F/TR Varmint/Heavy Sporter/Tactical Discipline?

[DL.]

THE THING IS WE ARE TRYING TO HAVE SOME COMPETIVE FUN NOT TRYING TO BUILD A SUPER GUN CLASS .

 

 

Well said Graham, None of my rifles are anything fancy, but with all the weird and wonderful restrictions being aired here, I wondered if it would be possible for me to have a rifle/scope combination that would qualify.

 

Drop the talk of 1000m, as said, 600m should be able to prove people's mettle. It's a good idea, don't let it die a death, I have just hidden a nitrous kit in my Lada Cossak. Danny

[menial 1]

Graham, how many target shooter's that might fancy shooting in this class because of it's simplicity and hopefully, relatively low cost and a lack of mindnumbing rules, will have deer and fox on their ticket, likewise the chap with a fast twist .223. My rifles are all factory but have subsequently been rebarrelled as and when they needed it or I changed calibre using my existing action, so I'd be prepared to shoot them as they are, none has a barrel over 22", all have tweaked factory trigger and because I fancied it, a change of stock, simple calibres freely available to anyone that wants to buy one over the counter, .223, 6mmBR, .243 and .308, nothing overly special.

I think if I understood the original implied concept that this class was to be about shooting what you already own, not everybody on the firing point with a factory rifle, perhaps you'd like to put yourself forward as a scrutineer in the strict factory only class and send somebody home without having fired a shot because their over the counter Rem 700 failed to comply for some minute obscure reason.

I saw it often enough in motorcyle racing, with engines reduced to a pile of bits at the end of a meeting because somebody implied that the owner had in some way contravened the rules.

Those that feel threatened in any sport because they think a fellow competitor has slightly better equipment than themselves have already beaten themselves with their own thoughts, it's the way of the world to attempt to improve your results in any competition provided you observe the rules.

Pete.

[Andrew]

Andrew, if you bought a factory rifle and it turned out a shitter would you buy another and take the chance of purchasing the same thing or perhaps have it adjusted to shoot more satisfactorily by way of a new trigger, barrel, stock, all of these or perhaps just one.

It's amazing the lengths people will go to replicate "factory" to get an edge. Is a blueprinted action still to be considered factory, only if eveybody has it.

The majority of shooters that have some interest in accuracy at what would be considered extended hunting ranges here in the UK tend to go the semi custom route of new barrel or other mods as and when the funds, the need or the mood takes them.

The average punter shooting in the field will continue shooting his factory rifle exactly as it came from the factory whether it shoots "2 groups or in the ".2's with factory ammunition because he doesn't know better nor cares to as long as he kills what he aims at because therein lies his only interest.

I've had a couple of factory rifles that have shot wonderfully and also some that despite careful loading refused to improve.

You could practice as much as you like with a poor rifle but will not beat a skillful shooter with an accurate rifle, you know as well as the rest of us that factory rifles accuracy can vary widely so why handcuff a simple enough class with production equipment and so exclude the large numbers that have improved a factory rifle without spending a king's ransome.

Too many rules are sometimes just that, too many rules, making it mandatory for the organisers at every event to check every rifle for it's authenticity as a production rifle.

If a class is simply done on weight of the kit as it is to be shot, there can be no "he's cheating" claims, the rifle makes the accepted weight limit or you can't shoot, simple as that.

I raced motorcycles in both Grand Prix spec machines and Production machines and the biggest fiddlers were always to be found in the Production machine classes, I'm in no doubt that some would attempt tweaks that wouldn't remain within the true spirit of the factory/production class that some would like to see evolve, myself included, but wouldn't bother to post an application for this supposedly pure factory class as I'm all to aware of human nature in all things competitive I'm afraid, and therein lies my reasoning to include allcomers that comply with the weight restriction, keep it simple.

Pete.

 

Pete,

 

If you did that, the idea of keeping the comp out of the money race would vanish. It isn't too many rules, it's a very few. Stock rifle with the following allowed: trigger, crown, glass bedding.

