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Annealeeze Annealing Machine Group Buy


tisme

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Vince, Good shooting even without annealing But I'm not with you on annealing only helping neck tension. I've noticed as brass gets more firings and fl sizing them the shoulders definately getting 'springy' resulting in inconsistant resizing of the shoulder. After annealing this goes away, the shoulders bump consistently and there's far less variation in base to shoulder length. Are the annealed cases more accurate? I don't know but I resize the shoulder back 0.0015 to 0.002" and annealing definately stops the occasional bolt resistance felt on closing.

Split necks? Surely that's a result of either brittle brass or a defective case from new?

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Guys, this is indeed an interesting thread and discussion,with some informed comment and evidence.

 

There is at least a prime facie case that annealing may be differentially worthwhile/not depending on factors such as :

 

Calibre/cartridge

Loading/pressure

Tight neck or not

Maybe brass manufacture

Can/not be **rsed/cost-though that isn't a techy thing

 

Case life seems more likely to be extended than accuracy improved,but accuracy data from non PPC class is non existent so far.

We will just go on round in shallow spirals unless posts include some information on the above factors.

 

There seems a distinct reluctance generally-not just this thread-to consider INTERACTION effects-ie an effect is not universally present,or linear in effects even where it does occur. Another current example is in shortening barrels-this always reduces velocity (assuming barrel was not say 36 inches to begin with),but has greater reductions around 24 down to about 20 inches.....again ,variable a bit with calibre-but not constant-ie NOT always the same fps per barrel inch (same barrel,and even more so different calibres).

 

Much discussion is therefore less effective-if you like,it's not "apples to apples". Hence probably much of the apparent inconsistency..

 

...while on this soapbox,it applies also to informed/experienced views stated from only one undeclared shooting perspective- without considering whether it is likely to carry over to different disciplines....or at the least,saying what kind of shooting it is based on....

a simple example...Coriolanis effect ( earth's roration means the target has 'moved" by the time the bullet gets to where target was,is best not ignored for very long range,but it is irrelevant to 150y foxing. Most know that? But just the same kind of distinctions are worth considering for scopes,bullet designs,case preparation,etc etc etc..but tend to be ignored....one size probably does not fit all....

 

and maybe even meplet trimming.or annealing. Let's find out. There is a wealth of shooting knowledge on here,but let's have the detail and some evidence (as per Vince's data), and not be restricted to just (over) generalised opinion... :-)

g

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MJR - if annealing will 'soften' the shoulder, then yes, that's a big plus as it helps to 'run the gun'.

 

Split necks? Just got one on my Smack brass after 5 or 6 firings - tiny little split about 2mm long near to the base of the neck. Quite common if you over-use your brass.

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I sold my Benchsource annealer sometime ago now and have not annealed since. However I believe that neck tension is important especially at longer range shooting, so have decided to restart annealing and will do it the 'cheap' way with a B&Q nozzle and propane bottle with a cordless drill and annealing socket cup. Not sure if it will improve my groups at 1000yds, but it will make me feel better that I have done all I can.

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Laurie, you have an annealing device - could a test be in order? Compare accuracy with a small batch of cases fired a number of times with cases from the same batch then annealed.

 

 

I'm not sure how we'd do a meaningful test. I suspect that 100 or even 300 yard groups might not tell us much. Apart from the logistic issues of doing 1,000 yard group tests, the problem would be getting steady enough conditions to make comparisons meaningful. I suspect that this is another subject like bullet trimming and pointing - logic says it should help at long-ranges, but proving it and quantifying the results are difficult.

 

I'm setting my stall out now for the follow-up primer tests to the lasty series for Small Rifle models mostly using a 308 FTR rifle and Lapua Palma brass which will be annealed between each firing. It may be possible to do a comparison somewhere in this taking a Harrels portable press to Diggle to load / fire 5 cases repeatedly alongside without annealing to see if anything changes.

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What a fantastic discussion, very interesting indeed, I don't anneal any of my cases ??, 6.5x47 cases with at least 25 reloads have won me a lot of comps be it 100 yrds or 600yrds, but what I have found is that all of a sudden the cases would not hold the bullet, could turn it with my finger and thum?, now at the time this did have me puzzled did not know what the hell was going on?, not changed my reloading proceeder in any way, so I bought 100 new cases and low and behold bullets were tight in the cases again, that's when the penny dropped, lost a few cases to loose primer pocket, never in the last six years have I had a split neck,,

Case necks need annealing,,

As John as pointed out it seems to be the only way to maintain consistent neck tension and accuracy, so it seems that it is well worth doing and there is always the feel better syndrome, gball you should understand this better than most,,,

Case over 100£££ per 100 it starts to get expensive so I might even think about annealing,,

 

The only thing that has stopped me in the past is that I understand that it has to be done properly or you can ruin your cases??

Just my 2cents worth George,

Darrel

The Welsh devision of Ai

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Darrel,glad you're finding this annealing discussuon a positive one-much of that comes from inputs from good shooters like yourself,and some analysis.

