F/TR Varmint/Heavy Sporter/Tactical Discipline?

[brown dog]

Continuing my idle thoughts from the 'long range calibres' thread. (And this is nothing more than me thinking out loud! )

 

SITUATION

 

Rifles that are successful at current F/TR competition are indistinguishable from open class rifles (less calibre!). They are purpose built for that competition and represent a wallet/arms race that excludes the casual competitor from any prospect of success using a conventional rifle of Varmint/Heavy Sporter/Tactical type.

 

IDEA

 

[Much as per the reported creation of air rifle Hunter Field Target to reengage those shooters left out by the Field Target arms race] Is there scope for someone to start a genuine all-comers f/tr class that is accessible to varmint/heavy sporting/ tactical shooters unwilling or unable to build expensive single discipline f/tr rifles?

 

WHO / HOW?

 

I'm not volunteering for the guardroom on this. I'd just be pleased, if this idea 'has legs', if someone (anyone) seized this idea and created a level playing field for a long range shooting sport that would appeal to the "long range sporting shooter hidden masses" (of which I am one!).

 

RULES - STARTER FOR 10

 

Really needs a shooter with a legal brain to draft this sort of stuff; but I'd offer something along the lines of the following to constrain such a competition to 'normal' long range sporting rifles:

 

All rules as per f/tr, less the following:

 

26" or less barrel

Magazine fed (& all rounds to be loaded via the magazine)

folding telescoping bipod no wider than x" at full spread (& removable without tools other than a coin)

Carryable (fully assembled and ready for firing) on a shoulder sling

Min trigger pull 1.5lbs

Safety catch

 

WAY FORWARD

 

1. Suggest additions / deletions to my suggested rules as you wish.

 

2. Someone volunteer to take this forward, preferably (I would suggest) with the current F-Class hierarchy.

 

 

 

Standby for a stunning silence...........

[Redfox]

In such circumstances in many other sports a price limit is often set, say for the scope and possibly the rifle. Maybe also only factory rifles not custom made from parts ( most decent factory rifles are capable of more than the owner/shooters anyway. same with bipod, only currently commercially available ones.

There will always be the fatwad /or fatwad dad who will take the above and spend 6 grand having someone put it all together with blue printing and get an advantage, so a limitation on that is needed too. etc

Seen all this with my youthfull excursions into various motor sports but it is possible to get at least something viable going.

Redfox

[Ronin]

This is me thinking aloud - where there is usually a vacant space

 

 

It would certainly appeal to anyone who has a rifle and wants to try FTR competition, I would suggest that this new class should be FACTORY rifles only, no custom builds.

 

Re-barrelled rifles - yes

 

Re-worked (blueprinted) - have to say yes as it would be difficult to distinguish on the firing line what is and what isnt.

 

Would re-stocked rifles be allowed - such as AICS remingtons and Mcmillans - Manners etc ?

 

 

Maybe use issued ammunition only, thereby removing those with fitted neck chambers???

 

 

 

 

The idea certainly has merit, although it takes two solid days to runeach of the current F Class shoots (open and FTR class)

 

It may be difficult to fit in a third class - the alternative would be make the rules tighter in the current FTR class to accomodate or give a more level playing field for factory rifles...perhaps handicaps for full customs?

 

 

Again - thinking aloud.

 

 

Welcome further input ideas on this......

[brown dog]

The idea certainly has merit, although it takes two solid days to runeach of the current F Class shoots (open and FTR class)

 

It may be difficult to fit in a third class - the alternative would be make the rules tighter in the current FTR class to accomodate or give a more level playing field for factory rifles...perhaps handicaps for full customs?

 

I wonder if the F/TR Varmint/Heavy Sporter/Tactical [F/TR VHST ?] could simply shoot within the F/TR relays but be competing within a sub-class (ie only against other F/TR VHST competitors)?

 

 

RIFLES

 

As regards rifle constraints - just been mulling this over on a long dog walk:

 

I'd hate to exclude someone who'd had a nice sporter put together on, say, a nesika action just because it isn't 'factory'; people as keen as that should be grabbed into the competition rather than excluded.

 

I think it'd be clever to make it as accessible as possible -ie include as many potential F/TR VHST competitors as possible (including custom rifle owners) but define the eligible rifles in such a way that discipline-bespoke-frankensteins can't be created - ie whatever the rifle is, it would be suitable for varmints or stalking. Hence my list attempting to tightly define a Varmint/Heavy Sporter/Tactical rifle.

 

Added a couple more in italics:

 

All rules as per f/tr, less the following:

 

Weight Limit 18lbs all-up (I'm skewed here as I stalk with an 18lb rifle!)

26" or less barrel

Magazine fed (& all rounds to be loaded via the magazine)

folding telescoping bipod no wider than x" at full spread (& removable without tools other than a coin)

Carryable (fully assembled with bipod attached and folded and bipod deployable and ready for firing within 5 seconds of going prone) on a shoulder sling

Min trigger pull 1.5lbs

Safety catch

rear bag capable of being fitted in, say, a 1 litre milk carton (or barbour pocket etc!)

