Jump to content

300m ISSF prone and 3 position


MichalS

Recommended Posts

After shooting ISSF air rifle and smallbore competitevely since 2001, and dipping my toe in F Class last year, I decieded  to build an affordable .223 Rem 300m ISSF rifle. It is supposed to be affordable with affordable amunition for a casual shooter. I'm building a T3x Tikka in a custom stock with Walther sights. According to ballistic calculator with 80gr Sierra @2800fps I will be giving up around an inch of wind drift in 4m/s (10mph) wind compared to factory 6mm BR Lapua. It doesn't seem too bad... Will see if it shoots :)

Michal

FB_IMG_1549108302697.jpg

FB_IMG_1552803171419.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting project Michael

 

look forwards to seeing the results - stock looks not dissimilar to Sig 205 Phantom in design 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks very business-like............223 with 80 grain bullets at 300yds should produce some good scores. My 223  is based on a Tikka M595 action with a 760mm 8 twist barrel.

It shoots 80 grain SMK's very well at 600yds. MV 2900.

Pete

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Michal

Nice looking stock, a bit Walther anatomic. Any testing yet?

I've now done my first tests on my 300mt .223 project, sadly the only date we've had so far this year at Bisley (our only UK 300mt range) was on 16th/17th March when the conditions were not ideal for a light calibre, shooting on a very tight target, in fact they were horrendous, with gales all week end, and the range on safety shut down warning, so a bit of a trial!

BUT, I was impressed, as a .223 virgin, I was impressed with the low recoil, and surprised by how it behaved in the at times crazy winds, in fact I also shot with my 6 mmBR as did my wife, and it was very similar scores, and wind responses. I did shoot a full 60 shot match on the Sunday when the conditions were just very difficult, as against crazy, and with reasonable results, not a lot below what I'd expect with my full 300 mt set up in those conditions.. That was also with not ideal ammo, in that I used the GGG 69 gr match, as the GGG 77gr match is not yet available in the UK.

Although my wife and I shoot 300mt seriously with 6mmBR Keppeler 300 mt rifles,  like you, this project is to see if it can be shot to a standard with a cheaper, but still top class rifle, a Barnard/Bartlein, and using factory ammo, as the GGG 77gr is priced near enough what it costs to reload with high spec materials, and save the hassle of reloading as an option for newcomers to the discipline.

I'd like it to shoot to a good standard with the GGG 77gr, so will try that as soon as it arrives, but if its not available or does not perform, then I'll reload, and it would be with 80 gr Siera's, but a wait now as the ammo is not here, and we don't have a date now until the end of April.

I'm glad to contribute to this 300 mt post, and if any UK shooters would like to try the discipline they are welcome to contact me and I will be happy to advise. And just so they know the types of gun we use, attached are pics of our 300 mt 6mmBR Keppelers,  and the Barnard .223 project rifle, the lurid shades of purple rifle is my wife's!

Have fun

Robin

 

rifles 015.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Well, now at last,  I have tested my .223 300mt project properly, and I used the new, only just available in the UK  GGG .223 Rem match 77gr ammo, which uses the Sierra Match King HPBT bullet. The initial shoots were in awful wind conditions,  but at last a sensible condition week end at Bisley, although the 300 mt range on Century range ten is never easy as the wind swirls in that corner.

The conclusions? I'm afraid there are several caveats, and its not conclusive,  but the thing is a tack driver! Even at 300 mts when its pointed at the middle, that's were it goes!! The ammo, is superb, we do reload 6mmBR and the objective of this project was to shoot factory .223 ammo to, a) save the hassle of reloading, and b) to provide a cheaper option than factory 6 mmBR, the GGG 77gr does both, and at £85 ish a hundred is around what we can load  6mm for, and frankly seeing the results, I can't see why any one would bother to reload, they are unlikely to get better results, and its not worth the hassle (see point a)!).

