Selling privately via RFD rules

[Murphy2para]

Hi Gents

I have sold my .22lr  to a gent in Scotland and agreed RFD transfer, what is the process regarding certificates do I need to get his to fill it in?

Any advice would be great?

most things I’ve read are from 2/3 years ago

 

[Bob57]

28 minutes ago, Murphy2para said:

Hi Gents

I have sold my .22lr  to a gent in Scotland and agreed RFD transfer, what is the process regarding certificates do I need to get his to fill it in?

Any advice would be great?

most things I’ve read are from 2/3 years ago

 

Ideally, I think you need to give it to an rfd who will enter your details into their books, then rfd sends to rfd in Scotland,where it's picked up by whoever's bought it and they will give their details to rfd in Scotland. But there's possibly another way??

[phoenix]

The buyer needs to send his FAC to you so you can check that he has authority to purchase the rifle.

Then you need to complete Table 1 on his certificate where you put the date, your name, details of the rifle (make, model and serial number) your FAC number and finally your signature.

Then you send his FAC back to him.

Then you take the rifle to your RFD and have him send it to the buyers nominated rfd

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

[Murphy2para]

Thanks gents appreciate the replies 

 

[Moorlander]

1 hour ago, phoenix said:

The buyer needs to send his FAC to you so you can check that he has authority to purchase the rifle.

Then you need to complete Table 1 on his certificate where you put the date, your name, details of the rifle (make, model and serial number) your FAC number and finally your signature.

Then you send his FAC back to him.

Then you take the rifle to your RFD and have him send it to the buyers nominated rfd

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

That.

[Mattnall]

It is actually against the guidance to give it to your RFD and then shipped and the receiving RFD does the paperwork and notification.

You are the seller so you should do the paperwork and notifications (RFD paperwork is just register entries to keep his accounts up to date and check the buyer has it on his license).

[Woodlander]

I’ve always posted it via Parcelforce(as a sporting item)to the receiving rfd,notified my FEO of the receiving RFDs number and that it’s no longer on my cert,then sent my cert off to be amended. I’m sure that’s all you need to do,no need to involve and rfd your end. 

[Moorlander]

38 minutes ago, Woodlander said:

I’ve always posted it via Parcelforce(as a sporting item)to the receiving rfd,notified my FEO of the receiving RFDs number and that it’s no longer on my cert,then sent my cert off to be amended. I’m sure that’s all you need to do,no need to involve and rfd your end. 

Very risky and illegal, you have to send firearms via an RFD.

[Bob57]

1 hour ago, Moorlander said:

Very risky and illegal, you have to send firearms via an RFD.

Says who?

So you're saying Woodlanders feo and firearms department have let him commit an illegal act , and not said anything about it !!!

 

[Bob57]

14 hours ago, Mattnall said:

It is actually against the guidance to give it to your RFD and then shipped and the receiving RFD does the paperwork and notification.

You are the seller so you should do the paperwork and notifications (RFD paperwork is just register entries to keep his accounts up to date and check the buyer has it on his license).

Ok, so you're saying it's against guidance to give to an rfd ? So how would you send it??

[Murphy2para]

Buyers happy for me to fill in FAC and return it before sending it through RFD all sorted thanks gents

[Bob57]

On 3/2/2019 at 9:03 PM, phoenix said:

The buyer needs to send his FAC to you so you can check that he has authority to purchase the rifle.

Then you need to complete Table 1 on his certificate where you put the date, your name, details of the rifle (make, model and serial number) your FAC number and finally your signature.

Then you send his FAC back to him.

Then you take the rifle to your RFD and have him send it to the buyers nominated rfd

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

If I was buying a rifle privately, I wouldn't want to send my firearms certificate in the post, to someone I'd never met before and didn't know, I'd take a picture of my relevant authority slot to buy and email that to seller,pay him, then he takes rifle to rfd (already arranged)and gets him to send it to my local rfd (already arranged) where my rfd signs It over to me . Both rfds get paid, simples, you'd think, then again what do I know!!

And doesn't it say on your certificate that any transactions should be face to face?

[Bob57]

3 minutes ago, Murphy2para said:

Buyers happy for me to fill in FAC and return it before sending it through RFD all sorted thanks gents

That's good 👍, glad you're sorted.