The scope must be fixed below, or capable of zooming to, LESS than 10 (or 12?) power (see explan below).

 

 

 

SCOPES

 

Again, I'd advocate anything goes, but with rules written to preclude use of discipline-bespoke-frankensteins (my new phrase for today). I think that could be simply achieved be setting a MINIMUM power -ie the scope must be capable of achieving a sporting magnification:

 

For instance: The scope must be fixed below, or capable of zooming to, LESS than 10 (or 12?) power.

[Zaitsev]

Weight limit?

 

Max magnification (or scope setting) 12x??? Think this is quite an important point as a scope race will ensue otherwise.

 

Agreed on the other points Andy.

 

Re-stocked rifles should be allowed otherwise I think you would reduce the field by a drastic margin.

 

Perhaps there ought to be bonus points or a positive handicap system for those of us with short ones (barrels that is..)?

 

Upper velocity limits?

 

I'm not sure about the minimum trigger pull Matt (although I can see where you're coming from with it). Would be a bit like Service rifle or highpower. I know several people who run pulls below that on factory rifles-my Tikka m55 included cos it came like that and I'm not messing with it-and would be unwilling to change them.

 

Issued ammo may be an erm issue at the minute due to 'high throughput' on RG for instance. It would not neccessarily be any 'fairer' to use ball ammo as some rifles will not shoot it whereas others (Parkers etc) shoot it superbly. Bit of a lottery then as your rifle either likes it or not.

 

May actually be a more level playing field with handloads as at least every shooter has the opportunity to tailor the loads to his rifle.

 

Probably best off with an open book on ammo then.

 

Calibres: .223 & .308 only or would it be open for other calibres within the same envelope?

 

Cheers

 

G

[brown dog]

Bloody hell gareth, we're doing a good job of posting at roughly the same time!

 

Have a read through mine just before yours, gives my thoughts on most of your points

 

I'm not sure about the minimum trigger pull Matt (although I can see where you're coming from with it). Would be a bit like Service rifle or highpower. I know several people who run pulls below that on factory rifles-my Tikka m55 included cos it came like that and I'm not messing with it-and would be unwilling to change them.

 

No problem; what's a sensible min limit? 1lb? (I'm simply trying to prevent use of field-incapable benchrest triggers - hence the safety stipulation)

 

 

Probably best off with an open book on ammo then.

Calibres: .223 & .308 only or would it be open for other calibres within the same envelope?

 

I'm inclined to agree: I think most UK stalking/varminting ammo would fall between issue 5.56 and issue 7.62 in energy terms; defined in those energy (rather than calibre) terms F/TR VHST could include most sporting shooters.

 

[Vermincinerator]

Hi Matt,

Reading what has been written so far, IMO it has already become over complicated, the more restrictions you have the smaller a field of competitors you will have.

Heres my two pence worth:

 

Two classes,

Class A. out of the box but a tuned trigger and re-stocking allowed, no re-barreling or blue-printing permitted, no scope limits, any calibre allowed by the range rules.

 

Class B. Full Custom and Modified, re-barreled and or blue-printed, no scope limits, to keep out competition rifles, Forends wider then 2.25 inches and parallel bottomed buttstocks not permitted and a weight limit of 13.5lbs, any calibre allowed by the range rules.

 

I would just like to bring to your attention the results of the 2009 UKV Challenge shoot where there were no restrictions.

The shooter/rifle combo on track to win retired with equipment failure, this was a full custom rifle.

The first Place went to a sako 75 Varmint in 243 and the second place went to a Tikka T3 Varmint in 223.

If i remember correctly out of 15 entries there were six custom or modified rifles

 

Ian.

[Zaitsev]

Ha ha. Great minds, fools never etc.

 

Yes I think 1lb would be a sensible minimum. Agreed re the v low pull weights.

 

Ian, I reckon 2 sub classes would be too complicated.

 

Essentially what we would be trying to preclude would be the use of full F Class style rifles or full customs. A nesika sporter would be acceptable but one in an F Class stock would not.

 

AI products would have to be allowed as they are so commonly used. Even though they are v heavy all up they are certainly not F class rifles and do not perform as such.

 

Blue printing would be virtually impossible to exclude from the factory class.

[grahamfarmer]

hi guys ,

 

so our aim is to create a buget f/tr class basically. which will be based on factory production rifles as near as possible .

 

so my suggestions would be based along the line of the guy with a heavy barelled varmint /stalking rig sporter barrels would be welcome as the aim is to encourage people to have a go.

