Loaded magazine transportation question

[Sapper811]

Quick question. A friend has questioned if loaded magazines can be transported at the same time as a rifle in a car. This came about when someone at his club queried him taking 6 PMAG's each with 20 rounds of 5.56 in the same vehicle as his AR ( and all his other range kit ).

 

The magazines were in a separate range bag in the front of the car whilst the rifle in the slip was in the boot ( both out of sight )

 

Am i right in thinking that normal ( sensible ) security arrangements ( as above ) are standard practice as normal, or is there a specific clause / requirement within the F/ Act that states no loaded magazines ?

 

 

 

thanks

[David Hancock]

My understanding is and the practice I pursue - and this is from an air rifle basis - is that if pellets are loaded within a (detachable) magazine, and said magazine is in your pocket / bag / whatever, outside the area of your permission then the air rifle is classed as an armed weapon.

 

BFTO states - Airguns must not be loaded in public places. This includes having pellets in a magazine near the gun. It is now illegal to carry an airgun in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse.

 

With regards to rimfiire and centrefire, a loaded magazine ANYWHERE other than the boundaries of one's permission is a total no no.

 

As for separating ammunition from rifle / stock from barrel / bolt from rifle whilst in transit - or stopping at a service station for a coffee - sheer common sense should prevail.

 

 

[Sapper811]

My understanding is and the practice I pursue - and this is from an air rifle basis - is that if pellets are loaded within a (detachable) magazine, and said magazine is in your pocket / bag / whatever, outside the area of your permission then the air rifle is classed as an armed weapon. So an air rifle in the boot of the car is classed as loaded if the loaded magazine is in a bag in the front passenger footwell as you drive to your permission / range ?

 

BFTO states - Airguns must not be loaded in public places. This includes having pellets in a magazine near the gun. It is now illegal to carry an airgun in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse.

 

With regards to rimfiire and centrefire, a loaded magazine ANYWHERE other than the boundaries of one's permission is a total no no. Ah but is this detailed within the F/Act ?

 

As for separating ammunition from rifle / stock from barrel / bolt from rifle whilst in transit - or stopping at a service station for a coffee - sheer common sense should prevail. Fully agree

 

 

[John MH]

A detachable magazine is just a box for storing ammunition when not attached to a firearm.

 

I would not recommend transporting a firearm with a filled box magazine attached as, the firearm with a filled magazine attached could be considered 'Loaded'; if the magazine is detached the firearm is 'Unloaded', it is not 'clear' until the chamber has been checked to empty.

 

Sounds like interference from a busy body with nothing better to do than make up rules that aren't required.

[bradders]

A detachable magazine is just a box for storing ammunition when not attached to a firearm.

 

I would not recommend transporting a firearm with a filled box magazine attached as, the firearm with a filled magazine attached could be considered 'Loaded'; if the magazine is detached the firearm is 'Unloaded', it is not 'clear' until the chamber has been checked to empty.

 

Sounds like interference from a busy body with nothing better to do than make up rules that aren't required.

I don't consider a box magazine to be any different to a stripper clip, and no one seems to have issues with those.

Likewise, a single shot rifle and a loose round in the pocket could be considered the same

[Sapper811]

A detachable magazine is just a box for storing ammunition when not attached to a firearm.

 

I would not recommend transporting a firearm with a filled box magazine attached as, the firearm with a filled magazine attached could be considered 'Loaded'; if the magazine is detached the firearm is 'Unloaded', it is not 'clear' until the chamber has been checked to empty.

 

Sounds like interference from a busy body with nothing better to do than make up rules that aren't required. My thoughts also from the start !

[gbal]

 

My understanding is and the practice I pursue - and this is from an air rifle basis - is that if pellets are loaded within a (detachable) magazine, and said magazine is in your pocket / bag / whatever, outside the area of your permission then the air rifle is classed as an armed weapon. So an air rifle in the boot of the car is classed as loaded if the loaded magazine is in a bag in the front passenger footwell as you drive to your permission / range ?

