Why do you bother to reload?

[terryh]

In some cases (no pun) it is the only option.

 

In all cases because they have better performance and/or consistency.

 

There are very good factory offerings, Lapua, RUAG, FGM which ib certain calibres will be 'good enough' , in some e.g. lapua 6.5x47, they are very accurate but running about 200 fps slower than a sensible homeload.

 

Terry

[1967spud]

Good replies guys but nobody has mentioned one i tend to say a lot , keep them coming.

[247sniper]

Good replies guys but nobody has mentioned one i tend to say a lot , keep them coming.

Satisfaction and enjoyment???

 

 

 

Steve.

[bradders]

More records? That one has escaped me - can you remind us which records specifically please.

Well, there's more to life than F Class and Benchrest and itty bitty hi BC bullets in "wundercalibre of the week" you know.

 

With NRA Highpower in Service class shooting .308 (which by definition would be the M14/M1A rifle), until the M16 became the rifle of choice, all competitors used the M14 type rifle.

Bullet choices were the 168 or 173gn M852.

With the 168gn offering from Federal it was more accurate and consistent and the big teams such as Army, Marines, National Guard etc could afford to buy this, as did civilian competitors.

This was before Sierra brought out the 175gn, which in itself had issues because of it beating up the operating rods.

 

Virtually all records shot in Highpower were shot using this ammo including the 500-32x National Match record which still stands.

The shooters name escapes me but the closest anyone has come to date is Lew Tippie with 500-25x.

 

Others are Tom Whitaker 200-19x rapid fire prone 300yds 1992 which beat his previous record of 200-17x from 1980

Sherri Gallagher equalled this in 2011 with an M16/AR15

 

Gary Rasmussen shot 200-18x rapid fire sitting at 200yds in 1987.

It took until 2002 for Dennis DeMille to beat this with 200-20x with an AR15

 

In 200yd standing slow fire someone called GA Anderson shot 200-15x in 1971, still hasn't been beaten

 

In 1967 someone called CF Hamilton shot 200-15x slow fire at 600yds.

It wasn't until 2002 that that was beaten by 2x's and in 2004 Nancy Gallagher shot 200-19x.

The record now is 200-21x.

 

There are many more individual, team and specific match results that I won't look for, but each one of those records beat a previous record, and I'm not even starting to include Match rifle (US NRA not UK NRA)

 

If anyone wishes to take issue with this, either speak to the US NRA records office or show me one make of ammunition or someones homeloads that have won more...

[jcampbellsmith]

..Why do you reload?

Although I shot my 260 Rem for the first 7 years with factory ammo only, I knew it wasn't a sensible or sustainable strategy, so in 2006 I got organised and started reloading for it. Reloading allows me to have a load for stalking, a load for practice and a load for use on ranges.

 

Regards JCS

[Aggy]

Because I am a tight fIsted yorkshireman

[SteveW]

All my life I've loved experimenting and making things, seemed the natural route to take. And necessity, the fact that I dont shoot/own any factory produced centre fire calibres.

Love chasing the accuracy load, and learning en route, both good and bad.......

[jungle_re]

Good replies guys but nobody has mentioned one i tend to say a lot , keep them coming.

 

Rosemary the telephone operator? Could be!

 

I'm going to guess it's "because I can"?

[terryh]

To upset Bradders?? Lol

[bradders]

To upset Bradders?? Lol

Far from it, I have plenty of reloading equipment.

I just choose not to where possible these days, as for the kind of shooting I'm doing with Service Rifle it's hard to see where the advantage is compared to time spent by the bench.

I merely pointed out a fact about Federal ammo and a few took issue with it, or skirted around "exactly" what I said and put their own spin on it.

 

 

Well I certainly put them in their place

[gbal]

Well, there's more to life than F Class and Benchrest and itty bitty hi BC bullets in "wundercalibre of the week" you know.

 

With NRA Highpower in Service class shooting .308 (which by definition would be the M14/M1A rifle), until the M16 became the rifle of choice, all competitors used the M14 type rifle.

Bullet choices were the 168 or 173gn M852.

