.22 Grendel

[Furyan]

Anybody use one in the UK for vermin fox ?

Quite interested in this but any Pros / cons out there. Feed issues

Thank you 

[Andrew]

There is plenty on the internet about this cartridge. My only concern would be getting 6.5 Grendel brass to neck down. Hard to come by even here in the States. Feeding is a whole nuther issue. It would depenmd on the gun. A single stack mag like a CZ would be fine. ~ Andrew

[Furyan]

Thank you , i will continue looking for a small case round .

Just looking at 20Br as well.

[AnthonyR]

I have a 20BR, built on a Sako 75 action by Neil McKillop.

It is very accurate with 39gr SBK but what it really needs is a high BC bullet in the 50gr area but nobody does them anymore. You will also not get the velocity that is banded about on the internet, I cannot get above 3800fps (24" barrel) with mine, I can get nearly 3700 out of my 20Tac which is much easier to load, feed, buy etc etc

Good 6BR brass is easy to find, forming the brass is a pain in the arse and must be done in several steps then it has to be neck turned as well, I did 200 and I am planing for this to last the barrel out. I am not expecting the barrel to last that long either

In the Sako 75 you need a special PPC mag which is very hard to come by and it still doesn't feed great, it feeds but you need to be firm with it. It only holds 4 rounds as well. A T3 or a custom action would be a better starting point IMO

The 20BR was an itch I wanted to sctrach but when this barrel is done it is going to be replaced with a fast 22 or 6mm where the bullet selection is much better 

[outlanda]

On 2/24/2022 at 4:23 PM, Furyan said:

Anybody use one in the UK for vermin fox ?

Quite interested in this but any Pros / cons out there. Feed issues

Thank you 

.22 grendel is an interesting cartridge; however the same performance is possible with 22-204 and 224 valkyrie not far off, with the possibility of a factory rifle and ammunition that might see the light of day here eventually. No experience of any of these so cannot offer any more help. I make do with a .223    

[Andrew]

A 22-204? That's getting silly. Kinda like a 30-7mm08.~Andrew

[GT3_richy]

Innit, surely thats just 222 rem mag/221 rem fb/223 rem etc ;s or 308W in ~Andrew's example...

[BlueBoy69]

The 22 Grendel still seems to be a bit of a wildcat cartridge at present, so all the normal caveats will apply with its use. It seems to be relativity easy to make cases at least, well depending on the route taken to create them.

Using the 6.5 Grendel case as the starting point and then directly or sequentially necking it down would seem to be the easier route. Certainly easier than going from a 7.62×39 case to 22 Grendel, which will take quite a few stages.

Going from the 220 Russian is another option, which may be a simple fire forming job with potential neck turning. It may however be something a little more complex, but potentially not as hard as going via the 7.62×39 case route.

Then also there's the option of using 22 PPC USA or 6 m PPC USA cases made by Norma to produce your 22 Grendel cases. The former similar to but potentially easier than the 220 Russian route, the latter a bit like the 6.5 Grendel option.

In most if not all cases, annealing will need to be done at the end, or between case forming stages. This is a potential pain in the bum if you don't have a tool to do this.

I guess it's all down to how much performance you want and how much hassle is involved in getting there. The 22 Grendel has got a bit more case capacity and hence performance than the next to identical case capacity and performance 22 PPC (22 PPC USA) and .224 Valkyrie cases, but the 22 BR matches, or trumps its performance by a small margin.

For simplicity and even more performance you could just go with a 22-250 chambered rifle, but with a fast twist. Another option for simplicity, but accepting slightly less performance, you could just go with a 22 PPC or PPC USA, and for the latter you can still buy Norma cases; as I know personally.

[outlanda]

13 hours ago, BlueBoy69 said:

The 22 Grendel still seems to be a bit of a wildcat cartridge at present, so all the normal caveats will apply with its use. It seems to be relativity easy to make cases at least, well depending on the route taken to create them.

Using the 6.5 Grendel case as the starting point and then directly or sequentially necking it down would seem to be the easier route. Certainly easier than going from a 7.62×39 case to 22 Grendel, which will take quite a few stages.

Going from the 220 Russian is another option, which may be a simple fire forming job with potential neck turning. It may however be something a little more complex, but potentially not as hard as going via the 7.62×39 case route.

