Long range bullet choice for the .308

[Chanonry]

George, 220 grn at 2659? Wow, I think I'm gonna need bedding compound rather than Fixodent :-)

 

Got some 208 Amax to 2650 on a non SAAMI coal. Bit stiffer but nothing to write home about. Rode the wind well but was hardly flat. Seemed to defeat the point to me, would be better off with another cartridge 6.5 or 6 if you want the windage but with flatter trajectory or 3006/300WM if you really want to throw a bullet that weight. Fun trying though.

 

Not as much fun as 200 gr Subsonic I digress...

[gbal]

Andy,quite so-remember these bullet weight/BC/velocity aggregated equivalents are to replicate the 'standard' 6.5x284 1000y performance for wind drift,not trajectory (itself no longer cutting edge).Rifle weight of course comes in too-but has competition class limits.

For knownn 1000y competition shooters,trajectory is not much of an issue-it's clicked in ,and gravity does not fluctuate-the wind does.

The figures also don't mean the values can be reached ,though it's by calibre rather than cartridge,so as you note a larger 308 calibre cartridge may well do so,even if a 308w is gasping....and it will be..

 

Ultimately,the requirements are driven by physics,and not everyone's pet will make the cut... It does help explain the two current routes...hot 6.5s,or heavy short magnums....and the 6BR if there isn't much wind (five accurate shots in 15 secs reduces even the smaller windage variation effects).

Good luck with the subsonics at 1000y-we won't hear much on that !!

g

[VarmLR]

Only just seen this. Excellent article Laurie and a good job that I haven't just gone out and bought 200 175gr SMKs to try at 1000 (doh!....I meant "I have").

 

I tried the #2155's but simply couldn't get the velocities needed at 1000 yds (I managed about 2,800 fps) and they were all over the place as they went through transonic region.

 

Best results to date were with the venerable SMK 190s, which on the first outing after load development put up a respectable moa at 1000 yds from a factory barrel and may have grouped tighter without the gentle, but variable sidewind.

 

As an aside, I am surprised that no-one yet has mentioned the newer TMK175s for 1000 yd F-Class/TR as their BC is significantly up on the older smk and they're still reasonably priced.

[gbal]

Varm, the Sierra 190 HPBT MK (moly) was/is a good bullet at 1000y at 2530-2560fps (temperature variation).

From a good Rem700VSSF ,bench rested 5 shots, it was a mow rifle (minute of wind)...ie with a 5mph wind 5 inches,10mph wind 10 inches,15 mph wind 15 inches.....

It may be that more recent BCs have crept up,but in a modest factory rifle,it's still a bullet that is shootable for the casual ' fancy trying 308 at 1000y' shooter (as was/is the Lapua Scenar). I don't see many BR groups from comparable rifles shooting consistently better,though if your rifle likes better BC bullets,that should be your choice.

Of course all this is well outclassed competitively by better LR cartridges and rigs-shooting a 308 at LR isn't something a free choice would promote-though some competition arbitrary restrictions do-and simply 'the rifle I have,and I fancy a go at 1000y"....in which case,do...enjoy..and learn. :-)

 

gbal

[Laurie]

As an aside, I am surprised that no-one yet has mentioned the newer TMK175s for 1000 yd F-Class/TR as their BC is significantly up on the older smk and they're still reasonably priced.

 

I've been asked several times now if I've tried them ... the answer so far is 'no'. There has been a flood of new bullets recently, and I shoot 308 a lot less these days than I once did.

 

My limited experience with the TMKs - 160gn 7mm only - has been very good. I have some other versions in other calibres which I'll try in due course, but haven't acquired any 30s yet. As I'm about to use my last 105 Berger 155.5s up in a test series for Targetshooter online, I might buy a couple of hundred 168 and 175gn versions to see how they go.

[VarmLR]

I'm swapping the 175's for some TMK 175s Laurie and will publish the load development results for 100 yds and 1000 yds when done. It will be interesting to compare them with the 190s (which punch a ragged hole at 100 from my rifle). I'll be using Lapua brass/Muron KVB-7 primers and RS50 propellant.

[VarmLR]

I'm swapping the 175's for some TMK 175s Laurie and will publish the load development results for 100 yds and 1000 yds when done. It will be interesting to compare them with the 190s (which punch a ragged hole at 100 from my rifle). I'll be using Lapua brass/Muron KVB-7 primers and RS50 propellant. Gbal, I only use the .308 as it is my hunting rifle and I haven't the funds nor inclination presently to build a dedicated 1000 yd rifle. If I did, I'd either go the 7mm or 6.5 Creedmore route. I like a challenge, and to me, achieving .5moa at 600 yds or 3/4moa at 1000 yds is my (possibly unrealistic) goal with a factory rifle. I've cracked moa at both distances and may have shot better if my technique and wind reading skills were better honed! It's really not for competition aims but for fun and learning.

[Zzrpilot]

^{is anyone shooting the newer Hornady ELD bullets for long range comps. I know they are new.}

^{I have tried the 178 eld x in my 7.5x55 and results are very promising, just wondering who else is using them}

[Laurie]

I suspect the ELD-Ms are struggling to obtain a foothold against existing Berger products for the serious long-range competitor, in many calibres anyway. Looking at US forums, the new 6.5s seem to be gaining traction especially amongst 6.5 Creedmoor shooters. The 143gn 'X' hunting version is particularly highly regarded for both precision and its expansion characteristics. Now that we can again buy and load expanding bullets for any purpose, this could well be a very good choice for the multi-role shooter who wants to use a deerstalking load on paper.