 

 

so what about front bipods only to be commercially available with FOLDABLE legs ie harris or caldwell or similar types

 

barrels to be factory or same profile as available on original or to be max length of 26 inches and max dia at muzzle of one inch that should limit it to heavy varmint profiles .whilst allowing rebarelling if required

 

caliber to be limited to factory chamber offerings only so anyone with a 223 min to say 30 06 as max can compete this would allow 243win but not the( 243ai )and 270 s and others to compete

 

stocks again any commercial stock allowed so if some one has restocked his remmy700 say with a manners then thats ok you can buy rifles with hs stocks as standard this would also allow some one you becomes keen to upgrade there stock whilst working to a budget to some extent or to go out and buy a second hand acis aw or trg if they wish whilst staying in the class rules

 

scopes what about a minimum of 10 time x must be acheived as some people have some expensive glass on there stalking rifles

 

ammo commercial or hand loads of match bullets decision would be needed about max weight for caliber ie say 90 grain bullet for 243 win so the standard 1 in 10 twist barrel is useable and not at a disadvantage to the specialist shooting the 107 or 115 dtac bullets.

 

triggers simple anything that has a working safety and say 1.5lbs pull

 

moderators or brakes to be allowed but braked rifles to shoot as group by them selves

 

weight limit job to say but if a factory rifle with mod and bipod plus scope then ok

 

i base these ideas on the fact that i have a factory made remmy 700 pss which i brought as a stalking rifle with the aim of a bit of target shooting but you almost feel under gunned and disadvantaged when you see what some people use in the ftr class

 

graham.

 

ps.

so guys what about using the ukv meet as a trial then ,we can shoot 300 and six hundred as a trial i have got my 308 remmy 700 pss as out the box and my 243 win howa 1500 lets see if we can agree a few simple working rules then prehaps we can get a working class up and running would be nice if a few regular f class guys could come along as well for some constructive comments .

[maltbuck]

In answer to barrel length to be competetive at 1000yrds, seems that 30" is the preferred length by th FT/R boys,or even 32" if you can make the weight limits, this willkeepthe 155gr bullets supersonic at 1000yrds.

 

There in lies the key, "competetive" there is no reason why a 28" or even 26" barrel cannot be used jut do not expect to be competing for the top places.

 

Hence your suggestions for a sub-division. But the word factory can be misleading, because the RPA interceptor / target rifles are not classed as factory by the F - FT/R class crowd.

 

Bring in a new division as suggested then someone needs to speak to Charmaine at RPA,because the RPA interceptor repeater is simply set to clean sweep this new class.

 

MB

[Andrew]

This is pretty exciting. Makes me wish I could take advantage of it!

 

Back when I was shooting in Cast Bullet Assn comps here in the US there was a push to establish a "Factory Class" and this was done. Simply put, any factory rifle (in this case, of any chambering) was allowed to compete. It had to be unmodified but the following were allowed: a recrown, glass bedding, and a replacement trigger set to weight above an established minimum pull. Addition of a fixed position recoil pad was allowed, as was a "strap-on" cheek pad on the butt stock. Any "semi-custom factory rifles" were subject to approval and basically, if it wasn't something you could pick off of a dealers shelf it wasn't going to be allowed so folks quit trying to compete with with them.

 

This was a completely different kind of discipline, of course, but the goal was to take the responsibility of putting one round onto another at 200M out of the hands of technology and place it onto the shooter's ability to handload and deliver the bullet. Needless to say it is now, I think still, the most popular Class in that form of competition and the scores get better every year. ~Andrew

[grahamfarmer]

or what about making it so simple as the rifle must be conditioned for deer or fox on the shooters fac no worries about weight if you can carry it you can shoot it in our class .

 

graham.

[Laurie]

Before everybody gets too carried away with the idea of some sort of factory sporter or tactical etc short-barrelled magazine fed F/TR class to stop the big spenders winning, may I please point out a few facts as opposed to myths?

 

Fact:

Last year's GBFCA F/TR national league runner-up. Ian Dixon. Rifle - an old .308W TR job - not an RPA, but one of the much earlier versions that you find around quite cheap, the barrel on it one he'd used in TR for years with a many-thousands round count. Bipod - home built. Cost, lots of time plus say £25 in materials? Scope? Nightforce NXS - virtually standard in long-range target shooting and a lot of sporting shooting these days. Cost starting with a secondhand TR rifle - say two to two and a half grand and that includes buying a $200 Sinclair bipod and new NXS for those who aren't up to fabricating their own kit. Use such a rig and a £100 Fox scope as I did last year and you'd have the lot for £1,000 - £1,250 i/c the ski-foot bipod which seems to get some people really het up.

 

Fact:

Previous year's GBFCA F/TR winner Stuart Anselm used a .223 Rem Savage 12 BVSS (that had been successfully used as a .223 in club comps for a couple of seasons) rebarrelled to .308W with a budget True-Flite barrel by Vince Bottomley and had an equally budget bedding job. Even paying for a gunsmith rebuild, starting with a secondhand Savage you'd do this for not more than £1,000 for the rifle. Scope? Weaver T24, say £300-400. Initially Harris bipod, later an improved custom job.

