Moa / Moa vs. Mill / Mill for tactical comps

[bob roberts]

Hi all, is there any advantage to a Mil / Mil scope for the tactical comps?

Moa / Moa seems a lot easier to remember and 1/8th clicks seem more precise even if it means keeping track of bazillion uber gazillion clicks.

 

What do you all think?

 

 

It’s the only bit of this build that gives me brain ache.

 

 

Any thoughts and opinions will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

My rifle / scope thread in the f class section

http://ukvarminting.com/forums/topic/19793-march-5-40x56-ffp-for-f-class-and-tactical-comps/

 

 

 

 

 

[tackb]

Mil mil for me , metric sums are easier IMO

[oaken]

I would say that under comp pressure you need to be completely familiar with whichever you use.

From experience, don't mix the two! If you decide to go mils then switch all your other scopes to mils otherwise really stupid mistakes WILL result :-).

I thought I would try a metric scope but got rid pdq as didn't want/ couldn't afford to change all my others.

Mils are easy in comparison but.......

Rup

[TSG]

Mils are easier to teach to people who are post decimalisation! They are also easier for range finding if that's your thing. My tactical scopes are all in MOA and I seem to be able to switch between the two units quite well but I think that's because I just work in clicks using manual tables and iPhone apps based upon decent info. I will admit to the biggest problem being remembering the click value for the scope as they are all different values.I put on elevation for half MOA and deflection for quarter MOA a couple of weeks ago and found myself lost in 'sight adjustment land' for an entire Mcqueen practice. I think this is an age issue.

[Jagged 77]

Either or Bob, just know whichever one you choose inside out.

 

I would say however ditch the 1/8 clicks and stick to .25 instead. The coarser adjustment really doesn't make any real world difference and are easier and quicker to operate.

[brown dog]

I seem to be able to switch between the two units quite well but I think that's because I just work in clicks

 

Yup, forget the units, just think in clicks.

 

I giggle when someone says they can't get on with a mil scope; no one actually sets a scope in MOA, they set a certain number of clicks. A mil scope is no different.

 

Get mil mil, but if you're in the camp that's determined that setting 8 clicks on an MOA scope is somehow easier to understand than setting 8 clicks on a mil scope just make sure reticle and clicks are in the same unit. Mixing units really is setting yourself an unecessary challenge.

[Ronin]

All my scope are Metric (Mil) except those for F Class where im only shooting at known distance (800, 900, 1000 yds) AND as part of a team, they all work in MOA (including the wind coach) its simpler to just accept this necessity rather than try and change to MIL for one discipline.

 

 

Perfect world for me would be MIL scope, MIL reticule and thats what I have in every scope bar two.

[Deserttech Europe]

I think Matt is correct, if you are checking your cards, PDA or tepephone numbers they will all be in clicks. The actual angular amount is almost irrelevant.

 

Crucial though is that the reticule and turrets are in the same adjustment in order to call shot quickly and accurately.

 

Other points are ranging, (if you actually do this) then Mil is vastly easier than MOA

 

It think it is important that your team, whether this is a spotter, someone on a lamp or an Fclass windcoach are working in the same units.

 

Finally the last component of the mix is the spotting scope, it is extremely useful to have this in the same units as the teams riflescopes.

 

Ramble over.....

 

Ewen

[terryh]

I think Matt is correct, if you are checking your cards, PDA or tepephone numbers they will all be in clicks. The actual angular amount is almost irrelevant.

 

Crucial though is that the reticule and turrets are in the same adjustment in order to call shot quickly and accurately.

 

Other points are ranging, (if you actually do this) then Mil is vastly easier than MOA

 

It think it is important that your team, whether this is a spotter, someone on a lamp or an Fclass windcoach are working in the same units.

 

Finally the last component of the mix is the spotting scope, it is extremely useful to have this in the same units as the teams riflescopes.

 

Ramble over.....

 

Ewen

 

This^^^

 

Drives me insane when you have a 'mildot' ret and imperial adjustments - what's the point?

