Annealeeze Annealing Machine Group Buy

[John MH]

Have any of you found it necessary to anneal virgin brass (Lapua) or do you start annealing after the first firing?

 

No, just after 1st and subsequent firings.

 

Yes George.

 

What switched me on to annealing was this.

 

My first 6.5 x 47 was a big , heavy barrelled gun that was a genuine 1/4" gun. I was running 300 cases with it and after 3 firings the accuracy went south. The groups opened up to 3/4" and i was at a loss why. I scrubbed the barrel etc and could not get the accuracy back.

 

I then decided to anneal 30 cases with a cordless driver, socket and gas torch. Duly reloaded, i tested and got the 1/4" gun back by simply annealing the brass. Thus the contraption pictured above was born.

 

That was conclusive for me, and now I anneal as part of the case prep every time.

 

It gives you that "new brass" feel and accuracy....but every firing, and you know the old saying...."nothing shoots like new brass"

 

I read an american had done a longevity test on either a 30-06 or .300WM case by firing it, then annealing, then firing it again etc. He gave up at 50 reloads.

 

Not done any testing but I anneal all my cases after every firing using the same kit as Dave, its another variable not to worry about.

[DaveT]

I made this years ago with hand tools basically. Its a windscreen motor and a couple of torches from B +Q.

 

Not difficult . If you want something badly enough....you improvise.

 

I,m glad you guys are able to get them , as annealing makes a fair difference.

 

Thanks to Daves generosity I am the new owner of his old annealed.......still working a treat!

[Ronin]

My cordless screwdriver and socket works a treat .......

 

 

Best twenty quid ever spent..

[gbal]

Yes George.

 

What switched me on to annealing was this.

 

My first 6.5 x 47 was a big , heavy barrelled gun that was a genuine 1/4" gun. I was running 300 cases with it and after 3 firings the accuracy went south. The groups opened up to 3/4" and i was at a loss why. I scrubbed the barrel etc and could not get the accuracy back.

 

I then decided to anneal 30 cases with a cordless driver, socket and gas torch. Duly reloaded, i tested and got the 1/4" gun back by simply annealing the brass. Thus the contraption pictured above was born.

 

That was conclusive for me, and now I anneal as part of the case prep every time.

 

It gives you that "new brass" feel and accuracy....but every firing, and you know the old saying...."nothing shoots like new brass"

 

I read an american had done a longevity test on either a 30-06 or .300WM case by firing it, then annealing, then firing it again etc. He gave up at 50 reloads.

Thanks ,Dave-that's the kind of experience/data that counts for something.

 

I think there is little doubt about annnealing extending the useful life of brass-how often this needs doing seems less clear,but 'every time' (well,up to 49 anyhow!) seems supported...it won't of course cure the primer pocket expansion issue,that seems to snooker most hot loaded ammo-at least in the fclass category.

Add in the varied views on short range Bench Resters,with smaller capacy cases,and it's possible that annealing may offer differential advantages in retaining precision for smaller/larger capacity cases...four/five (?more) firings of say 6PPC don't usually show dramatic loss of accuracy,though .25 to.26 might be missed....but not .25 to .75 ( .75 it just doesn't happen).

One snag in getting data may be that small variations in precision may well get lost in the 'noise' of other factors in longer range shooting (wind!).

Nonetheless,done properly,the gains in longeivity alone may be cost effective-though 'Giraud' level investment will be a long term payback proposition for most shooters-depends too on how much your brass costs ! But let's not go there. Shooting isn't all

rational,nor,thankfully,strictly rationed.

 

gbal

[The Gun Pimp]

Add in the varied views on short range Bench Resters,with smaller capacity cases and it's possible that annealing may offer differential advantages in retaining precision for smaller/larger capacity cases...four/five (?more) firings of say 6PPC don't usually show dramatic loss of accuracy,though .25 to.26 might be missed....but not .25 to .75 ( .75 it just doesn't happen).

 

gbal

To be honest George, I will prep about 15 cases for a full season of 6PPC benchrest - they will be fired 5 or 6 times in every match and there are six matches in a season so that's at least 30 firings.