 

I have been shooting for many years and have only had one rifle that was totally beyond repair, accuracy wise. (Ruger Hornet) Otherwise I have been astounded at the kind of accuracy that can be squeezed from a standard factory rifle provided the shooter can do the work at the loading bench. In 1984 I shot with Marguerite Everhart. She was the US, 500M Metallic Silhouette champion. She shot a factory Remy 700V that was bedded and recrowned. I believe she had a decent trigger on board as well. Beyond being a superb shot, she was a marvelous handloader as well. She weighed bullets, measured case volumes and generally turned out world class ammo developed for her rifle. That Remy would shoot .3MOA at 500M on a still day. She took a good rifle and made it great with her own skill. On the other end of the spectrum is T.B.Cost, a shooter in my old cast bullet BR comp. He also shot 500M silhouette with cast bullets. After a BR match one day I spotted for him while he got his zero's for the 500M comp the next weekend. Tom was a hard-scrabble sort who shot an old 1903 Springfield 30-06 that had been sporterized with a ghastly stock, a crown, and a glass bedding. His scope was a Burris 3x9 he left set at 6X magnification. That particular day I watched him shoot four consecutive 3 - 4 inch groups at 500M with a home cast bullet. That accuracy would be impressive with a modern factory sporter in that caliber. Again, this was a case of a fellow tweaking his rifle and (in this case) fitting a bullet to match his rifle. TB barely had a pot to piss in but he got the job done through skill and perseverance.

 

Maybe I'm being too optimistic. I'd like to think that a stock varminter made by a quality company (Rem, SAKO, TIKKA) would be capable of being tweaked into being competitive with good handloading and the few mods I mentioned. Besides, it only has to be competitive against similar rifles.

 

Your idea for a weight restriction only class sounds fine with me but I'd make it a separate class. I like to see guys shooting. The more folks that shoot, the longer we all will be able to shoot. I firmly believe that. (At least here in the US...) The more the merrier. ~Andrew

[Streeker59]

To Quote Brown Dog :-

"Very interesting and valid observations. However, I've decided to walk away from this idea for other reasons:"

 

"I'm disappointed by the way that responses here (by all but about 4 people) have amounted to little more than individuals trying to shape criteria to simply describe their own kit; and bugger inclusivity."

 

"Mindless restriction, without considering the purpose of the restriction being proposed is about little more than the politics of jealousy."

 

I'm more than happy to give my view in a debate and have it scrutinised by others. I can do without the insults though....

[brown dog]

Streeker, apologies if you feel insulted, that was not my intention; perhaps I'm guilty of being a little 'precious' about what I see as a workably simple idea being crushed in paralysing detail. To my mind, there's no hope of persuading anyone (such as F -Classers) to let us engage if we present a raft of detailed 'can'ts' rather than a broadbrush and simple 'can'. Apologies if my defensiveness read in an insulting manner

 

Right. Back to KISS:

 

I think if I understood the original implied concept that this class was to be about shooting what you already own, not everybody on the firing point with a factory rifle,

 

HURRAY, YES!!

 

I hoped for agreement on a sub class " for rifles that are demonstrably not purpose built for a single discipline competition"

 

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

The idea was never about a dumbing down to the cheapest rifles. It was about creating an opportunity for long range competition within an established framework, using generalist rather than purpose-built-single-discipline (ie boooring! ) rifles.

 

That's why successful rules would be designed to steer design options away from purpose-built-single-discipline rifles. Built to match such rules, the rifles (regardless of the motivation behind them) would unarguably be effective field varmint/heavy sporter/tactical rifles.

 

It's a good idea, don't let it die a death, I have just hidden a nitrous kit in my Lada Cossak.

 

Danny, so you're the one person who waded through my ludicrous analogy ! I want to see everyone in this: Lada Cossacks with nitrous; Tatas, Suzuki jeeps, knackered discoverys, brand new range rovers, just no one with a purpose-built-hill-climb-drag-racer pretending it's a 4WD

 

 

This idea will only have legs if it's simple and designed to be inclusive!