 

Other calibres? Judging by some heavy discounting by the major US suppliers, I doubt if they're doing very well. I know one top GB FTR competitor tried the .308 208gn ELD-M and quickly went back to the 200gn Berger Hybrid. They shot very well at shorter distances, but simply didn't match the Berger's 1,000 yards performance and consistency. Berger has really got 308 sewn up - there is at least one outstanding model in every weight category - the 155.5gn BT, 185gn BT, and 200gn Hybrid. A significant number of top northern FTR shooters still use the older 210gn Berger BT when shooting 'heavies'.

 

For many short to mid-range shooters, or those who don't need 1,000 yard 'ultra' performance, they may be very good choices - but only if they offer a substantial discount to Berger prices. So far at any rate, many models don't appear to justify premium pricing. In that case, they may have to be judged against Sierra's TMKs rather than Bergers.

[Zzrpilot]

 

 

For many short to mid-range shooters, or those who don't need 1,000 yard 'ultra' performance, they may be very good choices - but only if they offer a substantial discount to Berger prices. So far at any rate, many models don't appear to justify premium pricing. In that case, they may have to be judged against Sierra's TMKs rather than Bergers.

 

And Bergers can be quite hard to come by at times too...

Thanks Laurie seems interesting times ahead...

[Nick 53]

Great article by 2 good men !

[VarmLR]

Long time since I revisited this thread but I've now shot the 175 TMK numerous times at long range and it's proved a worthy bullet to 1000 yds at 2660 fps MV, very consistent (44.2grs RS50 used with Murom KVB large rifle primers in Lapua brass but a not too stiff load of 44.6 also shot well at considerably more velocity).  I've since bought a dedicated 6.5 long range rifle so probably won't be using the .308 as much for target but I can recommend the bullet.

[Spencer54]

Anyone used the Nosler RDF 175 yet - using the specs in Strelok it appears to make 1000yds at 1200fps witha MV of 2500ish?

I'm considering it currently.

[One on top of two]

I have been using them for a few weeks and yes there not to shabby , using my Tic Tac with 24” barrel I’ve been getting 2720 FPS average , they work very well at 400,600 yards 

I have tried them at 1000 y however I couldn’t get the best out of them as no matter what I did I just could not read the wind consistently. The ones that did hit when I timed the wind right done the trick 👍 

very good imho , just a shame on that day I couldn’t do them proper justice. 

[Spencer54]

Sounds like they could be a contender and not that expensive.

[No i deer]

I know somebody who is using a 147gr ELD match in his F open 6.5x284 and he shoots them superbly

[Jawed Umer]

I am using the 215 gr Bergers at 2450 ft /sec and see good groups.

[Popsbengo]

Berger 185 Juggernauts are excellent 30cal bullets.  Very consistent and slippy

[Pat Allen]

One more for 185 juggs .

[geek]

I was using Berger 185 Juggernauts, however, I have been unable to buy any from my local RFD, so I am now using Lapua  Scenar 185s.

[seaturtle]

Great article, thanks for sharing

[Popsbengo]

On 7/23/2020 at 10:12 PM, geek said:

I was using Berger 185 Juggernauts, however, I have been unable to buy any from my local RFD, so I am now using Lapua  Scenar 185s.

I'm doing the same.  Have you shot these now with a developed load?  How are you finding them compared to Berger Jugs ?

[geek]

7 hours ago, Popsbengo said:

I'm doing the same.  Have you shot these now with a developed load?  How are you finding them compared to Berger Jugs ?

For the Berger 185 Juggernauts I was using 42.3gr of IMR4895 (=2629 ft/s average) and now for the Lapua Scenar 185s I am using 45gr of Vit N150 (due to IMR being unavailable) which equates to 2686 ft/s average (usual disclaimer applies about these working in my rifle, don't know about anyone else's). 

However, I tried shooting 1000yards at Diggle using the Lapua  Scenar 185s and I was unable to consistently operate the electronic targets (velocity was about 1150ft/s at 1000tyards from memory). In fact, all the .308s on that day had problems with the targets reading the bullet impact. Therefore, it's 6.5 Creedmoor for the longer distances and .308 for the mid-range distances.

 

[Popsbengo]

45 minutes ago, geek said:

For the Berger 185 Juggernauts I was using 42.3gr of IMR4895 (=2629 ft/s average) and now for the Lapua Scenar 185s I am using 45gr of Vit N150 (due to IMR being unavailable) which equates to 2686 ft/s average (usual disclaimer applies about these working in my rifle, don't know about anyone else's). 

However, I tried shooting 1000yards at Diggle using the Lapua  Scenar 185s and I was unable to consistently operate the electronic targets (velocity was about 1150ft/s at 1000tyards from memory). In fact, all the .308s on that day had problems with the targets reading the bullet impact. Therefore, it's 6.5 Creedmoor for the longer distances and .308 for the mid-range distances.

 

Was accuracy as good as the Bergers?

 

[geek]

7 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

Was accuracy as good as the Bergers?

 

I am unable to find any images of the load development accuracy, however, from memory the Bergers provided greater accuracy. Also, when I was using the Bergers, Diggle wasn't using electronic targets so I am unable to compare velocity at 1000yards.