With the 168gn offering from Federal it was more accurate and consistent and the big teams such as Army, Marines, National Guard etc could afford to buy this, as did civilian competitors.

This was before Sierra brought out the 175gn, which in itself had issues because of it beating up the operating rods.

 

Virtually all records shot in Highpower were shot using this ammo including the 500-32x National Match record which still stands.

The shooters name escapes me but the closest anyone has come to date is Lew Tippie with 500-25x.

 

Others are Tom Whitaker 200-19x rapid fire prone 300yds 1992 which beat his previous record of 200-17x from 1980

Sherri Gallagher equalled this in 2011 with an M16/AR15

 

Gary Rasmussen shot 200-18x rapid fire sitting at 200yds in 1987.

It took until 2002 for Dennis DeMille to beat this with 200-20x with an AR15

 

In 200yd standing slow fire someone called GA Anderson shot 200-15x in 1971, still hasn't been beaten

 

In 1967 someone called CF Hamilton shot 200-15x slow fire at 600yds.

It wasn't until 2002 that that was beaten by 2x's and in 2004 Nancy Gallagher shot 200-19x.

The record now is 200-21x.

 

There are many more individual, team and specific match results that I won't look for, but each one of those records beat a previous record, and I'm not even starting to include Match rifle (US NRA not UK NRA)

 

If anyone wishes to take issue with this, either speak to the US NRA records office or show me one make of ammunition or someones homeloads that have won more...

OK granted.But I think you miss the point-however impressive its record is in one-or more -disciplines,and for whatever reason-there are other competitive disciplines where FGM308 does not really figure at all,so it's success is in that sense limited,and indeed in many of these other disciplines hand loaded ammunition in other calibres dominates.Most Bench Rest shooting would be a clear example.And 'more competitions' has to be moderated by the possibility that there are just more competitions in that discipline.Tenex might have a good claim to have won more olympic gold medals,but that means it's a good choice for those olympic competitions,not 'across the course' USA competitions.Did someone say Tubb/6xc or the latest...?

george

[The Gun Pimp]

Well, there's more to life than F Class and Benchrest and itty bitty hi BC bullets in "wundercalibre of the week" you know.

 

With NRA Highpower in Service class shooting .308 (which by definition would be the M14/M1A rifle), until the M16 became the rifle of choice, all competitors used the M14 type rifle.

Bullet choices were the 168 or 173gn M852.

With the 168gn offering from Federal it was more accurate and consistent and the big teams such as Army, Marines, National Guard etc could afford to buy this, as did civilian competitors.

This was before Sierra brought out the 175gn, which in itself had issues because of it beating up the operating rods.

 

Virtually all records shot in Highpower were shot using this ammo including the 500-32x National Match record which still stands.

The shooters name escapes me but the closest anyone has come to date is Lew Tippie with 500-25x.

 

Others are Tom Whitaker 200-19x rapid fire prone 300yds 1992 which beat his previous record of 200-17x from 1980

Sherri Gallagher equalled this in 2011 with an M16/AR15

 

Gary Rasmussen shot 200-18x rapid fire sitting at 200yds in 1987.

It took until 2002 for Dennis DeMille to beat this with 200-20x with an AR15

 

In 200yd standing slow fire someone called GA Anderson shot 200-15x in 1971, still hasn't been beaten

 

In 1967 someone called CF Hamilton shot 200-15x slow fire at 600yds.

It wasn't until 2002 that that was beaten by 2x's and in 2004 Nancy Gallagher shot 200-19x.

The record now is 200-21x.

 

There are many more individual, team and specific match results that I won't look for, but each one of those records beat a previous record, and I'm not even starting to include Match rifle (US NRA not UK NRA)

 

If anyone wishes to take issue with this, either speak to the US NRA records office or show me one make of ammunition or someones homeloads that have won more...

 

I am enlightened - I suppose we could also add all the GB NRA Imperial records that have been set - and broken - over many years with compulsory issued Radway Green ammo!

[bradders]

I am enlightened - I suppose we could also add all the GB NRA Imperial records that have been set - and broken - over many years with compulsory issued Radway Green ammo!

