Loaded magazine transportation question

[John MH]

 

Section 19 of the Firearms Act 1968 makes it an offence for someone to have with them a loaded shotgun, a loaded air weapon, or any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on the person).

 

Going to or from your permission is of course lawful and reasonable

 

 

As is transit from A (Home) to B (Any place where you have lawful authority to shoot). However, sensible precautions should prevail and in an ideal world firearms and ammunition (whether in boxes, bags, magazines or stripper clips) should be transported separately, but for the vast majority of FAC holders thats just not practical.

[gbal]

As is transit from A (Home) to B (Any place where you have lawful authority to shoot). However, sensible precautions should prevail and in an ideal world firearms and ammunition (whether in boxes, bags, magazines or stripper clips) should be transported separately, but for the vast majority of FAC holders thats just not practical.

Yes John (and Camo)-as per FAC condition 4( it is OK.provided reasonable precautions are taken.The condition does not suggest separate transport (can't see how that could be ideal or even possible for many solitary stalkers/varminters,but since it is not required,we do not need to consider it-very likely the law recognised that it would effectively prevent such shooting,and did not wish to do that.) Reasonable precautions might include such as : no loaded mags,bolt separate if reasonably doable,gear concealed from view,never left unlocked etc-common sense,really,why would anyone not do this,or feel aggrieved at such easy precautons,in their own interests too??)

 

As I asked before,just what is the problem?

Gbal

[John MH]

But the detached filled magazine thing is still broccoli.

[brown dog]

In our world a magazine is just a box for carrying the rounds of ammunition but with criminal use of firearms a loaded magazine demonstrates a preparation to use the firearm. If you are unsure don't do it.

 

I think that's the clearest explanation to date of the division between a law abiding shooter's perception of common sense and courtroom 'logic' determining whether someone is ready to brass stuff up. In the CPS sentencing guidelines there's a scale of 'dangerouseness' for the criminal use of firearms; loaded gets you more porridge than unloaded. Gun, magazine, but bullets not in magazine gets less porridge. Gun but no bullets gets you less porridge again. Gun for which bullets are no longer available gets you even less and so on.

 

The reasonableness thing is pretty clear (to me), that's how all our laws work. Can't see the value from making deductions about gunshops having ammo and guns in the same place. Assuming they diligently follow mandated and reasonable precautions, then, given the nature of their legal business that's demonstrably reasonable.

 

Bottom line: Look forward to one of the "but a magazine's just a container" team putting the time, money and stress into creating new case law

[John MH]

Whats all this broccoli stuff about?

[brown dog]

Try a tourettes outburst: curly kale deciduous tree that which promotes growth and vigour broccoli

[John MH]

Try a tourettes outburst: curly kale deciduous tree that which promotes growth and vigour broccoli

 

[gbal]

But the detached filled magazine thing is still broccoli.

 

Agreed! sometimes it's just easier say you are a vegetarian,and comply as it is cost free-but you do not need to completely overhaul your private lexicon-sometimes,as Alice said " a word means what I say it means,neither more nor less".

The same author wrote Jabberwocky,I believe. Let the slithy toves have their say,when it translates operationally into plain common sense,and allows us to shoot relatively unencumbered .There is no threat to our shooting health in taking 'reasonable precautions'.

 

"A cigar by any other name would still smoke as sweet",as Freud famously said to Shakespeare.

 

Gone to the range.

gbal

[Swamp Donkey]

Reply i got this morning

Morning Andy,

I see no reason what so ever that this will be a problem as its covered under sec 19 of the Firearms Act.

 

Section 19 of the Firearms Act 1968 makes it an offence for someone to have with them a loaded shotgun, a loaded air weapon, or any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on the person).

 

Going to or from your permission is of course lawful and reasonable

BASC

There we go, the law does not differentiate between loaded or not with firearms, you need good reason and lawful excuse to have the gun, with ammo. Simples.

Not 'loaded' or otherwise as in the case of a shotgun or air weapon.

Personally, I wouldn't have rounds in a blind box under the bolt, but I will carry five in the mag ready for when I get on the farm. I need good reason (foxing etc on farm) and lawful permission (FAC) to posses the weapon with suitable ammo, but nothing in law makes any point of wether or not the rifle being loaded or not, just if you have ammo with it, that may be in a cardboard box, stripper clips, or a detachable mag.