 

As stated, it does not matter inch or millimeter, they are just a value, i.e. 300yards is 1.4 or 14 clicks, you do not need to start thinking about the units, just numbers.

 

Also, while we're at it, if you are going to 'range' or call corrections a FFP scopes is 'it' really. No point in having a calibrated ret unless it's FFP - Caveat if you are shooting known distances and have time to set up to a mag that the ret actually means something than SFP might work (but you're making it hard for yourself.

 

Terry

[dannywayoflife]

Is their any real world difference with the courser 1cm clicks as opposed to .25"?

[bob roberts]

 

This^^^

 

Drives me insane when you have a 'mildot' ret and imperial adjustments - what's the point?

 

As stated, it does not matter inch or millimeter, they are just a value, i.e. 300yards is 1.4 or 14 clicks, you do not need to start thinking about the units, just numbers.

 

Also, while we're at it, if you are going to 'range' or call corrections a FFP scopes is 'it' really. No point in having a calibrated ret unless it's FFP - Caveat if you are shooting known distances and have time to set up to a mag that the ret actually means something than SFP might work (but you're making it hard for yourself.

 

Terry

 

Thanks Terry, I think we are on the same wavelength. It’s definitely going to be FFP with the turrets and reticle matching!

 

 

The rifle scope I have my heart set on is available in both Mil/Mil and Moa/Moa.

 

Moa seems preferable for F class and bench rest, but I think that spotting scope you mentioned on the other forum is only available in Mil.

 

 

Ben

[bob roberts]

 

This^^^

 

Drives me insane when you have a 'mildot' ret and imperial adjustments - what's the point?

 

As stated, it does not matter inch or millimeter, they are just a value, i.e. 300yards is 1.4 or 14 clicks, you do not need to start thinking about the units, just numbers.

 

Also, while we're at it, if you are going to 'range' or call corrections a FFP scopes is 'it' really. No point in having a calibrated ret unless it's FFP - Caveat if you are shooting known distances and have time to set up to a mag that the ret actually means something than SFP might work (but you're making it hard for yourself.

 

Terry

 

Thanks Terry, I think we are on the same wavelength. It’s definitely going to be FFP with the turrets and reticle matching!

 

The rifle scope I have my heart set on is available in both Mil/Mil and Moa/Moa.

 

Moa seems preferable for F class and bench rest, but I think that spotting scope you mentioned on the other forum is only available in Mil.

 

 

Ben

[terryh]

Danny,

 

In shooting under pressure of speed or movment (i.e. 'fun' ) then no, for precision obviously smaller increments help!

 

For example of you 'needed' exactly 10.25 moa (=10.701") to get to 475 yards then the closest in mils would be 3.1mil = 10.65", so on the target you'd be 'out' by 1/4". But if you needed 10.5moa (10.962") then the next mil up, 3.2, is 11" so you'd be out on the target by .18".

 

Basically at 1000 yards the difference in 'click' at the target between mil and moa is (.34377 - .261) x 10 = .8277 = nom 7/8"

 

If this sort of precision is important to you then moa's your baby

 

Terry

 

ps - the above maths 'done quick' over lunchtime sandwich so please edit where necessary.

 

pps - 'yes' you can have 1/8" moa clicks as you can also have .05m clicks.

 

ppss - shoot what you're comfortable with and works for you

[baldie]

Is their any real world difference with the courser 1cm clicks as opposed to .25"?

 

1cm is 10 millimetres.

1/4" is 6mm [ roughly ]

 

That is a big difference. I bought a mil scope thinking I could get used to it , alongside a cabinet full of MOA scopes. Big mistake. I simply could not get on with MIL , it is SO different.

 

Both work fine when used to. The golden rule is DONT mix them.

[dannywayoflife]

Thanks chaps

[MJR]

Try not to get hung up on which is 'better' just choose which is more familiar and easier for you personally. But as already said make sure reticles and adjustment units match. If you work it through the actual difference between 1/4moa and .1 mrad is a little over 1/8" at 100yds, personally I can't shoot to better than that so the difference is irrelevant especially if other stress is present i.e. timed competition, unsupported etc.