Well you could but it very probably won't come close

[gbal]

Well, there's more to life than F Class and Benchrest and itty bitty hi BC bullets in "wundercalibre of the week" you know.

 

With NRA Highpower in Service class shooting .308 (which by definition would be the M14/M1A rifle), until the M16 became the rifle of choice, all competitors used the M14 type rifle.

Bullet choices were the 168 or 173gn M852.

With the 168gn offering from Federal it was more accurate and consistent and the big teams such as Army, Marines, National Guard etc could afford to buy this, as did civilian competitors.

This was before Sierra brought out the 175gn, which in itself had issues because of it beating up the operating rods.

 

Virtually all records shot in Highpower were shot using this ammo including the 500-32x National Match record which still stands.

The shooters name escapes me but the closest anyone has come to date is Lew Tippie with 500-25x.

 

Others are Tom Whitaker 200-19x rapid fire prone 300yds 1992 which beat his previous record of 200-17x from 1980

Sherri Gallagher equalled this in 2011 with an M16/AR15

 

Gary Rasmussen shot 200-18x rapid fire sitting at 200yds in 1987.

It took until 2002 for Dennis DeMille to beat this with 200-20x with an AR15

 

In 200yd standing slow fire someone called GA Anderson shot 200-15x in 1971, still hasn't been beaten

 

In 1967 someone called CF Hamilton shot 200-15x slow fire at 600yds.

It wasn't until 2002 that that was beaten by 2x's and in 2004 Nancy Gallagher shot 200-19x.

The record now is 200-21x.

 

There are many more individual, team and specific match results that I won't look for, but each one of those records beat a previous record, and I'm not even starting to include Match rifle (US NRA not UK NRA)

 

If anyone wishes to take issue with this, either speak to the US NRA records office or show me one make of ammunition or someones homeloads that have won more...

Ok it was good-last century.

What is winning in this competition area these days? It might still be,but your dates seem dated!

Why is the 223 popular etc etc-there are statistics,damned statistics and economies with the current scene.

Ps I like the 308,I just don't think it's the best tool all the time-not even as a military rifle round.Nor is military oriented competition the only guide to good ammunition nor what the 'military' teams use neccessarily the best all the time.

Black Diamond is OK if you runshort of Fed.

Mostly though,be 'civil 'enough to accept that 'military' rifle isn't the only game in town.And ,yes,I have a military rifle,which I like,but not for everything.

 

george

[terryh]

Far from it, I have plenty of reloading equipment.

I just choose not to where possible these days, as for the kind of shooting I'm doing with Service Rifle it's hard to see where the advantage is compared to time spent by the bench.

I merely pointed out a fact about Federal ammo and a few took issue with it, or skirted around "exactly" what I said and put their own spin on it.

 

 

Well I certainly put them in their place

Mark,

 

Just leg pulling and agree that in some instances the use of reasonable quality factory ammo is more that adequate.

 

Folks would gain more from actually going out and shooting rather than spending the last nth in reducing thier group from 1/2" to 1/3" only to miss a wind call and be 'blown' 2". This obsession with the final .1" is, to coin a phrase, 'picking the fly *hit out of the pepper'

 

Terry

[bradders]

Ok it was good-last century.

What is winning in this competition area these days? It might still be,but your dates seem dated!

Why is the 223 popular etc etc-there are statistics,damned statistics and economies with the current scene.

Ps I like the 308,I just don't think it's the best tool all the time-not even as a military rifle round.Nor is military oriented competition the only guide to good ammunition nor what the 'military' teams use neccessarily the best all the time.

Black Diamond is OK if you runshort of Fed.

Mostly though,be 'civil 'enough to accept that 'military' rifle isn't the only game in town.And ,yes,I have a military rifle,which I like,but not for everything.

 

george

I said it has set more records, where did I say it was the best?

 

It's my turn to be enlightened.

 

Take your time, I'll be here all day

[happyhunter]

Good replies guys but nobody has mentioned one i tend to say a lot , keep them coming.

 

To keep you in business of course Spud!

 

The more I reload the more I shoot.

[gbal]

To keep you in business of course Spud! The more I reload the more I shoot.

