1/4 MOA Guaranteed !

[SWShooter]

Any builders in the UK offer this guarantee?

 

http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek017/

 

 

[bewsh]

" Please note: we also offer a 1/4″ guarantee for 220 Swift, 22-250, and .243 Ackley Improved chamberings. However, because of the rapid throat erosion associated with these calibers, particularly when the barrel is not allowed to cool adequately between strings, our guarantee is limited to 250 rounds for these three chamberings."

[meles meles]

Do they offer to come and pull the trigger for you on the range?

[baldie]

3 shots are not, and never will be, a group.

[1967spud]

as dave says 5 shots is a group 3 shots is a gathering

[1066]

3 shots are not, and never will be, a group.

Ahh yes, girly groups.

Interesting and amusing analysis of three shot "groups" here.

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218

[gbal]

There can be no disagreement that statistically,a larger sample is superior to a smaller sample when one wants to predict from the sample (here 3 or 5 shots) to the 'population' (what all the shots will be).

But it also depends a little on the amount of dispersion between shots that the rifles intrinsic accuracy allows. For a known precision rifle-such as a tested Bench Rest shooting very consistent .25 groups,then 3 shots is a sounder base for further prediction-eg with a new bullet-than are 3 shots from a rifle which can shoot .25 or .5,and has done both regularly. For this second rifle,5 shots are a relatively poor sample-it lacks consistent stable performance,unlike the first rifle.

 

But 5 are a bit better than 3 in general.But most rifles are just not Bench Rest consistent,so 5 shots isn't enough anyhow.....several 5 shot 'groups' if you must,are a whole lot better.

Just look at how heavy gun 10 shot groups are larger than light gun 5 shot groups-and those are both from very intrinsically accurate rifles.

Statistics is a probability thing,and so are most rifles-the really good ones nearly always deliver X groups,the average sometimes do,and often not,the poor ones occasionally do,but typically are much poorer.

 

One swallow makes neither a summer,or a drunk.

Much the same is so of rifles.

More shots are always informative,and 5-let alone three-let alone 2...... yes,it really s that basic.

 

And while I'm on this sopapbox,if you keep a super small group as evidence of your super stick,then the hard truth is that all the other groups that are not so good means either that the one super was a fluke-it happens- and/or that all your other groups show how poor your shooting is,compared to what that rifle can do.

Bit like the one shot in five that hits the fly-when the other four are miscellaneously scattered about- don't flaunt it,hide it-pure luck. IT is as impressive as a one shot 'group' and is statistically equivalent. If your fly patch came from a hit where the other four shots were within say,four inches,that is deserving (it's still luck within the 4 inches,but the four inches are not luck-they are very good shooting-like a 5 shot group.)

Oh that prizes were marked as skill or luck ones-actually that winners were honest enough to realise it-thoufh many are,"probably".

gbal

[dannywayoflife]

There was a discussion about this on snipers hide a while ago I'm sure the out come was that3 shots was the precision of the rifle and 5 was the man. I've always shot 5 round groups personally and as Gbal says several 5 shot groups really tell you what a system is capable of.

[gbal]

Danny, if so it's a misunderstanding,or misuse of terms. "Precision' means replicable-so 5 shots are a better,though not very good ,indicator.

Accuracy is hitting intended point-can be one shot ,but has to be replicable, which is what a group does-or not-though for hunting rifles,it's really first shot accuracy that matters (which isn't quite the same thing,not least as it's not cold barrel first shot for the subsequent four-encouraging though such a group might be.)

Statistical sampling,reliability and validity are generally poorly appreciated. However pleased one might be at hitting one clay pigeon at 1000y,missing several more than one is far more informative!

Humans have a tendency to over value positives,even one,and severely undervalue negatives,even lots.

One way to look at it is,do the misses shoot back? :-)

[dannywayoflife]

It was quite a heated thread if memory serves I think it was with regards a accuracy an accuracy guarantee of TacOps rifles I think. Personally Id always take a multiple set of 5 shot groups over a single 3 shot group everyday! Which is why I recently averaged out all the group sizes of 5x5 of my new target load. Over the 5x5 groups The load averaged .63" the limiting factor is deffo me!!

[SWShooter]

3 shot or 5 shot , guaranteed 1/4 MOA is quiet a claim , I`d not seen it before I came across that site.

[dannywayoflife]

TacOps Guaruntee 1/4 MOA with factory ammo

[SWShooter]

TacOps Guaruntee 1/4 MOA with factory ammo

 

Los Angeles is a bit far

[dannywayoflife]

Yes it's a long way! I'd still like one though!