 

But, I'm still a believer in 'nothing shoots like new brass' and for a big comp - like the Worlds - it'd be new brass. But, we need to fire a case 3 or 4 times before it's considered to be 'competition ready'.

 

Course our necks are only 8 or 9 thou. thick and will only expand a thou on firing so we just don't 'work' the brass like you would in a factory chamber.

 

As a matter of interest, Bruce Lenton (mole-e30) shot the smallest 5-shot group ever shot in the UK at 1000yd - 2.6 inches - be interesting to know how many times the brass had been fired and if annealed. Unfortunately, Bruce was using his Heavy Gun to do this so it doesn't count as a record.

[gbal]

Vince,many thanks-more great reliable data. How much the brass is worked may well be THE variable...

 

Interesting that it seems,there is no brass as good as "three or four times fired brass",rather than virgin new...it'll be fire formed to precise chamber,presumably...any duffs eliminated...

 

OK,what we need now is data from larger case firings with/without annealing ,maybe at hot/not hot velocities,and 'tight neck' /not chambers.Plenty such -but issue will be what is the disperser at distance-too many variables,unless there is same session annealed/not firings...

 

And about the same for small brass- something like 6PPC in match tight neck-though we have Vince's extensive evidence here-and 6PPC in factory chambers (under Bench Rest conditions,for comparability-and measurement)),again if possible,with/without annealing.I'm thinking,6PPC Sakos were used...as I recall few would hold all 5 shots consistently-plenty good 3/4 shooters...but did annealing help?)

Then there is Darren Cymru's truly Accuracy international in 6.5 X100y BR.....exceptions never prove rules,but can disprove them... asitting,yes but was it also annealing !....??

 

g

[John MH]

Too many variables to accommodate there, if you think it makes better ammo for you it will as shooting is 95% about what goes on in your head. If you don't think it will have any positive effect don't do it unless you have a niggling feeling that you might be missing out.

[gbal]

Maybe,John,but not at all undo-able.

If we give up at mild complexity,the we'd have the SNP version of a naval deterent force:

 

Sean Connery in a kayak with a spear.

OK-maybe budget balancing/uprating in 2020 to an to an Inuit Indian in a kayak with a 222. :-)

 

For for every complex problem, there are a finite number of simple solutions,all of which are wrong.

AS a psychologist,I'm not sure that '95%' in the mind is quite accurate-legitimate confidence is a positive,but misplaced confidence can be a menace.

Good luck with sorting those out-you tend to get something like my 'what we need now' set.

 

But are these really difficult-we probaby have the data somewhere-just as in Dave and VInce's reports-and there is no real problem in isolating the others and getting answers.

Thus eg I shoot tight neck 6PPC brass until it losses precision,anneal it and retest...

I do the same with a factory 6PPC

And a club level 308 (or whatever similar) tight neck,then factory.

And an F class level 7mm,ditto.

Nothing complex,but that will take a little time-maybe a day each?and be in itself a tad boring.

My point is more that it's probably been done,maybe not with the same motivatio (to test annealing).

Dave and Vince have taken us half way-that leaves the above for the seriously interested. ("does my Tikka 223 nead annealing?"-but there are quite a few in that kind of category.

F class will anneal anyhow-as everyne else does,so don't risk not annealing.)

 

Heck,I could do it,but I don't want to decide to get an anealing machine until I have the data! Catch 22-or 95% cognitive dissonance. :-)

 

g

 

ps When Joseph Heller was heckled by an interviewer "But why haven't you written a better book than Catch 22?",he just smiled and said "Well,nobody has." ;-)

[Laurie]

I've never seen results from a reasonably rigorous test. There is anecdotal evidence from GB F-Class Assoc league competitors of elevation consistency improvements in annealing each time before loading for 800-1,100 yard competition, though I personally suspect a degree of 'overkill' in doing it on each and every reloading.

 

Where we have an undoubted benefit is the arrival of some very strong case designs that will just go on and on more or less forever with stiff but not absolute maxium pressure loads - Lapua 308 Palma brass, Norma WSM brass, the new Norma 284 Win is promised to have been double-stamped to harden the case-head and web area further compared to older 6.5-284 cases that acquired a reputation for being 'soft' in that area.