You report much competition success with 6.5x47,in both 100 and 600y matches-with 25 firings.

This tends to suggest accuracy was maintained,as you kept winning and don't report a steady deterioration in groups.

But then there was a sudden catastrophic loss of neck tension,rendering the cases unuseable-as they couldn't be reloaded (not from poor accuracy per se). That rather fits other reports-with larger capacity cases,at least,and in non custom tight neck and close fitting chambers,necks do stretch-and that is where annealing can restore such cases (no-one yet has really given measured accuracy improvemnts at this point-but extending case life seems to be a benefit-perhaps limited,as nothing can reverse the slow enlarging of primer pockets with especially somewhat hot loading.

What would have been valuable would have beeen annealing your now loose neck cases,and reloading them again-presumaably with adequate neck tension and measuring them for accuracy-which you would expecy to be where it was before the necks went (which is also where it was -probably?-for most/all the 25 firings. We don't have that info-yet?

New cases ,of course loaded fine. SAd it several times,but I'll repeat: annealing is very likely to increase the useable life of brass-most of the positive evidence is for the larger caes (6PPC and the like might also benefit,but it seems that class are seldom annealed,and sso far never reported-though Vince has 25 or so firings without apparent dererioraion,including accuracy) I'll repeat again,it would be unwise to generalise one way or the other on accuracy as yet. Maybe savvy reloaders notice any neck tension loosening and simply discard such cases-though some must anneal them-the snag is that if it was only bullet retention that alerted them,then accuracy was presumably not (much?) reduced,so would not be noticed-nor improvement looked for (though if it was measureably improved,it is likely to be noticed.) Or is it...

But 'accuracy' at distances beyond the 'small PPC case' ranges is vulnerable to so many other conditions,it's not likely quite small deteriorations would be noticed among all the other noise-this seriously handicaps careful testing for improvements (changes,I should say) in accuracy after annealing-a key point Laurie also raises in contemplating a more controlled before/after test.

 

So, we have no evidence at all that annealing reduces case life (taking on board of course that it is done properly) ,and growing evidence that it can extend useable case life,especially in larger/hot cases-until pockets go (and newer brass might delay the pockets,too....): if so it's probably worth doing.

Accuracy restoration, remains at best,not yet proven...and will be much more difficult to establish at distance. There are few,if any,reports of a gradual drift in accuracy at distance; at short range,some reports suggest the contrary at least to 20 + reloads. Still provisional-but it would not be surprising if some effect were discerned- but consistency (often the key to performance) may well be preserved-any effect of say ten firings will be fairly consistent over the brass-and accuracy may be 'tolerant' of that,at least within what can be observed/attributed to neck stretching (see above-maybe not much?)

 

The 'feel good' factor is welcome,of course,but it isn't quite that simple- we can look into it another time-shooting is/is not 85% 'mental'-discuss! But let's sort annealing first,and get some 'feelgood' from such progress. ;-)

 

g

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Accuracy per se might be difficult to measure at the longer ranges but I would think you might get some meaningful results by measuring and comparing ES over the chronograph. Velocity relates fairly well to vertical dispersion at long range and might add useful data.

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Accuracy per se might be difficult to measure at the longer ranges but I would think you might get some meaningful results by measuring and comparing ES over the chronograph. Velocity relates fairly well to vertical dispersion at long range and might add useful data.

 

That's what I have in mind Allan. The primer tests are basically ES/SD related not group, so everything will be fired with a Magentospeed attached. The annealed / not annealed would be tacked onto the back of whatever primer combination looks best to see if the ES worsens over a series of firings.

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Darrel, that's interesting that your cases got to a point where they wouldn't actually grip the bullet. Did you experience any difficulty in maintaining consistent base to shoulder length at all?

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Accuracy per se might be difficult to measure at the longer ranges but I would think you might get some meaningful results by measuring and comparing ES over the chronograph. Velocity relates fairly well to vertical dispersion at long range and might add useful data.

Allan,as Laurie-SD-statistically preferable-and ES might well be the realisable measure-but of course it's not accuracy per se-and rather small (thankfully,overall!): Elevation effect (on 6mm 80g @300fps,as example) of 10 fps muzzle change is 0.16 inches at 300y,which in itself is close to measuring tolerances,given all the other disperser factors.

That noted,of course any well collated data specifically on accuracy effects would be verywellcome indeed.

 

Of course,the effect may well be considerably more than 10 fps,and if so might begin to interest even medium range varminters.

Long Range shooters sensibly consider adopting any possible improvement-including 'feeling good'.

g

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just got back to the UK last night expecting to find a nice big box to open, only to find a letter from PorcelFarce requesting £56 customs fees... :-(

Oh well, I'll be able to play with it next week :-)

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Just got back to the UK last night expecting to find a nice big box to open, only to find a letter from PorcelFarce requesting £56 customs fees... :-(

Oh well, I'll be able to play with it next week :-)

I was tracking mine and I thought it had managed to sneak through customs when its status changed to "out to local delivery office" unfortunately it must have been at this point PF got their hands on it :(.... once you get it you'll be very pleased with it.

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