 

 

My mind is now whirring about how to take such a thing forward. I'm now inclined to think that a mating of ds1's idea with Dasherman's to create somethging entirely new (rather than try to get into bed with F-Class) maybe the way to go.

[Ronin]

Ive watched the debate with interest, but stayed out of it so far;

 

 

I compete in the UK F Class league; 2010 will be my second year. I don't mind having a rifle built for "single purpose" because thats the type of rifle thats required for that particular facet within the discipline.

 

 

Like others here, I enter (when possible) the tactical competitions in the Czech Republic.

 

These are a mixture of position, precision, stress test marksmanship that I find perhaps the most challenging ive ever come across.

 

(stay with me, there is a point)

 

 

Personally, I would like to see this type of competition here in the UK as a stand alone competition not attached to any other.

 

 

This may be what you have in mind Matt,,,,,,

 

 

Some parts may not be possible for H&S reasons (the stalk)

 

 

But, using "what you have brung" rifles, there could be a discipline created that would allow any rifle - within whatever rules were accepted, to be used.

 

Say targets bettween 400 - 1000 (or less if 308's wont reach that far )

 

 

Use knock down / reset targets for some, paper for others, timed phase maybe,,,,,,,so a mix of interest for all.

 

 

You could shoot with any rifle so long as you can carry the kit as others have described in bag / rucsac.

 

 

Calibres - whatever the range allows.

 

By all means have a weight limit.

 

Magazine fed rifles - loaded thru magazine.

 

Bipod - foldable (harris, parker hale type - no ski's)

 

Scopes - who cares

 

 

 

 

 

The shoot / comp could be held once a year at a venue suitable, or have three or four league shoots around the country

[menial 1]

BD, "a run what you brung" competition with just a few simple guidelines would seem to be an attractive idea.

Although I don't shoot anything with as high a spec as Ian's (Elwood) rifle it certainly falls into the multi purpose ideal of the proposed comp and I'd have no qualms about shooting against it.

A very high spec stalking/varmint/ tactical rifle can be achieved for the same money that you would pay for the likes of over the counter Blaser, Sauer etc. if you shop around carefully, so why exclude that rifle.

On my travels I see some wonderful semi custom rifles that are evolved for specific field use but would also be emminently suitable for a comp such as this. None of them would be considered to be engineered specifically for competition so why exclude them for being what the owner wants to own and shoot, not what he's told he must have merely to take part.

I suppose the easiest route would be for everyone to buy an LE 303 using open sights and milsurp ammunition shot unsupported so nobody feels disadvantaged.

Pete.

[ds1]

The CZ plod comps are target shooting based. The COF seems to offer a reasonable balance where factory sticks are competitive. For example by having no sighters or spotted shots you balance 6mm and 6.5mm BC advantages against 308 Wins bigger hole in the target - easier to see esp at 300m in black targets. By keeping comps to 500m or so max the 6mm et al BC advantage does not really shine through. A COF requiring 5 shots within 2 mins or 2 shots in 2 seconds also balance against big boomers - 338 Lapua etc, where recovery time is longer between shots.

 

By doing away with crutches such as sighters, wind flags and spotted shots you start to test the person and how well he or she knows their kit. The idea is to ask one self "do I shoot well" not do I shoot well under a series of artifical conditions. Whens the last time you saw a varmint with a pouch full of marker disk - if you miss you see the splash or you dont.

 

Does this idea work - each year there is an international plod comp with cca 160 internatinal competitors, no cal, weight, brake, or any other restrictions - kit is 99% standard I guess if somewhat so called high end sniper rifles, but you can sucessfully compete against a DSR-1 in 300 Win Mag with a CZ550 in 308 Win. Seen that done many times.

 

At the same time inovation should not be stiffled - last year German SEK used X boxes to support rifles and not bipods, use a front rest if you like - but carry the bugger. This year a bloke from URNA and I will try the Rempel ski bipods - any better than a Harris - dont know yet. The acid test is what won last year - a 308 Win Blaser LRS2 with 6.5-20x Leupold, factory ammo. Nothing that special really, just a special bloke behind the trigger.

