Do all - what cartridge?

[Ronin]

Ive been asked about the possibilities of making a "do all" rifle.

 

The basic requirements - accurate, capable of shooting light explosive bullets with no pass through on corvid / geese AND also capable of shooting heavier bullets for deer upto and including reds.

 

 

I think its a tall order personally, however, the following spring to mind

 

 

6mm PPC (think its too lightweight for reds IMHO)

 

6mm BR (feeding issues?)

 

6mm Rem

 

243Win

 

6.5x47

 

260 Rem

 

 

Ive deliberately avoided 6.5x284 (too hot)

 

 

 

The guy reloads but doesnt want turned necks.

 

It has to be repeater.

 

Bullets need to be frangible for vermin and big enough for larger deer species.

 

Frangible for vermin is a must as although there is open ground, there is little of no backstop

 

 

 

I see potential issues with throating and seating depths and also twist rates.

 

 

The two over-riding factors are accuracy and abilty to use a varied range of bullets.....

 

 

Oh, ranges are in excess of 300 yds for the vermin.

 

 

 

 

Thoughts anyone?

[Greenbear]

.308

 

Bullets from 110g to 180g

 

Accurate and deadly at whatever it shoots

[Millwall Paul]

6.5 x 55 - 156gn for reds - although 140 will work and you can go really light for other varmints

[JC275]

That is a pretty tall order but, if you take out the 'no pass through on corvids...' bit (hope that your client isn't saying that because he thinks that it will then be safe to shoot crows out of trees?), My money would go on the good old .243 Win. I suppose everyone will go against me for saying this but, the .270 win is another option. A 110 grain V-Max for the varmints and a 130 for everything else. If your client wants to use factory ammo then I think .243 is the way to go. JC

[ejg223]

And if you want all that with one load.. 308 and 155 A-max

 

If the majority is vermin then the 243

 

Don't think one will always hit a crow at 300yds and the bullet will not

always break up or be stopped by a crow.

 

Tell him to get a combination gun, 22-250 in the top barrel and 30-06 in the bottom.

 

edi

[eldon]

Tall order for one gun but as a compromise to suit all this I would go 243. Not the best for reds etc but it depends how good he is at fieldcraft. If he's talking 300 yd reds then 308 would be my choice.

 

Ask him for the likely split on intended use, at least then you can bias the compromise.

 

As others have said, not passing through i.e. no backstop, sounds like a dodgy scenario.

Maybe 22 rimfire would be safer again not ideal for reds though............ only joking.

[sir-slots-alot]

Just dont think that the perfect all round cartridge exsists .. there is usually some comprimise , otherwise we would all have one.

 

For my two-penny-worth , the 243 certainly ticks most of the boxes.

 

Driving a 58 Vmax or 55 Blitzking at 4000fps - devistating on any small varmint and explosive on impact.

 

For deer - I beleive Speer 100 grain soft point do the job very well... or so my mate tells me.

 

 

Alan

[Ronin]

Thanks for the replies so far;

 

 

just to quantify my first post.

 

The rifle is to be used on wide open flat ground there are no back stops for 1000 yds or so around site.

 

There are no shots into trees

 

I understand that he wants explosive performance and accuracy first on vermin, its a second fiddle deer rifle.

 

 

I think anything above 6.5mm will be too large personally.

 

 

 

243 yes accepted good all rounder, but I am looking for sub half MOA accuracy,,,,,,,

 

Still pondering

 

6mm BR - but the feed issue..

 

6mm Rem once the ultimate varminting round.

 

6.5x47 - favourite in my one opinion.

 

260 Rem - again a good runner.

 

243, those I know who load for it find it finicky to load for.

 

 

 

 

 

My own view is its a tall order

[brown dog]

The rifle is to be used on wide open flat ground there are no back stops for 1000 yds or so around site.

 

There are no shots into trees

 

I understand that he wants explosive performance and accuracy first on vermin, its a second fiddle deer rifle.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M230_Chain_Gun

[foxing2night]

95g v/max

6.5x47

Mine are doing 3113 fps average

.461 ten shot groups at 100

.600 at 200yrds five shots

 

Hope that they will blow up on fur and feather??

 

Darrel

[Ronin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M230_Chain_Gun

 

 

Cheers bud

 

 

know where I can get one?

[TC]

6mm BR - but the feed issue..

 

What action are you building on Andy?

 

Mine feeds 70gr Noslers up to 105 Scenars nicely from a Sako 75 mag and I've seen them feed very well from AICS.

 

Doesn't Baldie have a 6mmBR using AICS mags?

 

Rgds

 

Tony

[Jinks]

6mmBR on a Tikka 590/595 action 22-250 magazine, no feed issues whatsoever even with the heavy bullets

1in8 twist, shoot everything from 58s to 107s

 

Not that I've got one of course

 

Cheers,

 

Jinks

[mildot]

Has to be a .243ai

 

Mine is prob the easiest gun ive ever loaded for! the fireforming loads were all under 3/4" regardless of powder or seating depth. Final fireforming load was under 1/2". Then the formed loads were the same!

 

Fires 87gr vmax & 100gr gamekings both @ 3140fps. and this is with a standard sako barrel.

 

I regulary use it at the range and it will consistantly shoot vbulls all day.

[Ronin]

Action;

 

to be decided on once a cartridge is selected.

