Will_ Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Hi, I'm hoping to receive a FAC grant soon and the first thing I want to buy is a rifle for mid-long range (300 - 1000 yards in my mind) target shooting. I recently left the Army Reserve after 5 years and the one thing I was determined to continue was competitive shooting. I joined a club and went with them up to Bisley for a 1000 yard shoot. It's the first time I've fired anything apart from machine guns at that range and I absolutely loved it! It's taken quite a bit of begging, but negotiations eventually succeeded, and my wife has given me the all clear to buy a rifle, though money (and her tolerance for me spending it on guns) is still quite limited. I'm 99% sure I'll be going for a Remington 700 SPS Varmint in .308. It's what I've been shooting, and I've been shooting well with it. It seems like a good place to start, and I'd struggle to spend more at the moment and be able to afford a good scope. (A couple of guys from the club are selling Police chassis which I'm interested in, but money is fairly tight.) It's mainly advice on scopes that I'm after at the moment. I'm currently looking at the Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 EBR-1 which I've seen for £530, and the Sightron SIIISS 6-24x50 LRMOA which I've seen for £825. So far I've been using a Sightron SIII 6-24x50. I'm keen to hear what people think of these 2 scopes, of other options in that price range, of the cheapest places to buy scopes, and any other advice people can give me. I'm totally new to this and there is so much to learn! It's very exciting, but please bear with me if I ask some stupid questions. Thank you in advance, Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967spud Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 give us a bell will if you wnat a chat 01263 732740 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcampbellsmith Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 I tried and failed to buy a Vortex scope this Spring. They're off my shopping list for good. Regards JCS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Hi will and welcome , of the 2 scopes id steer clear of vortex pst/ebr more budget end as allot of em are going tlts up . Sightron are a much safer bet from what iv heard as i dont own one ! With the right model it should cater for all your needs . With the 8-32X model being perfect for 1K or less . Think they do higher mag too . Rifle wise , if it were me id buy a T3-Varmint over the R700 , and i own a blueprinted remmy . Tbh the std stocks on both are pretty shlt . You could get an boyds stock when funds allow . Cheapest laminated stocks im sure . Whatever you decide - good luck . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will_ Posted October 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Thanks for the replies. Gunner, at the risk of derailing my own thread, is a 20 inch barrel long enough for long range shooting? I think the Remington 700 Varmint has a 26 inch barrel, but the Tikka T3 Varmints I looked at only had a 20 inch barrel. I'm sure there's a lot more involved than barrel length but I wasn't sure if the shorter barrels could handle longer distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Will im sure a 20" would be fine although a longer barrel is more desirable , you may only loose 125 fps - soo . Im probably not the best to advise on 1K target and barrel lenth . More dedicated target boys would be better to advise on this mate . On caliber , are there any other choices than 308 ? Id personnely be thinking 7-08 or some 6.5 for slightly better ballistics - just a thought . Supose it depends what you can get caliber wise and if reloading or not . Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will_ Posted October 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 On caliber , are there any other choices than 308 ? Id personnely be thinking 7-08 or some 6.5 for slightly better ballistics - just a thought . Supose it depends what you can get caliber wise and if reloading or not . Cheers I was mainly going for .308 because it seemed like a good balance between range and relatively low cost. I'm also a sucker for sticking with what I know. .308 is the only calibre I've fired long range. Eventually I hope to be reloading. I might start a couple of threads requesting advice on calibre and rifles but I can imagine opening a can of worms! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannywayoflife Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Personally I would go Sightron over the vortex they just work. On barrel length if you reload it's not really an issue but if your only using factory ammo you'll need a longer than 20" barrel. I've shot 1000 with my dta 16" barrel but that's with some rather odd 208 grain hand loads and not your run of the mill factory ammo. Also look at the howa's there far better than a Remington for the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20series Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Sightron S111 8-32x56 with MOA reticle,will fulfill your needs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Will, The Sightron 8-32 is a fine scope,and used by LR shooters.Probably best option for a new scope in this price range.Many LR shooters use Night Force 12-42 scopes,with fine reticule option.You should be able to get one of these used for a similar price.V good. I understand your choice of cartridge.The 308 is a fine all round,jack of most trades. It is used for 1000y by the TR shooters (because they have to-not because it's the best,by any means. It is getting a little short of puff by 1000,and losing another 125 ish fps to a short barrel is not going to help. But 308 is as good as any in the price bracket /availability,non reloading options.You probably won't be shooting much at 600+ yards anyhow. If at all possible,try before you buy-there are many reasonable Remingtons,some are better than others (as all factory rifles). If you get one you like,you