 

Some thought to the COF would tend to level the playing field quite well and allow for an inclusive aproach.

 

I would stick to standard distances, say 100, 300, 500, 600 yard courses - just for ease of running on UK ranges.

 

David.

[Ronin]

The acid test is what won last year - a 308 Win Blaser LRS2 with 6.5-20x Leupold, factory ammo. Nothing that special really, just a special bloke behind the trigger.

 

 

Don't forget David he had a "special" debriefing from "Jedi" Pete

 

I would stick to standard distances, say 100, 300, 500, 600 yard courses - just for ease of running on UK ranges.

 

 

Sound idea.

[ds1]

Hi Andy,

 

In a sense that was the other part of the acid test - F Class kit / outlook = fail.

 

Also in the first comp Rob used a Unique Alpine in 6.5x284 and 36x boosted Leupold. He did much better with his Surgeon 6.5x47 and 25x USO in subsequent comps.

 

David.

[baldie]

I think the type of comp run by Dave in CZ would be huge here.

I would also guess it would be perfectly feasible at the range in wales, and i would also guess that Andrew, its owner, would be up for such a venture. This type of comp itself would not need all the rules that go with "f" clas, as the mere fact you have to carry all the gear would regulate the guns themselves. When you have just walked halway up a mountain, and have to take an uknown distance shot, blowing like a silly bugger, and laid in an awkward position....it doesn,t matter a toss whether your gun is custom, or factory sporter compliant.

 

I would suggest getting away completely from "f" class or ftr. Personally the rules/arms race and sheer bullshit of parts of it completely turns me off...and i doubt i,m alone.

[ds1]

Just to be clear I dont run the comps here, a mate runs the mil type comp and plod run the plod comp - I only organise some of the UK enteries for the plod comp.

 

I guess for the UK known distance shooting - where one can practice a known repeatable COF may work better than a mil based variable COF.

 

David.

[brown dog]

Also in the first comp Rob used a Unique Alpine in 6.5x284 and 36x boosted Leupold.

 

And got whooped by one or 2 of the other Brits. Can't remember who

 

 

 

I think the CZ comps are, in practical terms, a non starter over here....[not much we could do on the hobby side over here to replicate having the Army / Police force do all the comp admin ...and run it for you in a massive free fire area ]

 

In line with what David suggests, I'm now visualising something that can be standardised to run on any 600m gallery range at paper targets.

 

The challenge will come in the way it's run and the nature of the targets cherry-picking what we can from the CZ ideas( I also think Bisley buy-in to both the requirement/concept and the comp design itself is vital). This sounds pretty much spot on (apart from the waffle pish about rempel bipods ):

...the COF seems to offer a reasonable balance where factory sticks are competitive. For example by having no sighters or spotted shots you balance 6mm and 6.5mm BC advantages against 308 Wins bigger hole in the target - easier to see esp at 300m in black targets. By keeping comps to 500m or so max the 6mm et al BC advantage does not really shine through. A COF requiring 5 shots within 2 mins or 2 shots in 2 seconds also balance against big boomers - 338 Lapua etc, where recovery time is longer between shots.

 

By doing away with crutches such as sighters, wind flags and spotted shots you start to test the person and how well he or she knows their kit. The idea is to ask one self "do I shoot well" not do I shoot well under a series of artifical conditions. Whens the last time you saw a varmint with a pouch full of marker disk - if you miss you see the splash or you dont.

 

.... At the same time inovation should not be stiffled - last year German SEK used X boxes to support rifles and not bipods, use a front rest if you like - but carry the bugger. This year a bloke from URNA and I will try the Rempel ski bipods - any better than a Harris - dont know yet. The acid test is what won last year - a 308 Win Blaser LRS2 with 6.5-20x Leupold, factory ammo. Nothing that special really, just a special bloke behind the trigger.

 

Some thought to the COF would tend to level the playing field quite well and allow for an inclusive aproach.