 

This rifle would NOT of course make the proposed criteria as it is (1) based on a single-shot sporter action (2) has a longer than 26" barrel - more on this issue in a minute.

 

Myth:

Using factory magazine rifles will reduce costs.

 

Fact:

Accuracy International AE or AW meets the proposed criteria. Can't find a UK dealer on the web offering prices for a new one, but $3,200 cheapest price in USA. What I do know is you don't see a secondhand example for under £1,500, so let's say £2,000 to £2,500 for a new example.

 

Fact:

Unique Alpine TPG1 meets the criteria. Sportman's price "from only £2,777.99"

 

Fact:

Sako TRG22 meets the criteria. Macavoy Guns price £2,371.

 

Fact:

You can have a copy of Russell Simmonds' F/TR rifle built for the same or less money than it would cost you to buy any of the above. Russell hasn't just won the UK F/TR Cahmpionship two years in a row - he dominates it often winning by large margins and beating all but a handful of F-Open competitors too. have a look at:

 

6mmBR.com Russ Simmonds Interview

 

I regularly see higher spec rifles featured on this forum that are used to shoot foxes! Ask Baldie about the Choate stock and Barnard Model S action - in custom rifle terms they are 'budget'.

 

Let's look at another fact or two as opposed to the myths about F/TR. 7.62/308W Target Rifle has been around since 1968 and whatever you might think about it, it works on a technical level. Barrel length? 30"-32". UIT 3P equivalent using rifles like the Sauer STR2000 - barrel length 24". How come? TR is shot over 200-1,000yd and the .308W doesn't work well beyond 800yd unless you get a 155 to a minimum MV of 2,950 fps better yet 3,000 fps plus, with equivalent MVs for other bullet weights. European equivalents use short barrels because they shoot over 300 metres, maximum 600.

 

The above noted factory tactical rifles plus a well set up Remington VS or PSS will do very well indeed in club level shoots up to 800yd. There is nothing wrong with their accuracy. Darren (Foxing2nite) has been embarrassing people with proper bench guns in the Diggle 600yd BR comps with an AI AW for years. Simon Rodgers was a demon with his .308W AI in F-Class early days beating no end of what would now be F-Open shooters.

 

Opinion (mine)

Fair enough have a factory rifle class with barrel length, optics power limit, Harris type bipod (and factory ammo? Who can afford factory ammo?). If you do, you'll have to ban the Sako, AI, Unique and others or the fat wallets will win out (or maybe not as shooting and wind reading skills as per Ian Dixon, Simon Rodgers and Russell Simmonds have a hell of a lot to do with winning).

 

Try to implement these proposals in national level competition shot primarily over 1,000yd and you'll kill F/TR stone dead in a season! As one who shot four of the six 2008 rounds with an FN SPR, £100 Fox scope and Harris BR S bipod I'll tell you it was a miserable experience except for the few 800yd matches. .308W doesn't perform at 1,000yd unless you get the right number of feet per second period and you're wasting your time and money trying to disprove that fact. Struggling to adjust the bipod legs to get the right height and have the whole kit and caboodle jump around so you have to set yourself up for every second shot from scratch takes a lot of the pleasure out of the sport too. The only thing that worked well was Brian F's cheap 8-32X44 scope, and I wouldn't recommend that apprfoach for any national level discipline. Say that it's got to be a sporting power scope (who says Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski and Zeiss 3-12s are budget by the way?) and I frankly wouldn't bother entering a long-range competition. It's so frustrating if you can't see a small target well, and you'd end up needing a spotting scope and stand like the TR shooters to see the shot marker precisely. For Chr.......s sake, these are half-MOA ring targets! I don't think anybody who says low-power scopes only has ever seen a PSSA 'Freestyle 500/600yd target used for F-Class, and they've certainly never shot at one!

 

I'll tell you something else - limit barrel length and whichever rifle action performs well accuracy-wise and stands up to the hammering with handloads that produce proof pressures would be the norm amongst long-range F/TR shooters within a couple of seasons, because that's what people will use to get somwhere the necessary performance.

 

As someone with a 'custom F/TR' rifle that cost around the same all up with 'custom bipod' (£120) and fixed power scope (Weaver T36 at around £350 mounted on Burris Signature Zee rings - £30) as a good quality tactical rifle alone, I get right P'O-d by guys who whinge on that my rifle and bipod should be banned. If they're beginners with a Remy 700VS I don't mind, but these guys and girls don't whinge about it! The whingers in chief usually have a £2,000 + tactical rifle, £250 worth of mounts, £1,200 and up of Nightforce NXS on top ............. etc, etc. If their £4,000 of equipment (double what I've spent) is no good for F/TR ask yourself whose fault is that?

 

Laurie

 

PS one other fact, Team Savage members using off the shelf Savage 12 F/TR rifles (US Cost $1,100 if you shop around, £1,750 here after the importer adds his enormous margins) made up half the American F-Class World Championship F/TR winning team and individual members took 3rd, 9th, 10th and 13th Individual championship places.