[bob roberts]

Thanks all for your help.

 

Try not to get hung up on which is 'better' just choose which is more familiar and easier for you personally. But as already said make sure reticles and adjustment units match. If you work it through the actual difference between 1/4moa and .1 mrad is a little over 1/8" at 100yds, personally I can't shoot to better than that so the difference is irrelevant especially if other stress is present i.e. timed competition, unsupported etc.

 

If this sort of precision is important to you then moa's your baby

 

 

I think Moa/Moa suites me better, and as you all say it’s best just to choose the one.

 

I’d like to have ago of the tactical comps, but I think I am more of a bench rest shooter! :blush:

[brown dog]

Bob,

 

Now that you've decided; worth reminding that all the calcs above have been done comparing 0.1mrad with 1/4MOA (or 1/8).......whereas the March scope you're interested in in another thread is 0.05mrad.

 

Returning to calcs; precision-wise don't forget these measurements (MOA/milrad) are angular measurements, not linear.

 

So MOA isn't really 'inches' if you're being precise. 1 MOA subtends 1.047" at 100 yds;

 

So a 1/4MOA click is actually 0.25 x 1.047 = 0.262inches at 100yds.

 

Coarser in 'inch terms' than many realise/assume - and only about 1/10 of an inch different to a 0.1mrad click at that distance (0.262inches against 0.36)

 

If we turn to your proposed March; 0,05mrad or 1/8MOA; at 100yds 1/8MOA subtends 0.131 inches 0.05mrad subtends 0.18 inches -less than 0.05inch difference at 100yds

 

There's nothing between them in real terms - 0.25MOA always sounds a little guccier than it is, because people forget that it's an angular measurement and just treat it as 'inches'.

 

 

Which takes me full circle......with angular measurements, you should just think in clicks.

[Finman]

Just to throw a spanner in the works, does 1cm/100m equate to 0.1mil?? Puzzled...

 

Finman

[Ronin]

Just to throw a spanner in the works, does 1cm/100m equate to 0.1mil?? Puzzled...

 

Finman

 

 

Yes

[Finman]

Thought so

[bob roberts]

Bob,

 

Now that you've decided; worth reminding that all the calcs above have been done comparing 0.1mrad with 1/4MOA (or 1/8).......whereas the March scope you're interested in in another thread is 0.05mrad.

 

Returning to calcs; precision-wise don't forget these measurements (MOA/milrad) are angular measurements, not linear.

 

So MOA isn't really 'inches' if you're being precise. 1 MOA subtends 1.047" at 100 yds;

 

So a 1/4MOA click is actually 0.25 x 1.047 = 0.262inches at 100yds.

 

Coarser in 'inch terms' than many realise/assume - and only about 1/10 of an inch different to a 0.1mrad click at that distance (0.262inches against 0.36)

 

If we turn to your proposed March; 0,05mrad or 1/8MOA; at 100yds 1/8MOA subtends 0.131 inches 0.05mrad subtends 0.18 inches -less than 0.05inch difference at 100yds

 

There's nothing between them in real terms - 0.25MOA always sounds a little guccier than it is, because people forget that it's an angular measurement and just treat it as 'inches'.

 

 

Which takes me full circle......with angular measurements, you should just think in clicks.

 

Thinking long term, quite long term the best spotting scope, with reticle, is in Mil but the best bench rest scopes are Moa.

 

Starting out it does not, probably, make a difference. But how do you predict which you’ll be wanting 5 years from now when I enjoy tactical shooting just as much as F class and the like?

 

Considering how much I’d loose selling up and choosing the other, it is not something I would ever consider. :blush:

 

 

Which takes me full circle.

 

Hence the brain ache.

 

[hunter87]

Mil mil for me

[ChrisF]

I look for the courseness/finese of the clicks , and the amount of actual adjustment available , and the amount in each rev .

 

You have 1 inche , 1/2 , 1/4 & 1/8 inches clicks and milrad which is 0.358 approx , so I like something thats not TOO fine , or course , and for me for most apps , that turns into a 0.1mrad click scope .

 

Later Chris