 

I would stick to standard distances, say 100, 300, 500, 600 yard courses - just for ease of running on UK ranges.

 

 

How long should a relay be? 45 mins?

 

If so -300m 5 shots standing unsupported fb 5 sitting precision; dress back to 500 and ready to fire within 5 mins; 10 shots at precision targets -know your limits type stuff etc, dress back to 600 and ready to fire within 5 mins & repeat.

 

Could be run with all shooters dressing back together or a la century with 3 lanes doing 300, 3 lanes doing 500 etc and move between relays.

 

No faffing, no sighters, rigidly enforced time limits.

 

Whole thing from first to last round on a time limit -10 mins to shoot relay. Once relay has ended; m5 mins to be ready at the next place etc.

Too slow setting up = 'unlucky' no reshoots.

Jams /failures to fire = 'unlucky' no reshoots.

Rounds not on target area= penalty points.

 

No rifle restrictions less for range limitations.

 

-the 300m standing and sitting unsupported as well as sharp time limits will thin out the F Class attitudes (sorry, that term made me laugh in an earlier post..couldn't think of a better one).

[Ronin]

Wasn't that the same Brit who won the Mqueens at Bisley the same year pechance??

[brown dog]

Wasn't that the same Brit who won the Mqueens at Bisley the same year pechance??

 

I think the fellow who did that set a record that still stands (and doesn't mention it more than twice in every shooting conversation). Despite what everyone says, he's an outstandingly good bloke .

[LONG RANGE CAPT]

I think the fellow who did that set a record that still stands (and doesn't mention it more than twice in every shooting conversation). Despite what everyone says, he's an outstandingly good bloke .

 

Matt,

 

I think your idea is generating a good deal of interest, from those of us who have for a while, looked at the current crop of shooting disciplines

and felt they were a little two static and some what ageist.

 

As well as the current concepts you have put forward, other key things that can be drawn out are elements of fun, practical application, good competion and attracking a

younger element to the sport.

 

I say ''practical application'' and I think we need, not be afraid of the word or concept, as to move forward we do need to encompass the fun of what has been long range varminting,

which ultimately is shooting at challenging distant targets, in field conditions, under time constraints imposed by the window of opportunity of ones varmint.

If that meant drawing away from MOD ranges so be it, as apart from replicating an APWT (Infantry) the current drop of shooting disciplines seem to have most bases covered.

 

Drawing on the set ups of Practical long range shooting as used in the US and NZ would seem in my mind the way to go:-

 

http://www.gunslinger.net.nz/index.html

 

http://demigodllc.com/articles/colorado-mu...el-safari-2009/

 

Magic wands at the ready and I would add to the scene a few more WMS facilities to the UK map and possibilities are aplenty.

 

 

Regards

 

Rob

[ds1]

As a starter for ten,

 

100 yards: 5 small circle targets 3/4 moa diameter, 2 shots in 20 seconds (1 per target) - start prone prone position rifle loaded - signal to start is a tap on leg. Reload 3 shots in 20 seconds (1 per target).....same as the 2 shots. The idea is you get time to think about your first 2 shots. A hit 10pts, a miss 0. No sighting in before hand.

 

300y 5 shots in 3 mins, start standing - go to prone. Idea gives time to see what is happening wind wise. Reload 5 shots sitting in mins 3 unsupported. Targets circular with scoring rings.

 

500y with the aid of cross sticks or long bipod (if wanted) 5 shots 3 mins sitting or kneeling. Reload 5 shots in 3 mins prone. Circular or animal figure targets.

 

600y 5 shots 3 mins, reload 5 shots 2 mins - prone, circlular targets with scoring rings.

 

David.

[brown dog]

Thanks Rob,

 

The interest for 'something different' is definitely there.