Then also there's the option of using 22 PPC USA or 6 m PPC USA cases made by Norma to produce your 22 Grendel cases. The former similar to but potentially easier than the 220 Russian route, the latter a bit like the 6.5 Grendel option.

In most if not all cases, annealing will need to be done at the end, or between case forming stages. This is a potential pain in the bum if you don't have a tool to do this.

I guess it's all down to how much performance you want and how much hassle is involved in getting there. The 22 Grendel has got a bit more case capacity and hence performance than the next to identical case capacity and performance 22 PPC (22 PPC USA) and .224 Valkyrie cases, but the 22 BR matches, or trumps its performance by a small margin.

For simplicity and even more performance you could just go with a 22-250 chambered rifle, but with a fast twist. Another option for simplicity, but accepting slightly less performance, you could just go with a 22 PPC or PPC USA, and for the latter you can still buy Norma cases; as I know personally.

Next.

(This is turning into stalking directory)

[outlanda]

20 hours ago, Andrew said:

A 22-204? That's getting silly. Kinda like a 30-7mm08.~Andrew

Just another option for same performance using a different parent case to improve feeding from mag etc. Merely a suggestion  for reference. Trouble with any of these wildcats is finding a gunsmith with a reamer - and unlikely to happen.   

[outlanda]

After commenting yesterday i thought the new 6mm ARC might be a good alternative. Should be a  factory chambered option here may be one day and factory ammunition. Might be interesting in a .224 wildcat which somebody might do one day if not already. Disclaimer for my keyboard warrior friend. I don't have one and no experience of 6mm ARC - just researched and merely a suggestion.   

[BlueBoy69]

9 hours ago, outlanda said:

After commenting yesterday i thought the new 6mm ARC might be a good alternative. Should be a  factory chambered option here may be one day and factory ammunition. Might be interesting in a .224 wildcat which somebody might do one day if not already. Disclaimer for my keyboard warrior friend. I don't have one and no experience of 6mm ARC - just researched and merely a suggestion.   

Hmm, if you mean me by they the rather abusive term 'Keyboard Warrior', which I take it you do by the earlier "(This is turning into stalking directory)" comment, that's not a very nice thing to say. I am not a  'Keyboard Warrior' and I think the term you mean is 'Keyboard Jockey', which I'm not either. Whatever your ended meaning both are rude as I am just someone passing on information gleaned over almost a lifetime of being a shooter and who has been a worker in the defence or related industries for all of their working life? I know a lot about the subject, I write about it (small arms, ballistics, weapons technology, etc.) and related subjects every working day and often non-working days. I'm sorry if that may offend your sensibilities, but that's how it is. How about trying to be a little more non-abusive, non-critical and opinionated.

As the the 6 mm ARC, it's essentially a 6 mm PPC with the shoulder blow forwards about 35 thousands of an inch to get a little more powder capacity. It seems a pokey round when loaded to bolt action pressure levels (60 kPSI), but its not too common and as such may be hard to get now and into the future. The 6 mm PPC family would provide very similar, but slightly lesser ballistics.

My 'advice' to the original thread poster would be unless you want to fiddle around making cases, which I don't really like doing myself actually, just get something widely commercially available that fits the ballistics you require. If you want something more exotic, be aware of the caveats previously mentioned.

[terryh]

Surely a 22-204 is just putting a 204 back to its parent case the 222 Magnum?
 

Seems to me that some of the time it appears to be a cartridge finding a solution finding a problem?
 

it is ‘nice’ to try new stuff but if there are existing proven cartridges already doing the job then some of the efforts are a bit unnecessary.

Just a thought

[Elwood]

All good info here, but lets keep it civil please. I'm really not interested in he said, I said, he said, it will just get deleted.

I think it's great to experiment and you can certainly learn a lot, like I did with the 6mm Crusader. Certainly a lot of work case forming but I enjoyed the learning process and the end result was amazing. 

However as others have said, there are probably better options for a small case cartridge, my two choices would be the 22BR or 20BR, there's plenty of load data, plenty of components and plenty of people with experience of the calibers. 

[Furyan]

Thank you all think either the 22BR OR THE 20BR be better ill look into this further .

[outlanda]

9 hours ago, terryh said:

Surely a 22-204 is just putting a 204 back to its parent case the 222 Magnum?
 

Seems to me that some of the time it appears to be a cartridge finding a solution finding a problem?
 

it is ‘nice’ to try new stuff but if there are existing proven cartridges already doing the job then some of the efforts are a bit unnecessary.