 

As Vince, (The Gun Pimp) says, it was traditionally case-head expansion and the associated slack primer pockets that determined a lot of case life. People using stiff loads junked cases after four, five firings. If the primer pocket stays tight and you're now able to keep going, neck annealing becomes important and valuable both for ultimate case longevity (the neck will crack / split eventually this determined by brass alloy / fit in the chamber, amount of brass 'movement' in the resizing / firing cycle and neck tension on the seated bullet), and also on the issue of ammunition performance / consistency after multiple firings.

 

Annealing may also be useful to many people using reasonable or good quality brass in factory rifles and with standard (non-bushing) sizer dies. I once added up all the expansion / and resizing / expanding movement on .308 Win Lapua brass used in a factory FN SPR tactical rifle - a quality piece, there will be many with far slacker chambers - and it came to over 40 thou' total for the cycle. Necks will work-harden really quickly in that regime. I used to get 7-11 firings from Winchester 223 brass in a straight-pull AR and the necks split at that point although the back end was still alright and could have gone a bit further. By around loading 6-7, I'd be aware of different amounts of bullet seating tension / pressure on the press handle, so annealing would undoubtedly have improved ammunition consistency at some point prior to that and increased usable case life.

[mole-e30]

To be honest George, I will prep about 15 cases for a full season of 6PPC benchrest - they will be fired 5 or 6 times in every match and there are six matches in a season so that's at least 30 firings.

 

But, I'm still a believer in 'nothing shoots like new brass' and for a big comp - like the Worlds - it'd be new brass. But, we need to fire a case 3 or 4 times before it's considered to be 'competition ready'.

 

Course our necks are only 8 or 9 thou. thick and will only expand a thou on firing so we just don't 'work' the brass like you would in a factory chamber.

 

As a matter of interest, Bruce Lenton (mole-e30) shot the smallest 5-shot group ever shot in the UK at 1000yd - 2.6 inches - be interesting to know how many times the brass had been fired and if annealed. Unfortunately, Bruce was using his Heavy Gun to do this so it doesn't count as a record.

 

 

Hi Vince

 

My brass yesterday had been shot 3 times, with no annealing in the 6BR.

 

As an aside last shoot of the 2014 100 yard BR league I shot a teen agg 0.186" (5 x 5 shot groups) with a barrel that had done 2100 rounds in 6PPC and cases that had done in excess of 80 firings.

 

These PPC cases have never been annealed, 0.262" chamber and resizing using an 0.258" bushing.

 

What does that say?????

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

[Laurie]

 

 

As an aside last shoot of the 2014 100 yard BR league I shot a teen agg 0.186" (5 x 5 shot groups) with a barrel that had done 2100 rounds in 6PPC and cases that had done in excess of 80 firings.

 

These PPC cases have never been annealed, 0.262" chamber and resizing using an 0.258" bushing.

 

What does that say?????

 

 

 

 

The benefits of a really close brass to chamber fit, very thin necks, very high quality Lapua brass to start with, and a sizing / firing expansion regime of some 4-5 thou total movement works is what it says to me. (Also, if you're loading on the firing point, case-necks are only under tension from holding bullets for minutes before firing, not sitting day, weeks, or even months in the ammunition cabinet awaiting use.)

 

 

................... or on the other hand, maybe it (the group) was a complete fluke. (No, I don't mean that - just joking! )

[John MH]

My cases get worked a lot, they are not shot in a tight necked chamber nor are the cases thin walled. As most of my shooting is rapid and snap practices the cases are F/L resized and shoulder bumped every time as I want absolute chambering reliability from shot to shot, neck tension is sufficient to prevent bullet jump in the magazine. Being well worked annealing makes a difference to case life and the felt bullet seating pressure between cases is consistent, it cannot be a bad thing.

 

The machine I use for annealing is the same as Baldie's, it was designed by an American High Power shooter who shoots rapid fire practices with an AR and whose brass also gets worked hard. If you don't shoot a large volume of brass or required easy and reliable chambering then you may not want to anneal your brass, if you have lots of brass (enough to get you through a whole season) you probably don't need to.

