it shooting than spending a couple of days load developing, i dont know why but I find the whole process stressful.

Therefore i I build a custom rifle or get a rebarrel I always pay to get it done.

They usually have a larger selection of powder, bullets and primers to play with to fing the optimum load so I think £250 is about right for the time and consumables spent.

 

 

Garry

[brown dog]

one for the pro's or people that have had it done...

 

a friend recently had loed development done by a pro rifle builder (i wont name and shame so dont ask), but what he was given was IMO not was he had paid for. not sure of the cost but in the region of £250 - £300 i guess, what do you guys think he should be given for the money..

 

i would expect some detail, different bullet types/weights explored, different powders explored, differnt COL's explored, test targets as proof and for future reference .... do we think just a .010 off measured round, one bullet, one power type, a few random weights etc.. there you go mate, theres your load, off you go... is that really what you would expect?

 

what do you guys provide or what would you expect - perhaps i expect too much? i could have done what was delivered in a hour or two...

 

many thanks

 

Ummm. Bottom line not mentioned.

 

Did the load achieve what your pal had specified and at the price specified?

 

If 'yes' and 'yes' then can't see a problem

[Offroad Gary]

Ummm. Bottom line not mentioned.

 

Did the load achieve what your pal had specified and at the price specified?

 

If 'yes' and 'yes' then can't see a problem

 

the load demonstrated that the rifle was shooting within its accuracy guarantee (.5 moa) that is all. i'm sure almost any random load would do it in a rifle of that quality - no mention of beef with the rifle, just that the "load development" was not really that - a couple of educated guesses that were bound to work well.

[oaken]

Am I missing something here?

Developing a load is part of the fun of shooting for me. Once I establish the optimum load for various bullets I start looking towards my next rifle.

Anyone around here want a load worked up for their rifle? I'll do it for £250 ;-) ;-) ;-)

[brown dog]

the load demonstrated that the rifle was shooting within its accuracy guarantee (.5 moa) that is all. i'm sure almost any random load would do it in a rifle of that quality - no mention of beef with the rifle, just that the "load development" was not really that - a couple of educated guesses that were bound to work well.

 

I'm not getting your angle here

 

A rifle guaranteed by a maker to shoot to 0.5MOA; then ammo handmade for it that achieves that?

And that's somehow a problem?

Have I missed something or is my understanding correct?

[Scotch_egg]

I am still in my view a novice when it comes to reloading. However a little research on the net provided me with starters for 10 when it came to load development for my rifles. All my rifle's shoot well under .5 MOA

 

 

However when you pay for load development I understand you usually are supplied with some loaded rounds. Circa 100.

 

 

Then you have to factor in brass, powder, primers and bullets. Plus case prep time all on top of the development time.

 

 

Suddenly it adds up.

 

How much would 100 factory federal GMM cost

[gun nut]

I totally agree with b d. If your mate got a bullet/accuracy/velocity to suit his needs the fact that an experienced load developer can pinpoint it

without having to try multiple tens of head/powder/load/oal/primer combinations is surely part of what you pay for, ie his knowledge.

I personally do my own load development and have done for at least 7 calibres but must admit that it can be a very frustrating and costly business,anyone like

to buy the 70 6.5 Berger VLD's left of the 100 that cost me £40 to find out my rifle doesn't like them?? Having said that you can usually do sub

half moa given a little patience and a lot of reading on forums such as here and the satisfaction factor is priceless.

As a minimum i would expect the full recipe for the load, including muzzle velocity details and with a drop chart to tie in with the intended use.

 

Mike

[Offroad Gary]

Guys

The point is being missed.

The new rifle, circa £4k was sold with an accuracy guarantee of 0.5 moa, which it achieved, and could have been demonstrated with a box of factory ammo, I suspect. The load development was an add-on circa £250 which was sold by the builder. The key word is development, which didn't really happen. I was really interested was what you would proved/or have received, not the merits of doing it yourself. The builder sold development, and delivered a load that met the accuracy garuntee only, not the best for the rifle. My friend (the second nicest guy you will ever meet) feels slightly cheated, and part of me is sad for him - but part of me will soon be able to say "I can develop better loads than ........??" At least we will have the satisfaction.

[baldie]

I get asked every week to load develope for guns i,ve built or customers own. I wont do it.

 

How the heck anyone can find the time to do it properly for one customer, never mind dozens is beyond me.

 

Factor in a set of dies. A bag/box of quality brass. 3 or 4 types of bullets. At least a couple of powders, then a couple of types of primers. £300 before you've started there.

 

A day at the range at £45 an hour, plus fuel etc to get there. All of a sudden it starts to become very expensive indeed.

 

For me, a developed load would be the bullet/powder/primer of my choice. All fully prepped, and sat at the optimum seating depth for the combo. There is no guarantee however that it would be the BEST load for the gun is there ?

 

I find its a lot easier and cheaper for the customer to point them in the right direction for what components will work. After all, the rifle builder ought to know what a good starting point would be, in a gun he's built.

 

A very difficult subject to actually quantify Bucksden.

[c18rch]

What did your mate actually ask for?

 

If he only asked for 0.5 moa then job done. Even in a quality rifle true, repeatable 05.moa accuracy isn't easy to achieve.

 

If your mate asked for the best load the rifle could produce then the manufacturer would have been stupid to accept the job. How can you actually prove that the developed load is the best the rifle can produce unless you try every single bullet, powder, case, primer, seating depth, neck tension combination.