So what's the caveat?  After several shoots at Bisley in heavy wind, we eventually had a light wind week end (light for Bisley!), but it was still fish tailing and changing in strength,  so the first real test of the accuracy,  and the .223 was still very tricky to keep in the ten ring,  not to mention the X ring.  The 300 mt ten is 100 mm across (the X, 50 mm),  and on the slightest wind change, and on a light wind fishtail (from left to right) with the 6 mmBR it usually held the edges of the ten,  or a close nine, with no sight adjustment,  but the same change put the .223 either a bad nine or an eight!  When the shooter had the wind right, and pointed it at the middle, that's where it went! I had one five shot string, when I achieved that, and it was all X's, and inside a 25 mm group,  but miss the slight wind change, and you are in the 8 ring!  And its a 60 shot match, not a five shot group!

Over a week end I shot two 60 shot matches with it, and my wife (who is a top level shooter) also tried it, we both got similar results,  and both came to the same conclusion.

It is superb to shoot, the low recoil is nicer than the 6 mm, it is fantastically accurate, the GGG 77 gr ammo is excellent, and well up to the job, BUT it relies on the shooter being a superb wind judge,  or having dead flat calm conditions,  to get competitive scores, or even get with in 10 points of a 6 mm score in the same conditions.

Maybe,  if I reloaded, and went up to the max on bullet weight, 80gr or 82gr on my barrel twist, and stoked up the rounds a lot faster, it may shoot the wind better, but that defeats the object of the project, to shoot cheaper factory, and to save the hassle of reloading, and we load 6 mm now for the same cost and it shoots as accurate and a lot better in wind.

Another plus point for the .223, it certainly bucked up my concentration on wind judgement!

So I think its going to get reserved for those rare flat calm days,  or some local training at 100 mts!  I'd be interested to hear how Michal is getting on with his in Poland?

Have fun

Robin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Sights

For 300 mt we have our preferences,  but we've used a variety of sights, most good small bore sights are fine, they don't move under recoil and have fine adjustment over an adequate range. 

A good rear sight that is ideal for 300 mt is the Gehmann Compact 590, its reliable, well made, and quite well priced (around £150 or less), my wife used one for ages shooting top level scores before she got hooked on the Precise sights (at £450!)

Front sights the same, any small bore one will do. We use the MEC cube for its light gathering abilities (old eyes!)

On rifles I've built, I use Keppeler front site mounts, (order direct from Keppeler) a clamp type they come generally to fit 25 mm dia barrel, and I have my profiles at 25 mm at the muzzle to take those, they are clamp type and don't move under recoil, if your muzzle is less than 25 mm you can make spacer sleeves.

Have Fun

Robin

Keppeler Walther 006.JPG

rifles 013.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/26/2022 at 7:29 PM, Pavlik1 said:

Hello

I have nice action from free rifle and would like to make it standard, under 5.5kg

To do so, the maximum weight of the whole stock should be below 800g. What is the weight of your custom one?

Cheers

P.

This might be difficult to achieve as free rifle barrels tend to be thicker than standard rifle barrels which is where a lot of the weight difference comes from. I'd be interested to know what action you have though, do you mind sharing a photo please!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know where you shoot, but  in the UK and generally  in 300mt, there is not much standard rifle done now.

A lot of water has gone under the bridge since I added to this thread, basically we have now gone over to reloading .223, I can give any one who PM's or emails me, the full load details, robin.carter80@ntlworld.com , but its using 80 gn SMK, and wow does it shoot!!!! And, its superb in wind!!!!

The group pictured is at Bisley, on the 300 mt range, its my wife shooting the first .223 that I built, basically to test it, its a Barnard P in a special Dolphin stock with a Bix'n Andy trigger. To put that group into perspective, it was my rifle, did not fit her properly, and it was shot in a gale with no sight adjustment for wind!! In fact she was going to continue and shoot a full 60 match, but the wind blew down  her target frame, and several others along the range, and the NRA closed Century for safety!!!  The wind bucking was the big surprise, with the ggg 77's  we had previously used it was still poor in wind (hello 8 ring!), but with the hand loads with long seated 80 gn SMK's (since tested at 2950 fps) it just spits in the eye of wind!

The only thing she did not like, was that the colour of my rifle and mat clashed with her jacket! Pic is her shooting it, and yes, she is a top level prone shooter! 