 

See:

 

Accurate Shooter Blog - Savage F/TR in World Championship

 

These rifles would NOT be elegible under the proposed class though (single-shot and 30" barrel).

[brown dog]

Laurie,

 

Stop Stop Stop!

 

This is not about budget. This is not some sort of class war.

 

It is this:

 

My belief is that there's a raft of keen long range plinkers (many of whom -as you point out- have sensational kit) who would fall over themselves to enter organised long range events -were they able to compete on a level playing field (Please re-read my opening post on this thread).

 

What I also believe is that the bulk of these individuals would have absolutely no interest in building (whether with hand tools for 50 quid or commissioned for 4000) an additional single discipline rifle only useable for what has become, essentially, prone 308 benchrest.

 

Finding a way of including such people in your membership and events would, I suspect, massively increase participation -and should absolutely not be seen as a threat.

 

If you re-read your post with your class-war defence taken out I can see only one objection based on 1000yd+ performance and the following assertion/deduction: "Try to implement these proposals in national level competition shot primarily over 1,000yd and you'll kill F/TR stone dead in a season!"

 

-well, that's a typically British SWOT analysis that max's on the 'T' rather than the 'O' ......and it's also why I'd propose that FTR VHST would be shot as a sub-class

 

-and if the creation of an FTR VHST sub-class massively boosted participation, I'd suggest that a little flexibility of mind would lead to a few sub 1000 stages

 

[perhaps also worth reflecting, if you are indeed shooting the bulk of F/TR competitions at 1000+, what's taken you to such long range with a 308 -it'll be the direct result of trying to find difference between the rifles created as a result of the arms race in discipline-bespoke-frankenstein rifles [i'll admit that perhaps that's an over-emotive phrase !]

 

 

This is Opportunity not Threat

 

I'd be very disappointed if F/TR types are so firmly wedded to single shot 32" barrelled rifles that any suggestion of a new sub-category to enable broader participation is rejected out of hand:

The whingers in chief usually have a £2,000 + tactical rifle, £250 worth of mounts, £1,200 and up of Nightforce NXS on top ............. etc, etc. If their £4,000 of equipment (double what I've spent) is no good for F/TR ask yourself whose fault is that?

Hardly an 'inclusive' outlook!

[ds1]

I may be on the wrong track here and really have no dog in this fight but I would view a VFTR comp in a slightly different way - for a start what do we want to achieve? For me it would be finding out what kit you could use as a varminting that works very well - the competition is the litmus test.

 

Clearly F Class has found out what it takes to compete at 1k yard, if you want to play that game then Laurie has given an excellent equiipment list.I may have this wrong (again) but the last time I shot F Class at Bisley we did a reduced course match 300, 500, 600 yards. These distances seem fairly common varmint distances.

 

How about instead of trying to make 'rule bonud' kit you specify something along the lines of rifle with sling (anti BR stocks) and saftey. ALL KIT EXCEPT FOR RIFLE TO BE CARRIED IN A MAX 30L RUCKSACK. By all, I mean all, clothes, food, drink, rifle slip...........everything, use what you want. The raeson for this is it is what you could / would carry on a days field varminting. I f you want a big bipod and no waterproofs and food - up to you. No going back to the car etc.

 

Course of fire - 500 and 600 prone, 300 sitting - unsupported, again this is how field shots may be taken. The 300 yard sitting acts as a balance against using a 30" tubed 30lb rifle.

 

This is not a new idea - similar thing to the 'box test' in old IPSC pistol days.

 

The idea is that after a few years a standard range of eqipment would emerge at the top of the heap, this if the competition and rules are well thought out would also make good field varminting kit. I sense this is this crux of the arguement against current FTR - it is fine horse, but only good for one race.

 

David.

[brown dog]

I sense this is this crux of the arguement against current FTR - it is fine horse, but only good for one race.

 

das stimmt

[baldie]

Dave, the problem with your idea for a COF is that its too interesting. People who want something different would want a go....and that,s not on.

 

I rubbed my hands when ftr first reared its head. I though "this sounds bloody good" level playing field etc.

It would now bore the tits off me. Its no different to "f" class, and that bores the tits off me too. I,m just an ordinary shooter. Unless ftr and "f" class make some changes, then it wont attract ordinary shooters, and it will be the same 150 shooters, week in, week out.

People will also start asking WHY ranges at diggle are getting tied up regularly for "f" and ftr practise, and there are only half a dozen people there.

 

New blood required.

[skany]

I like the idea but my varminter wouldnt make spec due to 26.5" barrel & single shot?

(parker hale0

 

 

nothing custom about her other then a trigger:-(

 

lot of the fruit player would be out as most would be single shot to!

but still very budget as far as rifle go!

 

couldnt there be velocity limmits rather then barrel length ?

 

its my main used rifle & not a purpose built or owt

 

cheers Andy

[Zaitsev]

Es scheint, dass Elefant ist im Raum!