[gbal]

Laurie thanks,and Bruce and John for more highly relevant data.

It begins to pull together,as Laurie summarises.

Not for the first time the absolurtely legitimate experience from differnt disciplines helps sort out the somewhat complex interactional factors,because these disciplines-and the shooting tolerances/practices/gear /pressures etc etc that go with each -can differ,as can the corresponding benefits of annealing.

The new extra as Laurie clarifies is 'better brass'-whereas once the primer pockets were the weak point,going usually before brass worked necks in hard shot non tight neck case,webbibg is now better and primer pockets last longer,so it is more sensible than ever to anneal necks,for longer life.There seems no loss of accuaracy,and maybe some gains,perhaps frm more consistent bullet grip. Much less of this applies to Bench Rest with tight precise chambers and tight necks,working brass minimally- with small cases like 6PPC,where there may well be no gains from annealing at all,though it probably does no harm either (but use 'settled' fired brass for optimum competition use).

Annealing improves case life-the better the rest of the case (as Laurie/new Norma etc),the more the gain from annealing (because the primer pocket is not such a weak spot anymore). Varminters and 'club' shooters will be somewhere in between,allowing for cartridge and rifle specs, and loading pressures etc.

Hooray-it is a little complex,but everyone was right,and each can do his Micawber calculations on the economics,but doesn't have to;and 'annealing/not' is another box ticked more on merit,rather than by default-often the best outcome. :-)

g

[andybrock]

Just had a confirmation email that it's on it's way. In the hands of customs now!

[AnthonyR]

Mine is on its way as well.

[The Gun Pimp]

Just a few more thoughts on annealing.

 

OK - when brass is fired too many times what happens?

 

Primer-pockets go slack.

Base swells so that it won't fit the shell-holder.

Brass work-hardens so that it doesn't size back properly - bolt difficult to close/open.

Splits might appear in the neck area.

Hard springy brass doesn't help neck-tension consistency.

 

Of these five - how many are corrected with annealing?

[gbal]

I dont think annealing can cure many of Vince's five chronic conditions-most are terminal,save necks.

 

However,from the evidence so far,there seems a fair probability that annealing may give more firings before these symptoms appear...how many more seems very variable (and of course also dependent on the over pressures in hot loads.

 

The economics of annealing are not clear cut if substantial £ is 'invested' in the equipment-for some having it done commercially may be as/more cost effective,if less convenient.Roughly speaking,£300 would get 2000 annealings (based on £15 per 100 cases). I can't even begin to factor in repairs etc to anealing machine,or running costs,so that is 2000 anneals without these costs,and does not include shipping costs,nor on the balancing postage for the brass sent off,but does include postage return....)

Go figure,literally....though it's not all about costs. £300 -400 would also buy a fair bit of new brass....,

and 'wastage rates" as per Vince's 5 are likely to vary a lot-I doubt if I've lost more than a handful of cases to these problems in many years of reloading...,mostly Hornet.Hot loading 1000y competition brass would be quite different (the newer brass may give longer pocket life).

 

Different shooters might legitimately come to different conclusions-as they do on many aspects of shooting;some such might be rational-but don't have to be....... :-)

gbal

[MJR]

TGP, are the first two on the list not signs of maximum or even over pressure loads?

I would have thought done properly annealing would adress the remaining three?

 

I am not a bench rest shooter and as such I'm not familiar with reloading on the line but I can appreciate the minimal amount of neck movement when cases are shot in a tight neck chamber and resized with neck bushings could render annealing redundant. But I know brass, I work with it very regularly and you cannot work soften it only work harden it. I would have thought that any movement of the case neck however small would eventually lead to work hardening. This may not happen as quickly with a tight neck chamber and bushing dies as it would in a factory chamber and fl dies. I think I read somewhere ( If I remember correctly another excellent article by Laurie) that a neck may be moved up to 0.040" in a complete fire/reload cycle in a factory chamber, obviously less in a custom chamber and possibly even less in a tight neck benchrest number. But it the brass for example moves 0.008" in the tight neck bench rest fire/reload cycle then after five firings it's seen equivalent movement to one fire in a factory chamber. I would love to see some groups or experiments with benchrest cases that have been shot a number of times (20+) and then annealed to see if there is any benefit.