[bradders]

6 hours ago, Bob57 said:

If I was buying a rifle privately, I wouldn't want to send my firearms certificate in the post, to someone I'd never met before and didn't know, I'd take a picture of my relevant authority slot to buy and email that to seller,pay him, then he takes rifle to rfd (already arranged)and gets him to send it to my local rfd (already arranged) where my rfd signs It over to me . Both rfds get paid, simples, you'd think, then again what do I know!!

And doesn't it say on your certificate that any transactions should be face to face?

No, because the handling RFD is not the one making the transaction, that is between you (the seller) and them (the buyer)

How many times do we have to go over this? It's as bad as "By 'eck, everything bloody well needs to be bloody proofed"

All Police forces are now insisting the guide is followed

Read here on Page 7

https://www.hampshire.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/central/advice/hampshire/firearms/rfd_guidance_booklet_a5_opt.pdf

[Moorlander]

8 hours ago, Bob57 said:

Says who?

So you're saying Woodlanders feo and firearms department have let him commit an illegal act , and not said anything about it !!!

 

Firstly he`s lying to/ deceiving  the carrier , Parcel Force , only approved account holders can ship firearms with them and they only give approved accounts to RFD`s , so his FEO could revoke his FAC for that , secondly he`s not telling his FEO he`s shipping firearms as sporting goods so more deceit , bye bye FAC if ever a firearm gets lost , a mate works for PF and reckons they are tracked and monitored far more thoroughly that any other parcel. 

 

edit I`m pretty sure if PF found a firearm (and they do randomly check stuff) that was shipped as something else they would firstly call the Police , try and explain that one to the Police.

[Bob57]

2 hours ago, bradders said:

No, because the handling RFD is not the one making the transaction, that is between you (the seller) and them (the buyer)

How many times do we have to go over this? It's as bad as "By 'eck, everything bloody well needs to be bloody proofed"

All Police forces are now insisting the guide is followed

Read here on Page 7

https://www.hampshire.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/central/advice/hampshire/firearms/rfd_guidance_booklet_a5_opt.pdf

Thanks for that bradders, unfortunately I can't download it.

Don't talk to me about bloody proofing😡😀

[Bob57]

1 hour ago, Moorlander said:

Firstly he`s lying to/ deceiving  the carrier , Parcel Force , only approved account holders can ship firearms with them and they only give approved accounts to RFD`s , so his FEO could revoke his FAC for that , secondly he`s not telling his FEO he`s shipping firearms as sporting goods so more deceit , bye bye FAC if ever a firearm gets lost , a mate works for PF and reckons they are tracked and monitored far more thoroughly that any other parcel. 

 

edit I`m pretty sure if PF found a firearm (and they do randomly check stuff) that was shipped as something else they would firstly call the Police , try and explain that one to the Police.

Thanks for that reply moorlander, thats the annoying thing about things like this, is everyone tells you a different story.

So,what could happen if someone took a rifle into a main post office, to get it delivered by pf, and when asked what was in said parcel, person behind counter was told the truth, 'a rifle' and then they took it in to post, who would be in the wrong then??

[Moorlander]

11 minutes ago, Bob57 said:

Thanks for that reply moorlander, thats the annoying thing about things like this, is everyone tells you a different story.

So,what could happen if someone took a rifle into a main post office, to get it delivered by pf, and when asked what was in said parcel, person behind counter was told the truth, 'a rifle' and then they took it in to post, who would be in the wrong then??

The Post Office and Parcel Force are two different companies , PF state:

"Arms and Ammunition All firearms, other than low-powered air weapons sent within the UK (air rifles, air guns and air pistols), including imitations and antiques; paint-ball or toy guns; taser guns; components of firearms and all other items similar to, or resembling, the foregoing are prohibited. All ammunition other than lead pellets and other air gun and airsoft projectiles is also prohibited."

So it is quite clear , "I didnt know " wont wash in court or with your FEO.

As we know there is an exemption for RFD`s who have an account , if you were honest at the counter , and you must be, about what you are sending then I`m sure they`d refuse it , the PO always ask me whats in the packet when I post stuff .

[Moorlander]

44 minutes ago, saddler said:

I've taken guns into several different Post Offices in the past to ship to the buyers RFD, myself.

Normally not a big problem, as long as you ONLY ship by Royal Mail and NOT ParcelFarce.

Only had a problem once, when even the manager refused to accept it "...coz its illegal to send guns...!!!" They had me escorted out by the police (who then checked my paperwork & the guns, checked the Royal Mail website, helped me box it all up again, escorted me BACK INTO the post office & tore the staff a new arsehole for not knowing their jobs & wasting police time.)

