First centrefire rifle, help needed.

[Aussie Foxer]

Hi guys,

well after having limited success on the foxes with the .17 HMR, it's limitations as well as my own conscious, it's time I bought my first centrefire. I've pretty much narrowed it down to two calibers, the 223 and the 204.

 

The availability and cost of the 223 rounds appeals, but so does the low recoil and flat shooting 204, it's just whether the extra cost of the rounds for the 204 is justified, I don't think I will bother reloading my own rounds for a while, if ever.

 

I want to buy a good quality rifle from the start, something like a Sako 85, or a Tikka super varmint, I like the adjustable comb on the Tikka, iv'e been spoilt you see because I shoot PCP air rifles as well, even the factory stocks on those are so scope dedicated when it comes to good, scope eye alignment, I guess I could have an adjustable comb If went for the Sako.

 

It's an absolute minefield out there with so many to choose from, any advise would be much appreciated. Barrel length, Stainless or blued, other makes, anything? Even a secondhand one and have a re-barrel and custom stock, ie, Manners, Boyds, GRS etc. Please Note I live in Australia so no point recommending English gunsmiths.We do have excellent gunsmiths here though.

 

Looking forward to you guys giving me some valuable info, go easy on the confusion.

 

Happy Easter.

 

Thanks at least for taking the time to read this post.

 

All the best, Neil.

[gbal]

Neil,your narrow down is fine. Try a few rifles for fit-most should be ok with a scope and appropriate height mounts.The PCP experience might not apply-consider too,your shooting position(s)-eg off the truck bonnet,or from inside,where manoevering matters much more.

Assuming you won't be taking (m)any shots beyond 250 yards,barrel length is not important,and very minor ballistics likewise.Nor do you need a custom expense rifle...

How many shots do you expect per trip-there may not be much in the price difference,if you compare like with like (cheap usually means less effective)-so look at say the same quality with the same bulllet in 204 and 223-it is unlikely to be a big consideration.

Availability might be a local issue-but should not be if you buy say 100+ at a time.

Sako and Tikka are very competent rifles-and used ones (you must test fire first) can be an excellent buy,at 1/3-1/2 price ( some consider the earlier models better rifles anyhow).

Standard specs-you might find the nice to look at stainless does you no favours if its heavier-and in the dark,who cares....let me repeat,it's all about the handling for you. Box mag is useful. You won't need repeated shot barrel stability,but if a varmint barrel feels fine,go for it.

Recoil-and more relevant-muzzle jump -will be less on the 204,some like that,understandably. (but allow for rifle weight-as ever,compare like with like....over ridden only by 'if you like it,buy it',but base on function,not irrelevancies ('lots of bells/whistles' to add later- you don't shoot fox with bells and whistles. You can tweak eye line up with a cheap cheek piece if you must.

Note,I'm by no means agin custom rigs,but you can buy an awful lot of cartridges for the price of pimping a rifle-and it's the cartridge that does the work,not the pimp.Nor do you need sub 1/2 moa repeat groups.(T&S may deliver them,though).

OK,keep focussed on what the rig is for,and how it feels to you.Before you go down the 'custom' route,just price it up mentally-it won't shoot effectively any better under field conditions. Maybe next time.

Ditto ammo-you need a reliable source of one ammo the rifle likes,not dozens of choices it don't like so much-though there won't be much premium ammo that isn't at least acceptable-don't go cheap,just to save a few cents.

If at all possible,try a few rifles in 223 and 204,and see which cartridge you prefer to shoot- that after all,is what you are going to do.

If any S or T in either cartridge isn't effective at fox ranges,it probably is not the rifle/cartridge that needs upgrading... :-) Enjoy.

 

gbal

[Shuggy]

If you are considering rebarelling and are not into reloading, then why not find an old Tikka T3 and have it rebarreled in .223 Wylde? You can then buy a stack of affordable M193 5.56mm surplus ball, which will allow you to practice lots. You can then buy some 55gr VMax or similar for the actual foxes.

[rhhudson]

You wont go far wrong with either.... loads of factory ammunition for .223

[Andrew]

I would go for the .223.

I like the 204 but use the .223 quite a bit. Ammo is cheap, plentiful, and you will certainly find a load that is accurate.~Andrew

[banus02]

good afternoon aussie foxer,welcome to the forum.

[pork chop]

I really like the 204 and either one will kill foxes easily but as an out and out foxer of the to id go for the 223

[gunner]

If it were me and only for fox id use 223 and 50 grain bullets should pass thru shoulder and hit vital organs should the angle of shot need - a .204 32 or 40 grain bullet probably wouldn't make it thru expanding too much on impact , but would be fine on a front on bib shot etc ... But id just bear in mind the .204 bullets at faster speeds are more frangible ... Sako or tikka would be perfect

[Aussie Foxer]

Thanks fellas,

looks like the 223 is the go, an upgrade to my license came through on Thursday so now looking forward to shopping around for the rifle

Thanks banus for the warm welcome.

 

You guys know the next question don't you, Scope?

 

A fixed or variable? I have an 8.5-25 X 50 Leupy that I could put on, it has a fine duplex which is probably not suitable for lamping.

