colin jalland Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 Just a quick one ,after consistent powder weight what would you consider to be the biggest think to work on to reduce ES ? Thanks Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John MH Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 Neck tension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 Colin, Oh, bag of worms in asking this (after 'how do you clean your rifles and when?' 😉). Think neck tension's got be up there in the mix? If you do some digging into history there was a bunch of BR shooters in the Texas that had an indoor range and did a slew of experiments/testing and it came out tops (from memory). Case prep perhaps, annealing, primer 'fit' ?? T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 Neck tension and bullet insertion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 As pops says and annealing.. I had my best ES figures about 2 weeks ago trying 140gr hybrids in my 6.5x47 but only over 3 shots but I'm more than happy with that.. I've know others had a zero ES 🤩 I had the grouping to go with it 😁. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catch-22 Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 2 hours ago, colin jalland said: Just a quick one ,after consistent powder weight what would you consider to be the biggest think to work on to reduce ES ? Thanks Colin Two articles (3rd waiting in the wings) all about this subject on PRB. You probably know this but ES is only one metric to consider and probably isn’t the most important one either. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/11/29/statistics-for-shooters/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 One small point is that you need an accurate and consistent way to measure velocity and ES. The two top choices atm seem to be magneto speed and Labradar. I’ve used them together and got very consistent readings. The same can not be said for my Chrony - light conditions alter the readings a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 9 minutes ago, ds1 said: One small point is that you need an accurate and consistent way to measure velocity and ES. The two top choices atm seem to be magneto speed and Labradar. I’ve used them together and got very consistent readings. The same can not be said for my Chrony - light conditions alter the readings a lot. There is some suggestion that Labradar has about a 4fps SD tolerance for 30 cal rounds. Not brilliant but I find mine useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin jalland Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 17 minutes ago, ds1 said: One small point is that you need an accurate and consistent way to measure velocity and ES. The two top choices atm seem to be magneto speed and Labradar. I’ve used them together and got very consistent readings. The same can not be said for my Chrony - light conditions alter the readings a lot. Yeah i use a Magneto sport which works very well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, colin jalland said: Yeah i use a Magneto sport which works very well may I ask how you know ? I've read a measured test of Magnetospeed at 4fps SD tolerance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin jalland Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 not positive on the accuracy but seams ok ,always works unlike my Chrony which to be honest was a pain to use . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 12 hours ago, No i deer said: As pops says and annealing.. I had my best ES figures about 2 weeks ago trying 140gr hybrids in my 6.5x47 but only over 3 shots but I'm more than happy with that.. I've know others had a zero ES 🤩 I had the grouping to go with it 😁. ES from only three shots?? 😕~Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Reduced ES ? Uniform pull weight.~Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 I only had 3 cartridges left over at that powder charge weight to chrony after group testing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Incidently this load is exactly the same powder charge as my 140gr amax load with exactly the same base to ogive measurements and both shoot very small groups.. Seems like barrel timing is playing it's part in the equation and right on a node at 41.5grs in a 24 inch barrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Reduce ES Case prep All cases - flash hole de burred, primer pocket cut to uniform depth, case length cut to exactly same length, chamfered inside and outside neck Weigh all cases Batch them Use only those of same weight or within a few grains of each other Anneal case necks Tumble Seat primers exactly same depth Weigh powder to lowest possible variance with your scales (mine are .02g resolution) Wipe inside case neck with Sinclair wax (tiny amount) to provide consistent release assuming neck tension is correct with appropriate bushing Seat all bullets same depth (having measured shank length and sorted bullets to same length batches ) Repeat process above every time you reload Using the process above you should attain single digit ES - assuming your chronograph will accurately measure to that resolution Consistency is key to low ES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark II Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 On this subject what would you consider being a acceptable es for target. I know as low as possible but what is good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Single digit - low vertical dispersion at 1000 yd’s for example 1/4 MOA vertical dispersion would be, I suggest the baseline standard in zero wind conditions at that distance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Mark, use a ballistic calculator and change your MV to match the variance you are getting with ES and see how relevant it is at the distances you shoot. For example, 15fps may not be worth loosing sleep over at 200m or 300m but I know for me15fps at 1km makes a 14cm vertical spread before I start adding in other factors. To meet Andy’s criteria of 1/4 moa I need single digit ES ( FPS) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin jalland Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 33 minutes ago, Ronin said: Reduce ES Case prep All cases - flash hole de burred, primer pocket cut to uniform depth, case length cut to exactly same length, chamfered inside and outside neck Weigh all cases Batch them Use only those of same weight or within a few grains of each other Anneal case necks Tumble Seat primers exactly same depth Weigh powder to lowest possible variance with your scales (mine are .02g resolution) Wipe inside case neck with Sinclair wax (tiny amount) to provide consistent release assuming neck tension is correct with appropriate bushing Seat all bullets same depth (having measured shank length and sorted bullets to same length batches ) Repeat process above every time you reload Using the process above you should attain single digit ES - assuming your chronograph will accurately measure to that resolution Consistency is key to low ES \never been very happy with my primer tool and have been thinking of a replacement what would you recommend ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Colin, The combination of the C-21 adjustable pocket uniformer and adjustable primer seater is a good setup IMHO, not found similar products that work as well. Pretty pointless seating the primer to the same depth if the pockets are all different!! 😉 T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 7 hours ago, Andrew said: Reduced ES ? Uniform pull weight.~Andrew I think Andrew raises an excellent point here. We fuss around the reloads but do we give the same attention to the nut behind the trigger? Perfect tools do not make a craftsman (but of course they help). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 K&M primer pocket uniformers come factory set for depth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Little point in pocket uniforming unless primers are sorted for depth too. I attach the SAAMI spec drawing. You can see the allowable tolerances are large - 13thou on depth of primer cup for LRP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark II Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 10 hours ago, Ronin said: Single digit - low vertical dispersion at 1000 yd’s for example 1/4 MOA vertical dispersion would be, I suggest the baseline standard in zero wind conditions at that distance 9 hours ago, ds1 said: Mark, use a ballistic calculator and change your MV to match the variance you are getting with ES and see how relevant it is at the distances you shoot. For example, 15fps may not be worth loosing sleep over at 200m or 300m but I know for me15fps at 1km makes a 14cm vertical spread before I start adding in other factors. To meet Andy’s criteria of 1/4 moa I need single digit ES ( FPS) Thank you for the info it gives me a good starting point as I have a load that is now doing half inch at 100 metres if I pay attention, so it will be interesting to see what the es is once I can arrange to borrow the chap down the club's lab radar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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