may want to restock it-they come rather plasticy-not too nice to shoot-but that's optional and not urgent. Reloading may/not make sense financially-the outlay on tools is actually quite high to get quality ammo-you won't save much per shot,quality for quality-or indeed at all,and you'd need to shoot quite a bit to break even.Handloads can be better-but not always by a lot....and wind is no respecter of origin! OK good luck -I underfstand the feeling of getting going with your own gear,but there are plenty used 308 rifles around.Check them out first,if possible,see them shoot.Bells and whistles don't help shooting-a light trigger does,and a mod/brake-recoil disrupts accuracy. gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will_ Posted October 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Thank you all for the advice. The Nightforce scopes look to be a bit more expensive at around £1179, but I've heard they're rock solid. I'll might be sniffing around for a 2nd hand scope if I know it's been looked after... I'll take a look at Howas and Tikkas but I think I may have fallen in love with the Remington. One club member was really trying to talk me out of it, but in the competition I ended up coming 3rd with a Remington 700, 2 points behind him and his beautiful £5000 Dolphin. (I did have a good coach helping me out with wind advice though.) I think I will start a thread on the rifle and get some advice from the forum before parting with any cash though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Will,I said/meant a used Night Force-and they can go for way under £1000-the older target ones especially-rather than the newer and lower mag NSX ones-and it's the big target BR one you 'want'...... Also as said,if 'your' Remington shoots and you like it,buy it....some try to decry the Remington-as with anything,a few may be indiffernt-but they have sold 5 million 700s.....a lot just work. My 308 shot 1/2 moa at 1000-with a rather unpleasant recoil (cheap stock) but then it cost a whole lot less than a top modular stock-and not much more with a NF scope on it....It's also a decent enough action,and eventually,can be rebarreled to whatever you've decided on next. £5000 rifles do not shoot 5x better-as a very rough guide £1K will buy you .1moa,though few rifles will consistently shoot .2moa...just approaching intrinsic precision limits under notmal atmospherics,but very good,conditions.And assumes expert wind reader-that's the real area that you can improve,and that really matters.....can't be bought,either. Good shooting. "Enjoy" is better than 'win',though both are nice when deserved. :-) g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeman Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 Will, These are just my opinions.......... If you're buying solely for mid/long range and you want .308, you need more barrel than 26" At our club shoots the 'stock' Remington and rifles such as the AI struggle to perform at 1000 yards, sometimes shorter distances, unless you're prepared to really push something like the Berger 185. By perform, I mean reasonably competitively, not spraying shots all over the target or failing to even get there, which is no fun for the shooter or markers. Try to push the Remington and you run into things like blanked primers because of excessive clearance between the firing pin and it's hole in the bolt face. I love Remington actions by the way, I have a 40X and it shoots great, after I changed the barrel, stock and trigger and had the bolt face bushed! I'd always recommend someone on a budget to look at second hand target rifles which will generally have at least a 28" barrel, there are two on Fultons website right now, a Grunig and a Shilen which would be perfect starter rifles and even if well worn, the barrels will probably still out perform a new Remington barrel. With regard to scopes, I'd echo Gbal's comments, a used Nightforce or Sightron can be obtained for well under a grand if you're prepared to wait, I would take either the NSX or BR, plenty are in use and don't fixate on whether they are 1/4 or 1/8 minute adjustment, it doesn't matter, just learn to aim off, it's faster anyway. If you want a new Sightron, I'd recommended John at Aimfield Sports. Then just go out and shoot as often and in as many different conditions as you can. Good luck and welcome to the wonderful world of target shooting. Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggy Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 I went down a very similar route, with a 26" Remington as my first rifle. The shorter barrels will shoot to 1000 yards, but you are making things a lot harder for yourself. The bullets generally go transonic at 800-900 yards. If you have a 'tolerant' bullet that stays stable through the transonic zone, this can usuallly work OK, especially on a warm day, but it is a lot easier for those with a long barrel, or a calibre with better ballistics. I think that the advice of a second hand long-barreled .308 is pretty sound. They are often very reasonable in price, especially the older designs. If you want a magazine fed rifle, for customising or upgrading later on, I would definitely go for a Tikka these days. Have a play with one next to a Remington and you will see what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tisme Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Just a thought for you, most ftr rifles need around 30 moa at 1000 yards with a 30 inch barrel and hot loads. My 20 inch Tikka would get there with 42 moa. Different nightforce nsx scopes have different amounts of elevation, the 12-42 only has 45, the 8-32 has 70 and the 5.5-22 has 100. When fitted you only get half for up and half for down. If you put these on a 20 moa rail and zero at 100 yards the 8-32 will roughly have 55 moa elevation the 12-42 will only have 43 ( depending on scope hight, it might have less than 40) so you might run out if going any further in the future. Sightron S111 8-32 and the nightforce 5.5-22x56 