[gbal]

I'm sure Vince (TGP) will comment further,but he has already posted ( *30) that a season's PPC brass will see around 30 firings,without annealing. Given Vince's aggregates over the season,it's hard to see much deterioration,and top competitors would be unlikely to persevere with brass that is getting worse (the cost of another 20 or so new cases isn't high!).

Clearly this isn't a "before/after"annealing test,but it rather suggests that there won't be much discennible difference,and after 30 or so firings the brass is shooting pretty much the same as when new....

 

Of course,as said,this is for very minimal working of the brass,and it may not extend to other shooting regimes etc. But we have the data,and it seems quite suggestive....maybe a 'Texas Tunnel Test'-virtually eliminating human and environmental variables might pick up some small annealing effect,and maybe not,but that isn't going to happen.

gbal

 

gbal

[The Gun Pimp]

MJR - over-pressure? Well, too little pressure and the case won't even grip the chamber wall - as it should.

 

But, even at normal pressures, all these five will occur in time.

 

Most serious comp. shooters are looking to maximise on ballistics - yes?

 

Annealing will only help the last one - neck tension.

[The Gun Pimp]

Now here's a thing. European Benchrest Championships 2014 in France.

 

Prior to the shoot, I neck-turned 25 new Lapua 220 Russian cases, blew 'em out with pistol powder and fired them three times each with bullets.

 

When we arrived, it was two days of practice - I would say I shot getting on for 100 rounds - 20 groups - so that was another four firings.

 

Day one 100m - six 5-shot groups plus sighters - 50 to 60 rounds in total - so another two firings. MOA agg. 0.2525 inches - 9 firings in total

Day two 100m - same again - so another two firings - MOA agg. 0.3110 in. - 11 firings in total

Day three 200m - same again so another two firings - MOA agg. 0.2494 in. - 13 firings in total

Day four 200m - same again so another two firings - MOA agg. 0.3507 in. - 15 firings in total

 

OK - not scientific - and my agg. was poor on the final day but it rained heavily and I had one rather large group (rain-strike) which killed my agg. But, day three - using cases with 11-13 firings produced my best agg.

[John MH]

Won't stop me annealing my brass but its not for everyone, I definitely feel a difference on bullet seating.

 

Is there a difference on target? I think there is as my performance with my .260 but that may not be just down to annealing my brass.

[MrCetrizine]

I only started annealing a few months ago. Initially it was purely on .300 AAC brass after converting from .223 and that definitely makes a difference to accuracy. About 6 weeks ago a tried it on some 5x fired .223 and saw the odd fliers that typically start for me at 5 firings not happen. I don't know if that was the annealing or just coincidence but given how little time it takes me to anneal using just a propane torch, I'll continue doing it.

[andybrock]

Now here's a thing. European Benchrest Championships 2014 in France.

 

Prior to the shoot, I neck-turned 25 new Lapua 220 Russian cases, blew 'em out with pistol powder and fired them three times each with bullets.

 

When we arrived, it was two days of practice - I would say I shot getting on for 100 rounds - 20 groups - so that was another four firings.

 

Day one 100m - six 5-shot groups plus sighters - 50 to 60 rounds in total - so another two firings. MOA agg. 0.2525 inches - 9 firings in total

Day two 100m - same again - so another two firings - MOA agg. 0.3110 in. - 11 firings in total

Day three 200m - same again so another two firings - MOA agg. 0.2494 in. - 13 firings in total

Day four 200m - same again so another two firings - MOA agg. 0.3507 in. - 15 firings in total

 

OK - not scientific - and my agg. was poor on the final day but it rained heavily and I had one rather large group (rain-strike) which killed my agg. But, day three - using cases with 11-13 firings produced my best agg.

Just think what you could have shot if you had annealed

[The Gun Pimp]

Love it!