 

BFTO states - Airguns must not be loaded in public places. This includes having pellets in a magazine near the gun. It is now illegal to carry an airgun in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse.

 

With regards to rimfiire and centrefire, a loaded magazine ANYWHERE other than the boundaries of one's permission is a total no no. Ah but is this detailed within the F/Act ?

 

As for separating ammunition from rifle / stock from barrel / bolt from rifle whilst in transit - or stopping at a service station for a coffee - sheer common sense should prevail. Fully agree

 

The phrase "sheer common sense" is not used .On the front page of a FAC condition 4() reads :

"WHERE A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION...IS IN TRANSIT...REASONABLE PRECAUTIONS MUST BE TAKEN FOR THE SAFE CUSTODY OF THE FIREARM OR THE AMMUNITION".

 

Gbal

[gbal]

The phrase "sheer common sense" is not used .On the front page of a FAC condition 4() reads :

"WHERE A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION...IS IN TRANSIT...REASONABLE PRECAUTIONS MUST BE TAKEN FOR THE SAFE CUSTODY OF THE FIREARM OR THE AMMUNITION".

Gbal

4( emocion won't edit out-not intended!

[brown dog]

Don't try applying common sense to it!

 

 

UK case law has established that having a filled magazine and a firearm, even when separated, in a public place (and case law establishes that the inside of your car is a public place) constitutes having a loaded weapon in a public place.

Don't drive anwhere that you are not authorised to shoot with filled magazines - you will be breaking the law.

[camo304]

The phrase "sheer common sense" is not used .On the front page of a FAC condition 4( ) reads :

"WHERE A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION...IS IN TRANSIT...REASONABLE PRECAUTIONS MUST BE TAKEN FOR THE SAFE CUSTODY OF THE FIREARM OR THE AMMUNITION".

 

Gbal

So having a load mag away from the rifle is fine then? Mag in one pocket and bolt in other, rifle in the boot.

[camo304]

The phrase "sheer common sense" is not used .On the front page of a FAC condition 4( ) reads :

"WHERE A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION...IS IN TRANSIT...REASONABLE PRECAUTIONS MUST BE TAKEN FOR THE SAFE CUSTODY OF THE FIREARM OR THE AMMUNITION".

 

Gbal

So having a load mag away from the rifle is fine then? Mag in one pocket and bolt in other, rifle in the boot.

 

Don't try applying common sense to it!

 

 

UK case law has established that having a filled magazine and a firearm, even when separated, in a public place (and case law establishes that the inside of your car is a public place) constitutes having a loaded weapon in a public place.

 

Don't drive anwhere that you are not authorised to shoot with filled magazines - you will be breaking the law.

Take it that it is not ok then??

[brown dog]

So having a load mag away from the rifle is fine then? Mag in one pocket and bolt in other, rifle in the boot.

 

No

 

Read my post just before yours

[camo304]

 

No

 

Read my post just before yours

Ye seen it

[camo304]

So whats classed as reasonable percautions??

[Orka Akinse]

The fundamental question is simple: Why load a magazine then travel to where your going to shoot?

[kent]

So whats classed as reasonable percautions??

Its for you to prove in court that's what it is. So many variables as to what is "reasonable" under differing prevailing conditions

[baldie]

"Reasonable precautions when transporting " means the firearms or ammunition must be stored out of sight, ie in a glove compartment or a car boot/rear of van, out of sight of the public, and the vehicle must be securely locked. These are somewhere in the Act/guidelines, and in doing so, you have complied with the law. Bolts must be removed from rifles and stored separately.

[snc_2010]

Don't try applying common sense to it!

 

 

UK case law has established that having a filled magazine and a firearm, even when separated, in a public place (and case law establishes that the inside of your car is a public place) constitutes having a loaded weapon in a public place.