An air rifle, or shotgun, loaded in a public place is an offence, it says so, without reasonable and lawful excuse etc, but with 'any firearm (wether loaded or not) together with ammunition.' The offence isn't 'having a loaded firearm', it is 'having a firearm with suitable ammunition' in a public place, so it should make no difference how the ammo is stored/carried. Up the spout, or locked away, it is still ammo, and still a firearm.

 

Pete

[camo304]

 

As is transit from A (Home) to B (Any place where you have lawful authority to shoot). However, sensible precautions should prevail and in an ideal world firearms and ammunition (whether in boxes, bags, magazines or stripper clips) should be transported separately, but for the vast majority of FAC holders thats just not practical.

That is correct

[brown dog]

There we go, the law does not differentiate between loaded or not with firearms, you need good reason and lawful excuse to have the gun, with ammo. Simples.

Not 'loaded' or otherwise as in the case of a shotgun or air weapon.

Personally, I wouldn't have rounds in a blind box under the bolt, but I will carry five in the mag ready for when I get on the farm. I need good reason (foxing etc on farm) and lawful permission (FAC) to posses the weapon with suitable ammo, but nothing in law makes any point of wether or not the rifle being loaded or not, just if you have ammo with it, that may be in a cardboard box, stripper clips, or a detachable mag.

An air rifle, or shotgun, loaded in a public place is an offence, it says so, without reasonable and lawful excuse etc, but with 'any firearm (wether loaded or not) together with ammunition.' The offence isn't 'having a loaded firearm', it is 'having a firearm with suitable ammunition' in a public place, so it should make no difference how the ammo is stored/carried. Up the spout, or locked away, it is still ammo, and still a firearm.

 

Pete

 

Pete, there is a difference between statute law and case law.

 

 

CPS guidance on firearms offences (these are the people taking the first step in deciding how to translate statute law into 'how we'll actually do it' which will then become case law once the court has decided who was right, you or the CPS). The condition of your firearm absolutely affects how you will be dealt with, even though it isn't spelt out in the statute. Statute law can't cover every possible conceivable eventuality - hence 'case law' which fills in the gaps:

Consideration should always be given to the merits of charging an offence contrary to sections 16, 16A, 17 or 18 Firearms Act 1968. All the circumstances surrounding the incident should be considered, with particular regard to the following factors:

• Admissions or explanation given by the defendant in interview;
• Whether the weapon was real;
• Whether the weapon was loaded;
• The imminence of any probable use;
• Whether the victim or any other person present believed that the weapon was real; and
• Whether the weapon was associated with other criminal activity.

 

[kent]

"Reasonable precautions when transporting " means the firearms or ammunition must be stored out of sight, ie in a glove compartment or a car boot/rear of van, out of sight of the public, and the vehicle must be securely locked. These are somewhere in the Act/guidelines, and in doing so, you have complied with the law. Bolts must be removed from rifles and stored separately.

Brown Dog gives a perfect description of "reasonable" - it starts with a jury! bolts can be in or out of guns, depends what is reasonable under the circumstances. Think semi auto in keepers truck. Is it reasonable for him to remove the bolt when he calls in the village store for a pack of fags or a coke in a more rural area? How about locking everything up but leaving them in the car on a city centre car park all night? and how the heck do you lock a landrover securely anyway? the things are as bad as a old school locker! LOL. I have had this bolt in or bolt out thing debate with my own FEO and the result is its down to be to prove I was reasonable if anything happens

[tackb]

I've just woke up , nodded off reading this thread.

 

Have I missed anything ?

[camo304]

Nar you missed nowt that we don't already know now.

[Grouse]

Ran this question past a very experienced countryside lawyer, which many sporting estates use when 'keepers go to court.

 

I was told there is no law/no reason saying a detached magazine needs to be empty when travelling on the highway, it is not a firearm, just a carrying/delivery device.

[MrCetrizine]

The last time I had a visit from my FLO, he checked my ammo amounts and most of it was in magazines in my safe. He never questioned it.

[Breacher]

Its been mentioned already but nobody seems to have taken any notice.

 

"Loaded" has nothing to do with it. There is no offence of having a loaded firearm in a public place. The offence is having a firearm with suitable ammunition in a public place without good reason.

 

So whether a magazine is involved is a moot point.

 

There is nothing in case law that I can find that changes this. I can also find nothing in guidance regarding loaded magazines.