Serendipity. No point in anyone being in business to add to someone's else's pile of unused ammo,every reason for someone nice to stay in business to supply a shooter."The more I reload,the less I shoot" might. It's an amusing answer,but won't solve the riddle of this sphinx.

george

[gbal]

Far from it, I have plenty of reloading equipment.

I just choose not to where possible these days, as for the kind of shooting I'm doing with Service Rifle it's hard to see where the advantage is compared to time spent by the bench.

I merely pointed out a fact about Federal ammo and a few took issue with it, or skirted around "exactly" what I said and put their own spin on it.

 

 

Well I certainly put them in their place

I think it's called having a discussion,isn't it?I would not want to be too pedantic about semantics with someone who in his/her profile lists 'location'-(yes I know that not exactly the same as 'place')-as somewhere that does not exist.It seems that you are talking about NRA High Power Service Class records.

There is no need to demean other shooting disciplines-I like precision and accuracy,but also just hitting the falling men military targets too. Neither is superior,and there are a very great many things in life that are more important than any shooting competitions.

Fed GMM 168 has done very well indeed,especially in the above competitions.Whether it really has set more records than any other ammunition is very hard to be sure about-I think Tenex might well run it close,and will continue to set a lot of records.But then you might start to wriggle about what is a record/competition and so on-fair/unfair enough.I'll concede that the 6ppc is a chamber,not 'ammunition' and it would be very difficult to check on the exact loadings of the multitude of records set by it.Those would make the eight records you quote (admitedly not a full list) seem modest indeed-especially if we include all the BR variants,100,200,300 Light ,Heavy,aggregates,etc etc and the many world wide Fererations for BR.

Incidentally,as you are clearly a wordsmith of some modest skill,(take it as a compliment), note only the first record ever set in any competition does not beat the previoius record .So 'each of these records beats a previous record' is merely tautologous.

I return to my place,which I do not believe is below you on the all time NRA records list,accepting you have almost certainly fired more FGMM than I have. I find that even firing 200+ rounds in a couple of hours still leaves plenty of time to reload,and ponder why the latest gee whizz calibre/bc etc does not give me bug holes every time, but even so I don't feel compelled to spend twice as much on ammunition that won't either.We all have our ideas on what is good enough,and rightly so,given tolerance.Discuss.

george

[1967spud]

I think it's called having a discussion,isn't it?I would not want to be too pedantic about semantics with someone who in his/her profile lists 'location'-(yes I know that not exactly the same as 'place')-as somewhere that does not exist.It seems that you are talking about NRA High Power Service Class records.

There is no need to demean other shooting disciplines-I like precision and accuracy,but also just hitting the falling men military targets too. Neither is superior,and there are a very great many things in life that are more important than any shooting competitions.

Fed GMM 168 has done very well indeed,especially in the above competitions.Whether it really has set more records than any other ammunition is very hard to be sure about-I think Tenex might well run it close,and will continue to set a lot of records.But then you might start to wriggle about what is a record/competition and so on-fair/unfair enough.I'll concede that the 6ppc is a chamber,not 'ammunition' and it would be very difficult to check on the exact loadings of the multitude of records set by it.Those would make the eight records you quote (admitedly not a full list) seem modest indeed-especially if we include all the BR variants,100,200,300 Light ,Heavy,aggregates,etc etc and the many world wide Fererations for BR.

Incidentally,as you are clearly a wordsmith of some modest skill,(take it as a compliment), note only the first record ever set in any competition does not beat the previoius record .So 'each of these records beats a previous record' is merely tautologous.

I return to my place,which I do not believe is below you on the all time NRA records list,accepting you have almost certainly fired more FGMM than I have. I find that even firing 200+ rounds in a couple of hours still leaves plenty of time to reload,and ponder why the latest gee whizz calibre/bc etc does not give me bug holes every time, but even so I don't feel compelled to spend twice as much on ammunition that won't either.We all have our ideas on what is good enough,and rightly so,given tolerance.Discuss.

george

+1

[gbal]

Mark,

 

Just leg pulling and agree that in some instances the use of reasonable quality factory ammo is more that adequate.

