Acquiring firearms

[Dougclarke]

Whilst I sit in lockdown I was wondering about getting another rifle, if I put a variation in are you able to purchase a rifle and it to be held by a Gunshop, or is this illegal 

[Roy W]

You can pay a deposit to secure it. They can't take full payment and sell it to you until you have a suitable slot on your FAC

[Dougclarke]

So would it be illegal, or some sort of wrong business if that makes sense

[miki]

You can't take possesion of it unless you have a slot on your cert. Most FEO's are not processing at the moment, is Northants PCC ?

I guess you could 'technically' pay for a rifle at any time, but you can't take it away... WRONG ...

[Roy W]

It would be illegal as it would be selling a firearm to someone not authorised to possess

[miki]

Under sections 1 and 2 of the 1968 Act, it is an offence for a person “to have in their possession or to purchase or acquire” a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 applies or a shotgun (but not shotgun cartridges) without holding the appropriate certificate.

REF: Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf

[Popsbengo]

As other say, if you pay in full, legally it's your property - and for that you need an approved slot on your FAC.  A deposit to secure a future purchase is fine, the firearm isn't your property, it's a contractural arrangement between you and the dealer and he/she retains ownership until you pay in full.  The size of deposit is up for discussion but it can't be 100% and I think I read somewhere that in contract law it would be less than 50% for the item.

[Dougclarke]

Ok I think a variation agreed by the firearms department before I go trudging round looking at new rifles👌

[Popsbengo]

1 minute ago, Dougclarke said:

Ok I think a variation agreed by the firearms department before I go trudging round looking at new rifles👌

Avoids awkward conversations with the dealer should you fail to get your variation !

[Kalahari]

1 hour ago, Popsbengo said:

As other say, if you pay in full, legally it's your property - and for that you need an approved slot on your FAC.  A deposit to secure a future purchase is fine, the firearm isn't your property, it's a contractural arrangement between you and the dealer and he/she retains ownership until you pay in full.  The size of deposit is up for discussion but it can't be 100% and I think I read somewhere that in contract law it would be less than 50% for the item.

Isn't the legal bit "in possession" not actually  "ownership" so paying for it but not taking possession should be legal? Of course if you pay for it and don't get your variation you can't take possession so you will have to get the RFD to sell it on commission so you might take a financial bath.

 

David.

[Roy W]

NPCC guidance to RFDs

It is illegal to complete a sale (accept full payment) for a firearm, Section 1 component part or accessory or shot gun to a person who cannot produce a firearm or shot gun certificate authorising them to acquire the firearm etc. You may only take a deposit on a purchase prior to sight of the relevant certificate giving authority to purchase the firearm.

 

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Good-Practice-Guide-for-Registered-Firearms-Dealers.pdf

 

[Roy W]

1 minute ago, saddler said:

WTF has "continuity ACPO" got to do with official Home Office statements?
ACPO were disbanded by the Home Office for questionable practices - their successor body are not much of an improvement.

I forget, are they a registered charity, which returns an annual profit of around £25M a year, or a private company that returns annual profits of around £25M a year?
Also, they seem to love fancy dress, as NOT being an approved official police body they wear a lot of police style uniforms while issuing statements and press releases

Well stick two fingers up to them and go and buy a firearm without a variation then, if you can find an RFD to sell you one.

I thought this thread was about legalities rather than personal rants? 

[AJW7088]

Hello,

 

In case it assists the OP,  and to confirm what some have said above, there is another specific provision in the Firearms Act 1968 relating to this, at s3(2).  The provision says;

It is an offence for a person to sell or transfer to any other person in the United Kingdom, other than a registered firearms dealer, any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun, unless that other produces a firearm certificate authorising him to purchase or acquire it or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to purchase or acquire it without holding a certificate.

The term "transfer" is defined within s57 as;

“transfer” includes let on hire, give, lend and part with possession, and “transferee” and “transferor” shall be construed accordingly.

This means that the sale cannot lawfully take place until the purchaser can show the appropriately authorised firearm certificate, irrespective of the fact that the purchaser might not take immediate physical possession (meaning that paying for it but not taking possession is still not lawful unless you have the appropriate authority on a firearm certificate).

I hope that helps.