Just a thought

Hello Terry

Hope all is well. My understanding is the .222 magnum is obsolete and brass not available. >204 ruger brass is and very easy to neck up to .224 with redding type s die. The case is slightly larger offering a bit more capacity and higher performance. Recently it has been hijacked and renamed 22 terminator. With a 1:7 or 1:8 twist and 80gr-90gr bullets it will perform the same as the .22 grendel with same bullets. The smaller bolt face and .204 ruger cartridge make it a friendly cartridge, it will feed from mags no problems and components easy to obtain. Early on it did well as a wildcat benchrest in US and recently pushed further. The major downfall is the reamer no one has one, so the build never got off the ground. Then looking at other options as mentioned  plus .223AI which is not so user friendly the conclusion is to just go with factory rifle in .223, long fast twist barrel, heavy bullets and full cases - make do as its not far away. A lot of pain for small gain.

Thanks

Steve        

[GT3_richy]

5 hours ago, outlanda said:

My understanding is the .222 magnum is obsolete and brass not available. >204 ruger brass is and very easy to neck up to .224 with redding type s die. The case is slightly larger     

Nosler still make 222 rem mag brass, possibly others who also make 204R - but as you say, easy to form from readily available 204 stuff. Must be able to get reamers from somewhere? 

[terryh]

ARC can make you a reamer, UK based and to date I’ve had 2 very specific, very different  reamers from them and been pleased with results.

[david harvey]

The 22-204 seems quite poplar in the use 1-1.5 grains of extra powder over the normal 223 roughly the same as the 223Ai without the fed problems, dies its only a matter of changing the guts to the proper bushings 80gr smk 3075 24 inch barrel  80 gr 3115 26 inch barrel that's  a nice increase like terryh  says a reamer is not a problem.

  

[Woodlander]

.22 br seems the obvious choice, benchrest accuracy with velocity approaching that of the .22-250, all components readily available 

[outlanda]

Thank you for reamer suggestions. I believed possibly wrongly that i am not allowed to purchase or own the reamer. And since the idea of this project, interest has gone for me with any wildcats and i don't need the extra performance and pain anymore.

I am puzzled and do have a question though.

When comparing a wildcat to a 22-250 why not just have a 22-250. It will be using about same amount of powder, similar barrel lengths, same noise for same velocity, same barrel life, as long as a 5 round magazine is enough for intended purpose. Only downside for factory rifles is fast twist barrels for heavy bullets so still a costly custom.

Thanks

Steve 

[Laurie]

22-250 Rem and .22 Grendel aren't at all comparable. The 22-250 case holds around 43.5gn water; my 6.5G Lapua cases hold 36.6, so that'll be 36gn or less after necking down. Barrel life and several other things are determined or at the least heavily influenced by the case capacity to bore area ratio. (Hence the commonly used but rarely defined expression about some large case cartridges as being 'over bore capacity'.)

22-250's ratio is 1,104;  22G considerably lower at 913 (224 bore area is 0.0394 sq inches).

At 1,100 you're getting into high capacity to bore ratio values and reduced barrel life. 1,100 exceeds the ratios for the 6XC, 300WSM, 284 Win and is only a little below that of the 6mm Creedmoor. Canadian sling and F-Class prone competitors have traditionally made much more use of 22-cal centrefires than we do (going back to the Canadian equivalent of the MoD giving the DCRA free supplies of 5.56 Nato ammunition long after this practice stopped here). In the early days of F-Class, 22-250 with a faster twist barrel and longer throat loaded with 80gn bullets was 'in' for a while in Canada, but not for long with a barrel accuracy life of 900-1,000 rounds.

SAAMI MAP for the 22-250 Rem is a very healthy (or unhealthy for barrel throats) 65,000 psi - it is a true 'pocket magnum'. Typical 55gn bullet maximum powder charges run at 35-40gn; you can't get anywhere close to that amount physically into a Grendel case and maximum charges are typically 25-28gn, often compressed at the top end of that range. Likely a bit more in Robert Whitley's 'improved' wildcats.