[brown dog]

Dave, the problem with your idea for a COF is that its too interesting. People who want something different would want a go....and that,s not on.

 

Absolutely! ds1's solution would be perfect, but I don't think it'd work at Bisley!

 

I rubbed my hands when ftr first reared its head. I though "this sounds bloody good" level playing field etc.

It would now bore the tits off me. Its no different to "f" class, and that bores the tits off me too. I,m just an ordinary shooter. Unless ftr and "f" class make some changes, then it wont attract ordinary shooters, and it will be the same 150 shooters, week in, week out.

 

Baldie, I think you've successfully translated/summarised most of my rambling "soft Southern shandy-drinking-poof" points into one succinct "Northern tw@t" paragraph

 

 

Es scheint, dass Elefant ist im Raum!

 

genau

[Andrew]

I hate to mention this but, really, new shooting sports have supplanted others ever since shooters have shot. The old Position shooting we used to do with .22's is all but dead; priced out of existence. Schuetzen shooting in the US was always a rich-man's sport and the current revival of this old sport is dying fast for the same reason. Skeet and Trap shooting is fading in the light of Sporting Clays but that will end as well as specialized S.C. guns evolve.

 

There is a highly human element to these shooting games. If a person is convinced that he is undergunned from the start he will look elsewhere for his entertainment. People don't like to lose. People also don't like to show up with what others might view as second-rate gear, either. I really loved rimfire 100M rifle silhouette and tried to encourage folks to show up but, eventually, as people's discretionary funds limits were reached, shooters just faded away to other interests.

 

Make it cheap. Make it easy to comply. People will beat a path to the firing line. The more new or novice shooters you can excite to join a sport the longer all shooting sports will survive. JMHO ~Andrew

[brown dog]

....There is a highly human element to these shooting games. If a person is convinced that he is undergunned from the start he will look elsewhere for his entertainment. People don't like to lose. People also don't like to show up with what others might view as second-rate gear, either.

 

 

..... Make it easy to comply. People will beat a path to the firing line. The more new or novice shooters you can excite to join a sport the longer all shooting sports will survive.

 

 

Andrew, a couple of spot on observations if I may say so

 

 

 

.....and from a purely selfish point of view; I'm merely trying to find / spark a discipline that would interest & engage both me and the raft of others similarly minded.

[Laurie]

Brown Dog,

 

I'm sorry, I just don't accept the 'Opportunity' argument. I've heard it so often - if only such and such were eligible / competitive, hundreds more would participate. Hundreds say they will, single figure numbers actually do.

 

I'm a member of several clubs. In one, a smallish club with less than 100 members, there is a great mix of interests and kit - but hardly anybody can be bothered to enter competitions. TR was its mainstay 20 years ago but has died despite competitions now being open to anything shot off the elbows with a sling, calibre and sights immaterial, results amended on a handicap basis based on previous scores so tyros have as much - actually a better - chance to win as the old hands. The many 'keen long-range plinkers' with good factory rifles said they'd enter - all bar one individual doesn't. The rest come and plink like they always did. I'm not criticising them - if that's what they want to do that's great by me. All I'll say is that don't believe it when you hear ..... if only my rifle was eligible for.

 

The same club offers two versions of its own in-house F-Class shot on reduced size targets at 100, 200 and 300yd. One class (called F/TR) for bipod fitted rifles but no other support allowed. Any make / type / calibre of rifle with as many shot targets eligible as you want to submit over a season, the best to count. Three ranges involved with different targets. The other (F-Open) as per 'F/TR' but front and rear support of any type permitted. Entry free - even the targets supplied for nowt.

 

2009 season's entries? NIL! - That's right not one target submitted. The same club has a regular collection of members who go to all the YRA organised Strensall Ranges practice shoots, pay £10 range fees in order to shoot at up to 600 yards, and mostly do what is in effect F/TR. They enjoy themselves, but won't enter a single competition. There are two YRA organised 'Opens' shot over three distances at Strensall each year, primarily for TR but with an F-Class sub-class. Again, none of these guys enter despite the fact they know the ranges and their conditions intimately and their kit wouldn't disgrace them. The same few F-Class shooters from around the region enter every year despite the YRA being desperate to get the entry up. The members of this club who enter other people's / regional / national matches are with literally one or two exceptions the same people who've entered things for as long as I've known them.

 

I'm not knocking the non-competitors - they enjoy their sport and as far as I'm concerned if we could get 100 new entrants to come and shoot at Strensall or anywhere else purely for pleasure and without formal competition, I'm all for it. It's shooting and the more peope who do it, the happier I am. The only caveat is that the NRA and most clubs tell the Home Office, ACPO etc that target shooting is all about competition ..... and hardly anybody competes in many clubs.

 

My primary club is the PSSA based at Diggle. It provides more precision competitions than any other range in the North and entries are thriving. People start with factory rifles and aspire to improve their kit, not to have low-level overly restrictive competitions that would bar three quarters of the regular competitors. There are disciplines to suit all tastes and pockets - simplest, cheapest going is Military Rifle that has really good entries -all you need is a half-decent Number 4 or Swedish Mauser, a mat, and binos or budget spotting scope. Irrespective of discipline, it's the long-range events that are attracting the real growth.