Adrian

[miki]

3 hours ago, Kalahari said:

Isn't the legal bit "in possession" not actually  "ownership" so paying for it but not taking possession should be legal? Of course if you pay for it and don't get your variation you can't take possession so you will have to get the RFD to sell it on commission so you might take a financial bath.

David.

Under sections 1 and 2 of the 1968 Act, it is an offence for a person “to have in their possession or to purchase or acquire” a firearm - which (as I understand it) means that you can't pay for/buy a rifle unless you have authority to posess. The Romalpa clause states that title does not pass untill payment has been made, when at that moment, the goods/rifle is legaly yours. I would surmise that if a deposit is taken (by the seller) then you have entered into a contract of 'intent to purchase' but the goods still 'belong' to the seller. Until you pay in full at which time it belongs to you.

@Popsbengohas it right IMO

The complication is (with a firearm) that if you can't show (the seller - in this case an RFD) that you have legal authority to complete then he (probably) shouldn't accept your money. If you convince him that you have or will have authority to posess and he takes your money on that permise, if you subsequently don't get authority then you would have to rely on his good will to return your cash. That would be the awkward conversation mentioned ......  

[AJW7088]

6 minutes ago, miki said:

Under sections 1 and 2 of the 1968 Act, it is an offence for a person “to have in their possession or to purchase or acquire” a firearm - which (as I understand it) means that you can't pay for/buy a rifle unless you have authority to posess. 

Yes, you (Popsbengo, & Roy W) are right, and s3(2) means that it is also an offence for the seller.

[Miseryguts]

Hi, all the small print seems very open to individual interpretation of nuanced aspects of the various terms used in these transactions. A field day for the legals! I can only speak of my own experiences.

I have a very good relationship with my RFD as I have dealt with him for a good many years. I fancied a specific rifle that was not readily available in this country - I locate one and asked him to get it whilst I got a variation. The deal was that I would recompense any loss incurred should the variation fall through or I changed my mind. Nothing in writing, but we are both gentlemen(I think/hope).

I suppose a difference is that no money changed hands until I collected said rifle.

M in dampish monmouthshire

[les]

I seem to remember somewhere in the dark and distant past that I paid for a firearm in full whilst applying for a 141 variation. I put a rifle in px, and paid the balance, then went home to wait for the variation to come through.

Or perhaps my addled brain is playing tricks again? 

[Kevgun]

Surely the best way to do it, is have a chat with your Firearms Officer agree the variation in principle once you get the Nod, then you can order your Rifle whilst the variation goes through and you get your ticket back. that's what i do.

[Re-Pete]

I asked Fultons at Bisley about holding a rifle against a deposit some time early last year, and they said it wasn't on.................get variation first, then start looking.

Pete

[caerhays sniper]

52 minutes ago, Kevgun said:

Surely the best way to do it, is have a chat with your Firearms Officer agree the variation in principle once you get the Nod, then you can order your Rifle whilst the variation goes through and you get your ticket back. that's what i do.

Doesn’t always happen my local officer said I would get something but licensing office wasn’t so keen

[Popsbengo]

2 hours ago, Kevgun said:

Surely the best way to do it, is have a chat with your Firearms Officer agree the variation in principle once you get the Nod, then you can order your Rifle whilst the variation goes through and you get your ticket back. that's what i do.

A practical way forward however not without risk in my view.  The law is the law and not open to modification by FEOs so if, for example, there was a change of personnel at the Firearms office and someone somewhat less inclined to be friendly, a person (and a dealer) could find themselves in the sh1t.

Contain the urge and get a variation first would seem to be the no-worries solution.

[Mattnall]

4 hours ago, les said:

I seem to remember somewhere in the dark and distant past that I paid for a firearm in full whilst applying for a 141 variation. I put a rifle in px, and paid the balance, then went home to wait for the variation to come through.

Or perhaps my addled brain is playing tricks again? 

As with many things concerning firearms; the police, RFDs and the FAC 'end-user' doesn't always know the law or comply with it fully.

Take distance selling - many dealers don't follow the rules, they are written on the FACs even and breaking FAC conditions affects the holder as well,
Take posting firearms - it doesn't have to go from a dealer, and it doesn't always need to go to an RFD (depending upon circumstances).

The law is so convoluted it needs sorting out, but I can only see any re-write causing more trouble.