Should I go for heavy duplex, mill dot, illuminated ?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

All the best,

 

Neil

[banus02]

good evening,as for scope buy the best you can and I would say 3x or 4x at the most if your using a lamp. buy the best and cry once buy cheap and you will only spend more money later.good luck and enjoy what ever you buy

[duey]

I use a 8.5 x 25 x50 leup scope for foxing under a light force lamp and never had a problem

Usually have set at 15 power but do wind it down a touch when required so go with what

you've got and see how you get on

 

Ian

[Grum87]

I also use a Loopy 8.5-25x50 Mk4, and it's fine at night. I do tend to run it at 8.5x though.

[SWShooter]

Hi guys,

well after having limited success on the foxes with the .17 HMR, it's limitations as well as my own conscious, it's time I bought my first centrefire. I've pretty much narrowed it down to two calibers, the 223 and the 204.

 

The availability and cost of the 223 rounds appeals, but so does the low recoil and flat shooting 204, it's just whether the extra cost of the rounds for the 204 is justified, I don't think I will bother reloading my own rounds for a while, if ever.

 

I want to buy a good quality rifle from the start, something like a Sako 85, or a Tikka super varmint, I like the adjustable comb on the Tikka, iv'e been spoilt you see because I shoot PCP air rifles as well, even the factory stocks on those are so scope dedicated when it comes to good, scope eye alignment, I guess I could have an adjustable comb If went for the Sako.

 

It's an absolute minefield out there with so many to choose from, any advise would be much appreciated. Barrel length, Stainless or blued, other makes, anything? Even a secondhand one and have a re-barrel and custom stock, ie, Manners, Boyds, GRS etc. Please Note I live in Australia so no point recommending English gunsmiths.We do have excellent gunsmiths here though.

 

Looking forward to you guys giving me some valuable info, go easy on the confusion.

 

Happy Easter.

 

Thanks at least for taking the time to read this post.

 

All the best, Neil.

Aussie Foxer , are you in Aussie or the UK ?

[Aussie Foxer]

Hi SWShooter,

 

I live in Geelong, a small town in Victoria Australia, I am visiting the UK for 6 weeks in September.

 

Will attend the Midland game fair, stays include, The Midlands, Cornwall, Devon, Wales and then east Anglia before heading back to Oz again.

 

A couple of forum members have invited out for a nights Foxing which I really appreciate .

 

Regards,

 

Neil

[SWShooter]

Hi SWShooter,

 

I live in Geelong, a small town in Victoria Australia, I am visiting the UK for 6 weeks in September.

 

Will attend the Midland game fair, stays include, The Midlands, Cornwall, Devon, Wales and then east Anglia before heading back to Oz again.

 

A couple of forum members have invited out for a nights Foxing which I really appreciate .

 

Regards,

 

Neil

Reason I asked is you know as well as me if you travel around hunting and you are in some outback town and need some obscure ammo you may struggle , I`d normally say .204 for foxes but in you case 223 may be the way forward .Have fun

[Aussie Foxer]

I know what you mean.

 

Water and electricity is a problem let alone 204 shells.

 

Some towns don't know Elvis is dead.

[soother223]

Started off just like you with a hmr then got a 223! I've chopped and changed a bit since and now use a 204. Both do the job but if I'm honest I'd go for 223 if I were you!

As for a scope think of it this way... You may change Guns ,calibers but a decent scope could last you a lifetime! I think where I went wrong was to get a scope without target turrets! Thought I wouldn't evolve to that style of shooting... How wrong was I !! So maybe a nice ziess one where you could get them fitted at a later date if you choose.. That's if you don't get them from the off.

[SWShooter]

I know what you mean.

 

Water and electricity is a problem let alone 204 shells.

 

Some towns don't know Elvis is dead.

[banus02]

ELVIS IS DEAD ??????????

[Aussie Foxer]

Just google him banus02 I'm sure he is.

Haven't heard from him in a while.

[VarmLR]

.223 + Leup scope would be my choice too. I use a Leup VX3 LR 4.5-14 x 50 on my 223 and can't fault the combination. Very accurate and a fabulous vermin control outfit as well as a good target combo to 400 yds with that scope although I'd prefer the higher mag variant tbh. Plenty of ammo choice. I reload but lots of really good factory ammo available form most RFDs for 223. Can't see any real world advantage to the .204 except it's very much en-vogue at the minute. 223 is plenty flat enough shooting not to worry about MPBR until out past 230 yds on fox. (I zero mine to 200 yds and it's good for crosshairs on from zero to 230yds with fox). Good target rifle too.

[gbal]

SAAMI commercial ammo,24 inch barrel,10 mph wind,drop/drift with 200y zero: 100,200,300,400y

 

204 Ruger Hornady 40g vmax +.7/.8; 0/3.3; 4.3/7.8; 13.2/14.7

223 Hornady 40vmax +.9/1.2; 0/5 ; 5.5/11.9; 17.6/22.9

22250 Hornady 40vmax +.6/1 ; 0/4.4 ; 4.5/10.6; 14.3/20.4

243 Hornady 58vmax +.8/.9 ; 0/3.9 ; 5/9.2 ; 15.4/17.4

 

 

ft lb energy eg at 200y is: 204/ 855ftlb;223/677;22250/816; 243/1090 all 'adequate'

To 300y,there's about an inch between them in drop/drift; similarly other fox bullet weights/loadings;and thats well within individual rifle variation. "Flat" really isn't much of a differentiator-to 300y;less muzzle flip might be a little more noticeable,depending on mod etc.

 

gbal