The real differences between the pair - and why the Grendel case is so popular in the US in both factory and wildcat versions - are their external dimensions. With a 0.473" diameter case-head and SAAMI COAL of 2.350 (but considerably longer in heavy bullet / custom barrel form), the 22-250 needs a conventional short-action bolt-action, or an AR-10 based gas gun. The Grendel and its variants are designed to fit in the AR-15 or other small gas-gun equivalents. The .22G wildcats give way, way more performance than the original 223 Rem in this type of rifle. This is despite the Grendel's 0.441" dia case-head really pushing the envelope on the AR-15 bolt design and hence its chamber pressures having to be severely restricted. (52,000 psi SAAMI, another 6,000 psi for us in CIP.)

Since bolt-actions with 0.441" dia. bolt-faces are rare, or were as Savage, CZ, and Howa all now provide models for the Grendel and/or 6ARC, the .22BR is a simpler, easier and cheaper route to a high-performance wildcat in the calibre. It is not such a step up from the Grendel case as most people think though. The BR case capacity is a tad under 38gn in 6mm form, so will be less than 2gn greater water capacity than the Grendel when necked-down to 22. 22BR is nothing like as 'over-bore' as 22-250, but has more than enough capacity to give excellent performance. 

  

  

   

[Furyan]

Thank you Laurie

[outlanda]

21 hours ago, Laurie said:

22-250 Rem and .22 Grendel aren't at all comparable. The 22-250 case holds around 43.5gn water; my 6.5G Lapua cases hold 36.6, so that'll be 36gn or less after necking down. Barrel life and several other things are determined or at the least heavily influenced by the case capacity to bore area ratio. (Hence the commonly used but rarely defined expression about some large case cartridges as being 'over bore capacity'.)

22-250's ratio is 1,104;  22G considerably lower at 913 (224 bore area is 0.0394 sq inches).

At 1,100 you're getting into high capacity to bore ratio values and reduced barrel life. 1,100 exceeds the ratios for the 6XC, 300WSM, 284 Win and is only a little below that of the 6mm Creedmoor. Canadian sling and F-Class prone competitors have traditionally made much more use of 22-cal centrefires than we do (going back to the Canadian equivalent of the MoD giving the DCRA free supplies of 5.56 Nato ammunition long after this practice stopped here). In the early days of F-Class, 22-250 with a faster twist barrel and longer throat loaded with 80gn bullets was 'in' for a while in Canada, but not for long with a barrel accuracy life of 900-1,000 rounds.

SAAMI MAP for the 22-250 Rem is a very healthy (or unhealthy for barrel throats) 65,000 psi - it is a true 'pocket magnum'. Typical 55gn bullet maximum powder charges run at 35-40gn; you can't get anywhere close to that amount physically into a Grendel case and maximum charges are typically 25-28gn, often compressed at the top end of that range. Likely a bit more in Robert Whitley's 'improved' wildcats.

The real differences between the pair - and why the Grendel case is so popular in the US in both factory and wildcat versions - are their external dimensions. With a 0.473" diameter case-head and SAAMI COAL of 2.350 (but considerably longer in heavy bullet / custom barrel form), the 22-250 needs a conventional short-action bolt-action, or an AR-10 based gas gun. The Grendel and its variants are designed to fit in the AR-15 or other small gas-gun equivalents. The .22G wildcats give way, way more performance than the original 223 Rem in this type of rifle. This is despite the Grendel's 0.441" dia case-head really pushing the envelope on the AR-15 bolt design and hence its chamber pressures having to be severely restricted. (52,000 psi SAAMI, another 6,000 psi for us in CIP.)

Since bolt-actions with 0.441" dia. bolt-faces are rare, or were as Savage, CZ, and Howa all now provide models for the Grendel and/or 6ARC, the .22BR is a simpler, easier and cheaper route to a high-performance wildcat in the calibre. It is not such a step up from the Grendel case as most people think though. The BR case capacity is a tad under 38gn in 6mm form, so will be less than 2gn greater water capacity than the Grendel when necked-down to 22. 22BR is nothing like as 'over-bore' as 22-250, but has more than enough capacity to give excellent performance. 

  

  

   

Thank you Laurie this has been very helpful and made it a lot clearer. I was thinking 22-250 v 22br which you have explained well. A 22-250 could have reduced powder and i remember using around 36gr and still fast but easier on the barrel - i just didn't know how it would compare and whether the wildcat build is worth it'   

Thanks

Steve    

[terryh]

Shameful plug: just selling a fast twist 22-250 which handles the heavier 80g bullets. Concur you could run ‘F-Class silly’ loads but sensible loads and still plenty accurate enough with acceptable barrel life.