both have 100 moa that would give you 70 moa elevation. So I would look for a scope with at least 70 moa elevation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaserman Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Hi Will, I think Baldie has two Nightforces for sale, both the target ones. I'm sure I read somewhere that the target ones were actually better glass than the NSX's, I could have dreamt it though. Best Regards, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Will,Tisme raises a relevant point-scopes have limited elevation,and it's in effect a lot less once you have zeroed the scope. The solution though is easy- a tapered rail on the rifle ...20 moa is popular,but 30 is possible. My Rem 700 VSSF 308 had a 20 moa rail.There was no problem dialling in around 32 moa to get the 190g bullets on at 1000y (lighter bullets might need a couple of moa less)-with either the 8x32 or 12x42 NF BR scopes. The higher mag was prefered-though not always useable with mirage (heat haze-it happens!),and it had a finer reticule. YOu simply can't have too much agnification-and you will see and benefit from an increase over the 24x you have used....while you don't need it (and its expensive) magnification up to 80x is now used....but for £700 or so,a used 12-42 NF,maybe the 10-50 sightron or 8-32 will see you set up pretty well.You may never need/want anything better.... With a 308 it's unlikely you will be shooting seriously beyond 1000y-it's on it's limit really at that,but if you must,then a 30 moa rail is the easy quick fix if you run out of elevation.If you run out of powder,then it's a big 7 cartridge....minimum! Rem 308s have shot a few 1/2 moa groups at 1000y in benign conditions,but rather more twice and thrice that.....and four+ as winds get difficult winds. Of course the dolphins (etc) spread out a bit more too....though the pods ( the group name for dolphins!) don't pop so much in big 7s. Serious 1000+ needs a bit more than 308w can provide,but you'll learn a lot with the 308,at way more reasonable cost. £1500 should get you a good used Rem and NF scope. gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M99 Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Just a thought for you, most ftr rifles need around 30 moa at 1000 yards with a 30 inch barrel and hot loads. My 20 inch Tikka would get there with 42 moa. Different nightforce nsx scopes have different amounts of elevation, the 12-42 only has 45, the 8-32 has 70 and the 5.5-22 has 100. When fitted you only get half for up and half for down. If you put these on a 20 moa rail and zero at 100 yards the 8-32 will roughly have 55 moa elevation the 12-42 will only have 43 ( depending on scope hight, it might have less than 40) so you might run out if going any further in the future. Sightron S111 8-32 and the nightforce 5.5-22x56 both have 100 moa that would give you 70 moa elevation. So I would look for a scope with at least 70 moa elevation. The 8-32 Sightron only has 70 - the 6-24 Sightron has 100 MOA ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will_ Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Hi Will, I think Baldie has two Nightforces for sale, both the target ones. Thanks again for all the advice. Who is this Baldie? I'd be interested in contacting him if he's got a couple of second hand scopes for sale for the right price... I'm still getting to grips understanding minutes of angle etc. I know what they are, (though I'm used to mils) but is the moa limit that tisme mentioned to do with how low the scope can go before being obstructed by the barrel or am I way off? Is it all an internal thing? Let me know if anyone's come across any really good beginners guide online recourses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWShooter Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Thank you all for the advice. The Nightforce scopes look to be a bit more expensive at around £1179, but I've heard they're rock solid. I'll might be sniffing around for a 2nd hand scope if I know it's been looked after... I'll take a look at Howas and Tikkas but I think I may have fallen in love with the Remington. One club member was really trying to talk me out of it, but in the competition I ended up coming 3rd with a Remington 700, 2 points behind him and his beautiful £5000 Dolphin. (I did have a good coach helping me out with wind advice though.) I think I will start a thread on the rifle and get some advice from the forum before parting with any cash though... Buy NightForce and you will only buy once , Vortex and Sightron will leave you stressing that if youd spent a few hundred more you would not be wondering is there something wrong with your scope . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will_ Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Regarding buying 2nd hand, obviously these scopes are not the kind of thing people take airsofting, but with such a precision instrument, can I be 100% confident that it works perfectly? (Obviously I wouldn't buy one that looked damaged, but is that enough of an indicator?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcampbellsmith Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Hot off the press - http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/10/18/best-tactical-scopes-and-reticles/Regards JCS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWShooter Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Heres a scientific review http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/09/19/tactical-scopes-field-test-results-summary/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106uk Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 And an easy guide to MOA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 A IOR scope should be on your list to look at. You will never buy another! You won't need to. BTW a T3 in 7-08 will just be a joy to use. 25-06 is another good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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