 

Your visit to WMS was a wee bit constrained by the snow, so perhaps it was difficult to appreciate that the stuff you've linked is already achievable; Andrew can provide shoots like that on a bespoke basis already -limited only by the safety, imagination and capability of the group. (....but when I spend the time and money to shoot somewhere like that I prefer a small group of like-minded individuals. Unknowns who turn out to be muppets, armed-trainspotters or worse would put a damp squib on a valuable (in terms of cost and time) day that I would not wish to squander). It works well at the small group level, but to run anything bigger at a place like that would require a lot of range personnel and admin support [in practical terms, read: the Army]...and therefore cost.

 

On our crowded Island, WMS is a, necessarily, inaccessible one-off. The 'something different' must be designed around gallery ranges -most here will have a gallery range somewhere within sensible driving distance.

 

The key thing is to create something that has more challenge than a sterile environment in which the variables have been so massively controlled, and is so numbingly 'the same' and repetitive that your only thoughts are.......zzzzzz

 

Time, position and clever use of target design can introduce those elements to gallery ranges -you need to go on the CZ indoc package [edit - see what ds1 posted above whilst I was typing] !

[brown dog]

David,

 

Looks to be 99% ...but got to add a bit of 'know your limits' in there too

 

Visualising Century; I think it has to start at 300 ...then it can be run anywhere.

 

...I also think 5 shots standing unsupported at 300 against something the size of a fig 11 (with penalties for any shots failing to hit even the backer) is pretty vital as an 'equipment leveller'.

[Ronin]

Dare I say:

 

"moist with anticipation"

[brown dog]

Dare I say:

 

"moist with anticipation"

 

 

Jeeeezuuus Don't you lot get vetted?

[Gun Pimp]

Brown Dog

 

You have sparked-off an interesting debate. Do we need another class in F/TR for tactical-style rifles? No, but it seems that a national tactical style comp. would be popular.

 

Yes, to accommodate numbers, it would need to be on a formal range. That's how the first national F Class comp. started - someone organised it.

 

Brown Dog - build it and they will come.

[grahamfarmer]

right then lads there seems to be a consensus that we want a discipline to resemble long range varmint shooting at scored targets at ranges somewhere between 100 and 600 yds with mister average varmint rifles .

 

well why not keep discussing the ideas and lets see if the get together ukv shoot can act as a bit of a trial to see whats workable so we can present a common idea to relevant club commitiees as a working format

 

this will also allow the relevant gun type issues to be sorted as a vast collection will be around and shot on the day .

 

it seems that we all want to compete on a level playing field with the results being more influenced by the skill of the chap behind the butt rather than what the butt is attached to .

 

 

so land available out to 600 yds let see if we can sort something out .

 

graham.

[brown dog]

Brown Dog

 

You have sparked-off an interesting debate. Do we need another class in F/TR for tactical-style rifles? No, but it seems that a national tactical style comp. would be popular.

 

Yes, to accommodate numbers, it would need to be on a formal range. That's how the first national F Class comp. started - someone organised it.

 

Brown Dog - build it and they will come.

 

Roger that. The debate here has indeed usefully reshaped the original idea. Thanks

 

so land available out to 600 yds let see if we can sort something out .

 

Graham. Great idea/offer and we should take you up on it; however, for this thing to take off Nationally we must persuade a few relevant bods. I have a cunning plan and will test the water in the New Year.

[Tiff]

Matt,

 

Magic wands at the ready and I would add to the scene a few more WMS facilities to the UK map and possibilities are aplenty.

 

Regards

 

Rob

 

 

A South-West range like WMS is being worked on and may well be up and running by summer 2010

 

I simply got so bored of the static shooting that occurs in this country (mostly by blokes 2-4x my age) I decided to put together a new more dynamic set-up.

 

I can't say anymore for now, but if all the legal stuff goes according to plan, there might well be a 1,400m .338max range, up and running in the next year or so:)

 

This little island is full of potential space for ranges, if people looks at it from the right angle. Also if anything it's easier now the MOD are not involved directly with a range set-up.

 

Anyway back on topic, as you might have guessed I'm certainly behind a one off or maybe quarterly 'tactical/sniper' shoot at a place like WMS....and possibly my setup in the future.