 

Folks would gain more from actually going out and shooting rather than spending the last nth in reducing thier group from 1/2" to 1/3" only to miss a wind call and be 'blown' 2". This obsession with the final .1" is, to coin a phrase, 'picking the fly *hit out of the pepper'

 

Terry

Hi Terry,

some leg pulling helps keep things in perspective,so thanks for that-not literally,in case bradders reads this-.In extremis, you have a point, but most shooters have time to both reload,however pernickety,and shoot,however observantly! It's just not an either /or choice.

 

In the interests of gastronomic freedom ,and general comraderie among shooters,if you prefer "not to pick the fly *hit out of your pepper",then indulge us by allowing us to take your opinions with a pinch of salt.

 

Bon apetit!

 

george

[terryh]

George,

 

There is indeed time for both load development and shooting but you've misinterpreted my point which was, actually still is, not an opinion but more an observation of fact. If you reduce say the average goruping from 3/4" to 1/2" at 100 yards and apply the very simple math of saying this results in a 2" group at 400 yards rather than a 3" then even on something like my 7SAUM a missed wind call of 3mph is greater than your effort in reloading inprovement.

 

There needs to be a good balance between being able to shoot and consitency or grouping of your loads they are contiguous not exclusive!

 

I'm in two camps here, as much as I hate to agree with Mark (that's said tounge in cheek BTW ) but in some applications good factory loads are all you need. Take deer stalking. At sensible distances with a modern rifle then factory will do quite nicely. You do get the 'you should be doing your best to ensure a clean kill = must hand load. but if the stalker does not also do a reasonable amount of practice on a range then is he 'doing his best' to ensure a clean kill?

 

Reloading is 'it' as far as performance is concerned. FGM etc. is good, but not in all rifles. It obvioulsy was good enough at the time the records were taken that Mark quoted (but possibly influenced by whatb those people were 'allowed' to use i.e. factory). But what is it doing now? Caveat - a few years ago RO held a 308 only comp using issued ammuntition. Corbon made about 20K rounds of 308 based on 175 SMK's in both Lapua and Win brass (you could shoot mixed in the same magazine!) - it shot superbly out to 800+ yards in all 60 rifles present, stock, custom, bolt and semi, which then goes back to the 'why reload' question.

 

Discussion and difference of opinion are in our free world, bring it on . Experaince all sorts of shooting, do not become polarised, do not look up or down on any part of our sport, try something different - you might like it.

 

Terry

 

 

[gbal]

George,

 

There is indeed time for both load development and shooting but you've misinterpreted my point which was, actually still is, not an opinion but more an observation of fact. If you reduce say the average goruping from 3/4" to 1/2" at 100 yards and apply the very simple math of saying this results in a 2" group at 400 yards rather than a 3" then even on something like my 7SAUM a missed wind call of 3mph is greater than your effort in reloading inprovement.

 

There needs to be a good balance between being able to shoot and consitency or grouping of your loads they are contiguous not exclusive!

 

I'm in two camps here, as much as I hate to agree with Mark (that's said tounge in cheek BTW ) but in some applications good factory loads are all you need. Take deer stalking. At sensible distances with a modern rifle then factory will do quite nicely. You do get the 'you should be doing your best to ensure a clean kill = must hand load. but if the stalker does not also do a reasonable amount of practice on a range then is he 'doing his best' to ensure a clean kill?

 

Reloading is 'it' as far as performance is concerned. FGM etc. is good, but not in all rifles. It obvioulsy was good enough at the time the records were taken that Mark quoted (but possibly influenced by whatb those people were 'allowed' to use i.e. factory). But what is it doing now? Caveat - a few years ago RO held a 308 only comp using issued ammuntition. Corbon made about 20K rounds of 308 based on 175 SMK's in both Lapua and Win brass (you could shoot mixed in the same magazine!) - it shot superbly out to 800+ yards in all 60 rifles present, stock, custom, bolt and semi, which then goes back to the 'why reload' question.

 

Discussion and difference of opinion are in our free world, bring it on . Experaince all sorts of shooting, do not become polarised, do not look up or down on any part of our sport, try something different - you might like it.