HINT when wrapping: Boxes have to be within a specified length for Royal Mail, but TUBES can be a good bit longer...so get an old carpet roll inner or similar tube. The leaflet on Prohibited & Restricted Goods has full details of sending guns yourself....

Interesting , I didnt know that , the thing I`d check out is the "may be sent in compliance with UK law" , that could take some reading up but I guess it means they have to go to an RFD but then I doubt the PO check that, what do they charge for one rifle ? 

[Bob57]

20 minutes ago, Moorlander said:

Interesting , I didnt know that , the thing I`d check out is the "may be sent in compliance with UK law" , that could take some reading up but I guess it means they have to go to an RFD but then I doubt the PO check that, what do they charge for one rifle ? 

£28

[Moorlander]

5 minutes ago, saddler said:

last time posted, about £19

The stipulation is MINIMUM by First Class, surprisingly....no mandatory RMSD or NEXT DAY!

I wouldn't trust the normal service they offer , not even for a broom handle let alone a gun , I reckon you would be part responsible if you didn't take out the best tracking service they offer.

 

Bradders link for RFD`s states

 

"Carriers It is also very important that due diligence is taken when making arrangements for the transportation of firearms. If you intend to transport firearms and ammunition yourself, it is very important that reasonable precautions are taken to ensure there is no unauthorised access to the firearms and ammunition. Please consult the Home Office Security Handbook 2005. By virtue of Section 9 of Firearms Act 1968, as amended, carriers are exempt from the need to hold a firearm/shotgun certificate and can possess Section 1 and 2 firearms and ammunition in the course of their business.

However, Section 14 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 obligates the carrier to take reasonable precautions to ensure the security of all firearms or ammunition. The transportation of prohibited firearms and ammunition can only be undertaken by carriers who have been specifically authorised by the Home Office. (Section 5 Transport Authority Holders) Please note, although firearms dealers are permitted to possess expanding ammunition (which is prohibited) in the course of their business this exemption does not extend to carriers. Therefore, you need to ensure expanding ammunition is only transported by a carrier authorised by the Home Office to possess prohibited ammunition in the course of their business. •

The quantities and description of firearms and ammunition accepted for sale, repair, test, proof, cleaning, storage, destruction or other purpose; with the names and addresses of the transferors and the dates of the transactions. •

The quantities and description of firearms and ammunition sold or transferred with the names and addresses of the purchasers or transferees and, (except in cases where the purchaser or transferee is a registered firearms dealer) the areas in which the firearms were issued, and the dates of the transactions. •

The quantities and description of firearms and ammunition in possession for sale or transfer at the date of the last stocktaking or other such date in each year as may be specified in the register. Section 40 (3) requires that every entry required by subsection (1) of this section to be made in the register, shall be made within 24 hours after the transaction to which it relates took place and, in the case of a sale or transfer, every person to whom that subsection applies shall at the time of the transaction require the purchaser or transferee, if not known to him, to give details sufficient for identification and shall immediately enter the said details in the register. To comply with Section 40(3), in most situations which require the production of a certificate, it should be straightforward for the details of the person to be recorded from their certificate. "

[Mattnall]

17 hours ago, Bob57 said:

Ok, so you're saying it's against guidance to give to an rfd ? So how would you send it??

Read the complete post. 🙄

You cannot sell it and expect the RFDs to sort out the paperwork for you.

[Bob57]

1 hour ago, Mattnall said:

Read the complete post. 🙄

You cannot sell it and expect the RFDs to sort out the paperwork for you.

I did read the complete post, so is guidance absolute?

[bradders]

3 minutes ago, Bob57 said:

I did read the complete post, so is guidance absolute?

Crack on and interpret it as you wish to suit your own ends

The very fact the guidance was published to remind dealers what the firearms act is and laws are is academic, it’s best to completely ignore everything that has been said already and just do as you want

[Bob57]

3 minutes ago, bradders said:

Crack on and interpret it as you wish to suit your own ends

The very fact the guidance was published to remind dealers what the firearms act is and laws are is academic, it’s best to completely ignore everything that has been said already and just do as you want

It's got nothing to do with what I want, I'm not selling or sending, Murphy2para is, I just wondered what is the right way to go about it as there seems to be different views .