 

You say I'm being defensive - T in a SWOT analysis. I'm not. I've shot every discipline going over the years with anything I could afford (and that was precious little until fairly recently), only providing it wasn't three-postion, 'cause I'm crap at the offhand stuff. I've shot levergun, smallbore, TR, Historic Arms, Pistol, and Benchrest. I've shot F-Class from its very beginning including up to 1,000yd when it was a single class on NRA TR targets with a .223R Southern Gun Co. SSR-15 straight-pull 'black rifle' for two seasons and at up to 1,000yd which a lot of people said was 'impossible'. I have a YRA medal from one of its 'Opens' won with this rifle. I've been called a liar to my face over mentioning the use of this rifle at long ranges, nver mind winning the odd match or F-Class class prize. Prone benchrest? Forget it! I then tried 'Open' with a 6BR which was great fun, but uncompetitive against 7mmWSMs or even 6.5-284s except in still conditions that we rarely see on our ranges, hence the move to F/TR.

 

Everybody is entitled to their views as far as I'm concerned, but F-Class as organised and set up on an international basis under ICFRA rules as we shoot it in this country is a real, and growing success story. I am fed up by people who've not even spectated at never mind competed in a single competition knocking it. I hate footie, always have, won't watch it on the telly even when there's nothing else to watch, but won't go telling the FA how to run it.

 

Not about money? You're having me on aren't you? Shooting can be as cheap or expensive as you want, but certain disciplines are not cheap and never will be especially if you want to shoot at national level. As I said, I get PO'd by people who have a fortune's worth of kit but won't enter anything because they say the competition rules make it uncompetitive, and claim they're 'priced out of' this discipline or that discipline. For some reason, wide-set ski foot bipods in F/TR really get these people going. I've been told so often that my and similar bipods are somehow 'cheating' or 'buying success' by people with NXS scopes on their rifles that would buy six or seven Sinclair F-Class bipods and a baker's dozen of mine. Incidentally, I never hear this at Diggle where the number of competitors has reached embarrassing levels in many competitions and PSSA offiicals are wondering how to cope with the numbers despite heavy and constant investment in additional range facilties and capacity. New or inexperienced members come up and ask to look at the kit, ask where can they get one or an equivalent ..... and so on. I hear the cr*p at the other ranges where the club competition secretaries tell you that no matter what they try each season only the same 10% of the membership bother to enter! What we tell people is 'enter with what you've got - nobody will think less of you for it, quite the reverse. Instead of demanding new classes, people should give things a go. Getting on the learning curve is as important as going out and buying a fortune's worth of stuff, and often means you make better decisions when you can afford to upgrade the kit.

 

You say I'm being negative. Right, let me throw something back at you - restricting things as you suggest is inherently negative. Let's say we want multi-discipline kit based on magazine rifles, a great idea IF people actually put their entry forms where their mouth is. The downside is that you risk diluting the entry by having three classes where there is now two, and that ultimately none prosper. If you want to go ahead, PM me and I'll send you the email address of Mik Maksimovich the GBFCA Chairman - a great guy with a really open outlook. If he likes your ideas, well who knows where it'll lead.

 

You seem to be convinced that F/TR as it now stands is only suitable for 'single-discipline prone benchrest rifles'. I disagree. Get a decent magazine tactical type rifle with a good spec but not ridiculosuly expensive scope. Use a Harris on it for Tactical / PR / McQueens, but buy a decent F-Class bipod or make one yourself and you're competitive in F/TR up to 800 yards - very competitive in fact. If you've spent £2,000-£3,000 on a rifle and scope as so many have, another £150-200 isn't going to break the bank. Both types of bipod are QD needing at most a screwdriver for removal and swapping. Rebarrel it to 29-30 inches to get the extra 150 fps that .308W needs to be ballistically effective at 900 and 1,000yd and you're a 'player' in GB FCA F/TR national league competition too. My next F/TR rifle will be .223 Rem built around a secondhand Savage 12 single-shot AccuTrigger action and stuck into a no-bedding McRees Precision MPSS modular stock system. Apart from barrel length, there isn't a single thing in this rifle that you wouldn't find in increasingly common precision sporting rifles. Using this modular stock system, undo two setscrews and the forend comes off to have any of three or four designs replace it in seconds - likewise the buttstock assembly - QD between several different forms for bag-riding, folding, tactical and more. Choose another centre section for a magazine action and you've got a repeating tactical or sporting rifle that is also suitable for F-Class and so on. Likewise, the Tubb 2000 inline design is a classic rapid fire 'practical' / tactical rifle, but you swap barrels in a few minutes - so different calibres / barrel lengths for different jobs. Its designer, David Tubb, who does enter things and CAN shoot has used his design for everything from silhouettes and Service (Match) rifle to long-range conventional prone and F-Class (Open) at 1,000 yards with iron or optical sights as appropriate - Picatinny rails make these as easily swapped as everything else. My Eliseo stocked tube gun is an increasingly common choice amongst US 'Fullbore' off the elbows shooters, the only spec change from F being the use of a Palma profile barrel to keep the weight down by around 1.5lbs - and I'd happily shoot mine in this form if I wanted it to be multi-discipline. Add a (manufacturer supplied) rear bag-riding rail to the buttstock assembly - one Allen headed setscrew sdecuring only and 30 seconds to instal / remove and any form of bipod you like and you've got a competitive F/TR rifle. Get either of the stock models that takes Remington 700 magazine actions, but now with good quality box mags, and you're back to being in the tactical / sniper / practical game. The same applies to the Barnard 07 rifle - and more. Instead of saying 'let's have a go with what we've got and start on the learning curve' which is what I consider a positive approach, you're saying let's have rules changes / additional classes to suit a hypothetical body of would-be competitors, who'll enter ...... if only (Return to square 1 on the board, put in lots of effort, do not collect £200 !)