 

Don't drive anwhere that you are not authorised to shoot with filled magazines - you will be breaking the law.

 

 

Name the cases please.

[snc_2010]

"Reasonable precautions when transporting " means the firearms or ammunition must be stored out of sight, ie in a glove compartment or a car boot/rear of van, out of sight of the public, and the vehicle must be securely locked. These are somewhere in the Act/guidelines, and in doing so, you have complied with the law. Bolts must be removed from rifles and stored separately.

 

Show where it says it in the act (and/or guidelines) please.

[brown dog]

 

 

Name the cases please.

 

You going to pay me my consultancy rate?

 

Try finding out for yourself.

 

[John MH]

Well sounds total broccoli (broccoli is not what I typed, is there a swear filter in use? )to me and if argued again in court that a single shot bolt action and a loose round in a separate pocket of a AIM Drag Bag is no different to a magazine fed rifle carried with a filled magazine in a separate pocket of an AIM Drag Bag.

 

But the law is an ass sometimes so, so be it.

 

I do remember many years ago that when going to the range for an SLR shoot we used to have to travel with rifles on one bus/lorry and rifle bolts, as well as ammunition, on another. Now its just a case of separate transport for the rifles and ammo.

[gbal]

The fundamental question is simple: Why load a magazine then travel to where your going to shoot?

The fundamental question is simple: Why load a magazine then travel to where your going to shoot?

Quite so.

The shooter's convenience is NOT a 'reasonable precaution',Au contraire,it is an assist to anyone stealing the rifle.That would not be the intention,but it might suggest a lack of thought about "reasonable precautions''.

Gbal

[John MH]

A reasonable precaution would to not take a gun with you, its where the line is drawn.

 

Are you not allowed to have ammo in a bag with you? If the intention is to prevent the theft of both, ammunition and firearm, together the should never be left unattended, if they are for any reason then the most convenient way to prevent unauthorised use by the ill disposed would be to keep the bolt on your person if, for example, you left the car containing your firearm unattended. I still find the suggestion that a detached filled magazine in a car, or any other place, with a firearm is, in law, considered 'loaded'.

 

What is the legal definition of a loaded firearm?

[gbal]

Well sounds total broccoli (broccoli is not what I typed, is there a swear filter in use? )to me and if argued again in court that a single shot bolt action and a loose round in a separate pocket of a AIM Drag Bag is no different to a magazine fed rifle carried with a filled magazine in a separate pocket of an AIM Drag Bag.

 

But the law is an ass sometimes so, so be it.

 

I do remember many years ago that when going to the range for an SLR shoot we used to have to travel with rifles on one bus/lorry and rifle bolts, as well as ammunition, on another. Now its just a case of separate transport for the rifles and ammo.

 

 

Does it not seem clear enough that the basic point is the same-theft of the aim bag puts a loaded firearm in the wrong hands?The consequences may be more serious if more shots are subsequently fired,but that is not the point the law is making here.

 

The FAC condition of course applies,as it specifically states,to when the firearm and ammunition are in transit.If you have neither with you in transit,the issue of reasonable precautions for them just does not arise.

 

Some may well find the 'loaded mag' etc somewhat perplexing,but the the law seems to be trying to minimise undesirable events- loaded firearms in the wrong hands-without restrictions that effectively prohibit 'in transit' for the legitimate certificate holder.Seems to me the balance is not unreasonable,and sheer common sense should also be deployed.

 

Gbal

.

[brown dog]

It's only case law until someone else gets a different court outcome.

 

Right now English case law has:

 

Inside of private car in a public place = public place.

Inside of a private car in a private place = private place.

Loaded magazine with firearm = loaded firearm

 

So, loaded magazine in your pocket, with rifle in your car boot whilst on the public highway or in any other public place (eg tesco's car park) on the way to/from your shoot = loaded firearm in a public place.

 

 

There's no point in debating the logic of it.

 

 

 

 

The only way it'd change is someone getting a different outcome in court - in court.