 

Terry

Terry,I agree-and have said so on this forum often enough-but it does no harm to have your ammunition as accurate/pecise as possible-it reduces one of the error components-and can be done-buying a better rifle is another 'can be done'-judging the wind is a much more skillful and therfore error prone issue,and cannot be just purcheased,and is a major contibutor to diminished accuracy.(accuracy is hitting a speciified point,precision is closely grouping shots around some unspecified point-and much debate/discussion would be redundant if this were always borne in mind.Stalkers need 1st shot accuracy,but not better than 1moa,as a rough guide.Precision shooters will not be competitive with just 1moa usually.

Cost remains a clear factor-using like for like components,the reloader must save the cost of the brass-until it has to be replaced of course,and this is not far off half the cost. For deer stalkers,the number of rounds needed might not offset the savings,for someone firing 5000 rounds a year,they will.Additionally,there will be less faffing around with factory-some,but you have experience to go on-Fed GMM 168 308 eg!,though an american shooter has some 74 different factory 30/30 loads available if he really has to try everything in his 150 yards L/A carbine,not shot off a bench etc.Varmint shooters are usually in between,and need as much accuracy as they can get,Foxers somewhat less so-fox is bigger and closer,typically.But if someone wants to haul an 18 lb rifle with 10-50 march scope with .2 moa under optimal conditions,so be it.If he shoots,it will make a decisive hit more likely;for him.The best aid to good shooting remains,though,no wind-there surely is no dispute over this.Ranging skill is now bypassed by laser,but there is no corresponding wind measure -nor is there even a hint of the technonlgy-though a windmeter at muzzle does help!

So I don't think reloading is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic,but per se it will not avert the iceberg.

 

george

[bradders]

Terry's right in what he's posted.

 

I can't see why you're still taking issue with me though over what I posted, which I might add was originally claimed in Precision Shooting Magazine.

Who am I to argue with them, and therefore why argue with me?

I defer to those that actually know more on this subject than me, and I can't see why you're all getting het up over this.

 

It's apparently factual and I never said it was the best available, but most record setting ammo there's been.

No one has actually disproved this yet [insert smiley face]

 

Anyway it's all somewhat irrelevant now, but at least I have managed to engage some of you in discussion rather than people just posting their reasons as to why or why not.

 

There's another ammo that has been mentioned recently, I think it is 300M 6BR ammo made by Norma and the consensus seems to be that while it's expensive, it's also pretty hard to better.

I used to reload everything, and in fact was probably the first person to import and shoot 77gn SMK's in Practical Rifle.

For those of you that look down on US NRA, I have this for you.........why do you think all those fancy .223 and .308 bullets came about in the first place?

 

When I started loading 77's I did some research and spoke to various people in the US about loads and everyone came back with the same data...24-24.5 gns of Reloder 15 or Varget in Win or Rem brass and go shoot it.

It works and is hard to better, so why mess around?

There are some loads that just work, this is one.

When shooting 80's just use the same charge and don't worry about it.

 

Nowadays I do still reload, but only for big matches such as the Imperial CSR champs. the rest of the time, as in league matches, I just use good quality surplus, as minimum effort for maximum return seems to work for everyone.

There's many more factors at play in these comps than who's shooting the best ammo.

 

For my Whisper and .260 AI I do reload, but only shoot these in small quantities.

 

If I was to give you a box of factory .223 Black Hills 77's, either fresh red box or remanufactured blue box, you'd go and shoot it without worry, and even if you spent hours loading and testing, it would be doubtful if you could make better.

A few years ago I was on a shooting trip to AZ and we pre ordered some HSM 75gn ammo for a Highpower match.

We'd never shot it before and after a quick zero on steels and 2 sighters at 200yds I then shot my best sitting rapid fire ever, 200-9x.

God only knows what the powder is or even the charge.

 

I couldn't shoot factory ammo like that all the time though, I'd be skint!

 

 

Oh and for the record, I've never even fired a single round of FGMM 168

[terryh]

Good to discuss stuff!

 

Now lets start on about real reloading - BPCR...................... (No, your safe, I would not inflict that 'nerditry'! )

 

Brgds Terry