 

 

Not sure of budget yet, could be secondhand re-barrel but I doubt it.

 

May be Surgeon, Lawton, Barnard SM or BAT repeater or similar.

 

 

I note Laurie is typing furiously,

 

I look forwards to the comprehensive reply

[Elwood]

Andy, I have seen a 6BR cycled with five shots quicker than you can say "quick thing" well almost. The rifle in question was a Sako 75 using the 6PPC magazine (£90).

 

Dasherman is building/built one for me, when I get it I will have a play with cycling rounds through it.

[Laurie]

Andy,

 

I would have thought 6mm before 6.5 purely on the variety and availability of very light (55-75gn) frangible bullets.

 

6BR - as you say, feed issue?

 

6X47 Lapua (6.5X47 necked down, no other change), a bit more oomph than 6BR for heavier bullets on red deer, but should feed OK. Throating issues (also applies to 6BR) - if throated to suit 100-105gn bullets, there's a lot of jump for the 55 varmint jobs. Sub half-MOA isn't impossible under such circumstances, but definitely harder to achieve, and probably getting on for unachievable in the second half of the barrel's life as the throat erodes. You pay for the better performance over 6BR too with a shorter barrel life, but that shouldn't be an insuperable objection in a sporter.

 

Compromise for both 6BR and 6X47L is throated for 90s and slightly slower twist to suit.

 

.243 Win - good old favourite, perfect feed, plenty of performance and who says you can't get sub 0.5-MOA accuracy from it? In the right rifle, it's a plenty accurate cartridge even if not quite at the 6PPC / 6BR level. Downside is 2,000 round barrel life, and not even that for top accuracy. Throating / rifling twist issues arise again of course.

 

However ............. I would question the basic requirement. Not that you can't have a damned good rifle that does several jobs, but there are two problems. One is expectations. I sometimes see rifles being tested at Diggle, on occasions having been returned to the gunsmith as 'unsatisfactory' because the owner (1) expects too much and (2) isn't an experienced enough handloader in any event to get the sub-quarter inch groups he expects even if the rifle is up to it.

 

The second problem is weight. Sure, build a near F-Class rifle that shoots quarter inch itsy-bitty groups for pests but it weighs a ton thanks to the barrel profile, and it's no fun carrying it red deer stalking in the highlands. I'd say have a single shot 6BR for the pests and something like a .260 Rem repeater with Callum Ferguson's short-throat for the deer, built as a medium weight sporter. Do that, and I bet the light rifle gets taken out three or four times as often as the quasi-target job despite its accuracy!

 

Or........maybe even rather than a 6BR pest rifle, a good medium heavy-barrel .204 Ruger for the crows and foxes, or a .22 centrefire.

 

Laurie

[Chris-NZ]

Having the following calibres ( 7-08, 6.5x47, .270 and .308) and also having owned a .260, I can hold my hand on my heart and say I could very happily live with one calibre, namely 6.5x47. No question about its accuracy potential, it has quite adequate grunt to tip over reds and there are frangible bullets for dealing with small stuff.

 

my 2c worth

Chris-NZ

 

PS but as Laurie suggests, a sporter as well as a target gun in the same calibre would be good

[Toby]

6.5x55 gets my vote!

85 grain Sierra HP varminter for vermin

140 grain SP / Partition for deer(or boar over bait in Scandinavia )

Often scarily accurate, good BC and SD bullets and easy on the barrel

260 and 6.5x47 Lapua also great candidates but just young pups compared to the Swede!

[Spitzer]

I really rate the old 6.5x55 but I think the 25-06 is worth a serious look as well, fast, flat shooting,accurate and a bullet range between 80-120 grns seems to fit the bill for most things.

[provarmint]

.

[gareth]

I'll throw in my two pence worth:

 

.243, great round might not be king of the 6mm but might be pushing it on red depending on distance

.25-06 can run slightly heavier bullets than the above

6.5x47 no experiance of this one but what I have read could make it an ideal choice as an all rounder

.270 more for deer than vermin but load it up with some 90gn Sierras and watch them fly

 

ATB Gareth

[gazzar15]

260 Remington quite possibly the best all round cartridge I have owned

[bbrc]

Got to be a 6.5mm or .25 cal, but then consider the BC and greater range of bullet weights then it has to be one of the 6.5mm's.

 

Have used and seen used 6mm/243 plenty and find they are devastating on vermin with varmint bullets and ok on deer with harder and heavier bullet heads but trying to get a varmint bullet and a controlled expansion deer type bullet to group in the same place proved difficult resulting in always seeming to have a rifle that was set up for the wrong ammo all the time.

 

Swapped to 6.5mm and found 95 vmax and various 100gn heads shot in the same point of impact therefore solving the problem and deer shot with a 100gn 6.5mm bullet seemed to fall over better than when shot with a 100gn 6mm head, Frontal area perhaps? I could only guess.

[ChrisF]

I have no clue as to the ideal cal for this Guy .

 

BUT , I have been looking at a 308 class repeater bolt action , I would want to build a hunting rifle ON.

 

And I think I have found IT , its a US made Phoenix , running std AW mags , if you wanted a shorter low profile mag , you could cut down a 10rd one , and use std 10rd ones as spares .

 

Later Chris

 

P.S. Also just found out , that you can also mod the Surgeon to run AW mags , you have to take machine the bottom rails , and the feed ramp .