[gbal]

(Clay Spencer guaranteed 1/4 moa Hog rifles)......"most have been built on blueprinted Remington 700 actions".

 

Wasn't there some discussion on this practice on here fairly recently?

 

gbal

[Swarovski1]

3 or 5 shot groups with me, depends how I feel, if the holes are touching or cutting is what I am after, if I put 3 in a bughole I usually put a few more down there because I know I am gonna mess it up lol, it is nice when you shoot a bughole, makes all the reloading worth while.

[Big Al]

3 shots are not, and never will be, a group.

 

What are they then Dave?

 

Which would you be happier with in a rifle, a 3 shot cloverleaf under 1/4" or a 5 shot 1/2" group, Im not being flippant here but genuinely interested in your reasoning.

[1967spud]

 

What are they then Dave?

 

Which would you be happier with in a rifle, a 3 shot cloverleaf under 1/4" or a 5 shot 1/2" group, Im not being flippant here but genuinely interested in your reasoning.

id be happy with the 5 shot 1/2 group as there will be a three shot clover leaf with in it if you pick the right three

[gbal]

Al,it's pretty simple really-anyone who is thrilled by a 3 shot 1/4 inch performance may well living in a false world,as the next two shots might well have gone to 1/2 inch-still OK for many.

 

Quite simply,you do not know the true performance with 3 shots,2 more and it's still 1/4,very good.

Now do it again.And again.

Bullets out the group might be flyers,but might be the truth too.

 

Of course,as before,5 shots is just more confidence inducing about the true performance whatever it is-than 3-it's a 'better test',whatever the result-common sense on this occasion is a good guide.

 

For your question,which is prefered-well that's a matter of reality checking,as above....

 

BUT if I was only shooting one shot,maybe two (typical varminting) at small targets,I'd "choose" the 3 shot (indeed 2 shot) 1/4 rifle,providing this was consistent.There just won't ever be a need for that performance to be sustained over 5 shot-and as the choice is 1/2,that's worse,as occasionally the shot(s) that count will be on the edge of the larger group,if shooting continued.

 

For competition shooting,new rifle that does 1/4 for 5 shots will be needed.

 

For most club/casual shooting it's unlikely to be noticed,given the other variables!

 

For varminting,of course,top priority is that first shot cold bore goes where you want it.Then you don't fire any more.

 

g

[Borisserge]

I think the conversation with either a 3, 5 or 5x5 group with a human operating the controls (ie trying to keep the rifle on target), and our ability to produce consistent rounds is one thing, but I'm sure the rifle company in question are playing differently.

Their idea is probably closer to a barrelled action clamped in large piece of billet alloy, tightened around the barrel, bolted to a nice large concrete plinth.

 

Now the only variables are ammo and a barrel.......

[1967spud]

i shoot bench rest at top level in the uk i know for a fact if my rifle was garanteed .250 aggs all day long id becalled TGP or Bruce

[mole-e30]

i shoot bench rest at top level in the uk i know for a fact if my rifle was garanteed .250 aggs all day long id becalled TGP or Bruce

Thanks Spud!

[The Gun Pimp]

Yes - quarter MOA is a bold claim to make but it got our attention.

 

Really, there are too many variables - set-up, ammo, nut behind the butt, conditions etc. to guarantee quarter MOA.

 

I would reckon the way it works - you order a rifle, they build it and shoot a quarter MOA group with it and give you the target - doesn't mean the new owner will achieve that.

[mole-e30]

I would echo what Vince says.

 

My 100 yard BR rifle will on a good day shoot less than 0.25", however it has shot groups bigger than that, even at the last comp it shot a group of 0.5xx"

 

I would hesitate to say that the rifle will shoot 0.25" all day any day.

 

That could be down to the rifle, load or the nut behind the butt or a combination of all of them.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Bruce

[gbal]

Clay Spencer does put some conditions on the 'guarantee'-which essentially are what Vince and Bruce suggest,though don't explicitly say: the chamber has to be one of the 'accuracy' ones (like 6PPC or 6BR),and with at least partially specified loads. That's fair enough.

 

The rifle will be supplied with a three shot group it did shoot- satisfying the intrinsic potential of the guarantee;likely shot under very good conditions-fair enough.

 

There is no suggestion that the guarantee means anyone anywhere with any ammo will shoot nothing but .25 groups (clearly unfulfillable);but that isn't promised.....there will be evidence that the rifle at least once shot 3 in .25 .

That is still probably a 'guarantee' that most rifle makers do not give,but has to be fairly judged for what it is,not any mis -representation of what Spencer offers.

 

gbal