 

I'm sorry - that old claim that F-Class rifles are 'prone benchrest' kit is absolute nonsense at least as far as F/TR is concerned. There is far less in coimmon between F and BR than those who've never shot in either believe. Conversly, those who've competed in Target Rifle find a lot in common if they try F/TR - it's partly about kit, but FAR FAR more about a methodical approach, getting the techniques right, skill, and most of all reading the wind. (F-Open is a different and much more expensive kettle of fish that does use many BR practices.) Standard BR chambering practices and case-necks turned down to two thirds of what the manufacturer gave them are outlawed in F/TR. I've already demonstrated that with a little planning and some judicious purchases, the idea that a competitive F/TR rifle is useless except for one specialised discipline is simply not so. You also seem to have ignored my point about the Savage 12 F/TR being completely competitive in World class events never mind at club level. A benchrest rifle for an RRP of $1,250 and on the counter for $1,100 (£720 at today's exchange rate) in America's gunshops? I think not! What I'd like to see is our importers (Garlands) supporting F/TR like the factory in the USA and offering this model at near cost price, sponsoring competitions and so on. The increase in use, inevitable class wins and so on would raise the Savage profile no end at little cost to them.

[Laurie]

Dave, the problem with your idea for a COF is that its too interesting. People who want something different would want a go....and that,s not on.

 

I rubbed my hands when ftr first reared its head. I though "this sounds bloody good" level playing field etc.

It would now bore the tits off me. Its no different to "f" class, and that bores the tits off me too. I,m just an ordinary shooter. Unless ftr and "f" class make some changes, then it wont attract ordinary shooters, and it will be the same 150 shooters, week in, week out.

People will also start asking WHY ranges at diggle are getting tied up regularly for "f" and ftr practise, and there are only half a dozen people there.

 

New blood required.

 

 

Dave,

 

when did you last go to an F-Class comp at Diggle? Or is this a different Diggle from the one I go to where three relays are now regularly needed for F events and if numbers keep growing it'll be four soon with 5 pm finishes unless we can get people to arrive before 10 am to make an early start? When I go next week I'll add up how many names are on the F-Class championship points list and post it here. It's a lot - running at three or more times what the next most popular discipline has.

 

Also, the AGM has just taken place. Did you attend or make a written submission that valuable range facilities and capacity are being squandered in your view with an over emphasis on F-Class - and make suggestions for new disciplines to replace some?

 

Laurie

[Streeker59]

As many of you know I run the F class section for my rifle club. We keep this simple by running two classes. Allcomers and FTR. This is based on calibre rather than type of rifle as two members used to have a .243 AI and 6.5 x 55 custom of some kind.

We also stick to 2 sighters plus 10 rounds instead of the official 2 or 3 + 15 for economy reasons.

 

I agree with Andrew. A new class must be cheap and easy to comply with.

The following is what I suggest and it won’t be popular with everyone…..

Factory sporters / varminters only… That means that action, barrel and stock must be from the same maker. No Macs, Robertsons etc. Any trigger group. Any scope . Harris “type” bipods only.

If a rifle is rebarrelled it must have the original makers barrel and not a Trueflite or similar.

No specialist “Tactical” rifles such as RPA, TRG, AIW, AICs etc. T3’s accepted as there is no clear advantage over a factory sporter / varminter. ( I’m open to clear reasoning on this point )

 

Calibre to be .308 & .223 only.

Max distance 600 yards so .223 will not be at a disadvantage. Not all can afford regular practice at pay as you go ranges but most of us have access to 600 yards worth of land or know someone who does.

 

2 sighters + 10 rounds ( convertible )

Any rear bag so long as it’s soft..

 

Prone or from a table, there is no clear advantage in my experience. A .308 jumps a damn sight more on a table than it does on a bed of grass shot prone..