 

What is the rifle going to be used for unless it's benchrest do you realistically need anything more accurate than 0.5 moa? If it is benchrest then you really need to develop your own loads to allow for temperature changes etc.

 

My arguement would be if the manufacturer guaranteed 0.5 moa I would have expected him to produce a test card anyway so why did your mate pay extra for this?

[eldon]

 

The new rifle, circa £4k was sold with an accuracy guarantee of 0.5 moa, which it achieved, and could have been demonstrated with a box of factory ammo,

 

Bucksden do you really believe that any old factory ammo would meet the guarantee?

Not being funny but that is what you seem to be implying

 

You seem to dismiss 0.5moa as nothing especially with the rifle costing so much.

[MJR]

1/2 MOA guaranteed rifle.

Ammunition developed to deliver said accuracy.

It sounds like your mate recieved what was agreed and I don't see your point beyond that.

If you were expecting a detailed list of all powder/bullet combinations then there is no way anyone could supply that on a commercial basis especially not for the price your mate paid.

I had a custom rifle built and the riflesmith kindly agreed to let me watch the load development process. The gun had been built to suit one bullet weight so development was restricted to that bullet type. I learnt a hell of a lot for which I am very grateful and I got a load that delivered well in excess of what the smith originally quoted. Happy days.

[skany]

I think its a bit subjective

 

whts included in the £250

 

brass?

 

100 loaded rnds of the developed load?

 

If the guys gone out with some brass/bullets hes got kicking about & tried a luck dip aproach & got his 1/2moa(most smiths would have an ideah where to start i imagine!)up his loacal permision for a couple of hours of his time then yeah id say 250 a first rate rip off!

 

cheers Andy

[matchking]

For £250 i would want load data and a happy ending

ATB SEAN

[Offroad Gary]

I think its a bit subjective

 

whts included in the £250

 

brass?

 

100 loaded rnds of the developed load?

 

If the guys gone out with some brass/bullets hes got kicking about & tried a luck dip aproach & got his 1/2moa(most smiths would have an ideah where to start i imagine!)up his loacal permision for a couple of hours of his time then yeah id say 250 a first rate rip off!

 

cheers Andy

Pretty much spot on there I think. Brass bought by customer and 50 loaded rounds supplied with recipe and 15 fired, 35 unfired. The 50 rounds were also an extra cost. So the 250 quid was a good earner, he has range on site so no travel. Nuff said, bedtime!!

[Finman]

Pretty much spot on there I think. Brass bought by customer and 50 loaded rounds supplied with recipe and 15 fired, 35 unfired. The 50 rounds were also an extra cost. So the 250 quid was a good earner, he has range on site so no travel. Nuff said, bedtime!!

 

Very interesting discussion...Whilst I have never had anybody develop any rounds for me, I cannot see a problem with what happened here. Even if the brass was bought by your mate, the expertise, time and effort to put the load together and then supply it to your friend with the expectations promised, met by the load in question, then there is no breach of contract (if there ever was such a thing). I suspect the gunsmith told the customer the cost of said operation and the customer agreed. So, two parties enter an agreement with mutual consent. Now, if the load delivered was nothing exotic (in terms of bullet/primer/powder combinations), then what is the issue?

 

I see a major attitude problem here: services are expected (with agreed cost parameters), delivered by a chap (whoever he may be) who has toiled in the gunsmithing trade for years to be able to do what he does, to a customer who BOUGHT said services. IF the cost of this load development was too much for your mate, he could well walk away when he was told what it is going to cost.

 

Coming into a forum and raising questions such as this one, with contributions which label a business practice as a 'rip off', is similar to coming to this forum and saying that '###### plummer charged me a £80 call out fee and £100 an hour and fixed my tap, for £120'. This is not rip off, it is what they charge, and, from what I hear, what the customer was prepared to pay. Look at the jobs we all do, what we charge for them and ask yourself whether someone in your client base doesn't think you have him ripped off for what you do...

 

nuff said...

 

Finman

[Offroad Gary]

discussion run its course now i think, some varied opinions, re deliverables and vfm. sort of drifted away from the original question, onto the merits of sort of discussion (as these things sometimes do).

 

lessons learned/advice to those considering pro load development.

 

1. understand what you want/expect

2. understand what is offered/promised

3. be happy with cost you are paying

4. dont walk away with less than (1&2), speak up or shut up

5. better to do it yourself (subject to having time, skill and place to do it) its fun and you know its done properly.

 

now i just look forward to recieving my semi custom (different smith, same calibre 6.5x47l, barrell make and profile, same reamer spec (no neck turn), different action, similar stock), and i'm really hoping that my cheap and cheerfull re-barrel P1sses all over his £4k custom - accuracy wise. it will put a big cheap smile on my face.... i might even pinch his load data to save myself 1/2 hours development time!

[terryh]

Interesting post.

 

I personnaly feel that loading is all part of 'it' when it comes to rifle shooting - but can also see that either the 'urge' or time might be unavailable in others.

 

A smith I've used a couple of times guarantees his rifles to be 0.5moa with 'match quality ammunition' and specifies the make for 308s (which is I suppose easy) but I also know he does not spend lots of time developing loads for the other cartidges he chambers for, he just uses a 'good' load that works in all rifles (and lets you know it FOC).

 

Sometimes I wonder if we are picking the fly *hit out of the pepper when it comes to hand loading?

 

Terry