I of course have now lost that rifle to her, although she wanted it in her custom stock, so I put the action from it into her Keppeler stock and its now her primary 300 mt rifle, and she is shooting top level scores with it, and prefers it to her 6 mmBR. She loves the lower recoil, and the Bix'n Andy single stage trigger on the Barnard is superb. 

I have had another identical Barnard combo built and it is my main 300 mt rifle (even sold my 6 mmBR!) and have also built another .223 in a Keppeler stock with Bix trigger using a Sportco action, so we have both gone over totally to .223 and are convinced they are better!

Interestingly another top 300 mt shooter who had to retire due to a recoil related eye issue, tried it, and he has now had a .223 built on a Borden action, and his is shooting well, so looks like we have started some thing! But shhhh, its our secret we don't want every one going over to them!!

So we are now both fully .223, but the NRA have hardly given us any dates on 300 mt this year, we are not happy bunnies, disgraceful,  so the coming season is a bit up in the air at the moment!

Have Fun

Robin

Pam .223 group.jpg

colour clash rifle.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/13/2023 at 1:41 PM, RobinC said:

I don't know where you shoot, but  in the UK and generally  in 300mt, there is not much standard rifle done now.

A lot of water has gone under the bridge since I added to this thread, basically we have now gone over to reloading .223, I can give any one who PM's or emails me, the full load details, robin.carter80@ntlworld.com , but its using 80 gn SMK, and wow does it shoot!!!! And, its superb in wind!!!!

The group pictured is at Bisley, on the 300 mt range, its my wife shooting the first .223 that I built, basically to test it, its a Barnard P in a special Dolphin stock with a Bix'n Andy trigger. To put that group into perspective, it was my rifle, did not fit her properly, and it was shot in a gale with no sight adjustment for wind!! In fact she was going to continue and shoot a full 60 match, but the wind blew down  her target frame, and several others along the range, and the NRA closed Century for safety!!!  The wind bucking was the big surprise, with the ggg 77's  we had previously used it was still poor in wind (hello 8 ring!), but with the hand loads with long seated 80 gn SMK's (since tested at 2950 fps) it just spits in the eye of wind!

The only thing she did not like, was that the colour of my rifle and mat clashed with her jacket! Pic is her shooting it, and yes, she is a top level prone shooter! 

I of course have now lost that rifle to her, although she wanted it in her custom stock, so I put the action from it into her Keppeler stock and its now her primary 300 mt rifle, and she is shooting top level scores with it, and prefers it to her 6 mmBR. She loves the lower recoil, and the Bix'n Andy single stage trigger on the Barnard is superb. 

I have had another identical Barnard combo built and it is my main 300 mt rifle (even sold my 6 mmBR!) and have also built another .223 in a Keppeler stock with Bix trigger using a Sportco action, so we have both gone over totally to .223 and are convinced they are better!

Interestingly another top 300 mt shooter who had to retire due to a recoil related eye issue, tried it, and he has now had a .223 built on a Borden action, and his is shooting well, so looks like we have started some thing! But shhhh, its our secret we don't want every one going over to them!!

So we are now both fully .223, but the NRA have hardly given us any dates on 300 mt this year, we are not happy bunnies, disgraceful,  so the coming season is a bit up in the air at the moment!

Have Fun

Robin

Pam .223 group.jpg

colour clash rifle.jpg

Perhaps it is time you came back to fullbore TR just for fun Robin! Some open meetings allow 5.56 as it is technically Rule 150 compliant. I'm beginning to wonder whether I should've got a second rifle in .223 and not 6mmBR as it's getting quite uneconomical and doesn't get much use beyond the occasional shoot at 300yd...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a Tikka M595 based "TR" in 223. (It came with Trakker front and rear sights originally, but I use it with a scope now).

It has a 30" 8 twist barrel, and is very accurate using both SMK 80's and Berger 80.5's with RS52.

73 grain Berger's also work well with Wild Boar.

Pete

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Re-Pete said:

I have a Tikka M595 based "TR" in 223. (It came with Trakker front and rear sights originally, but I use it with a scope now).

It has a 30" 8 twist barrel, and is very accurate using both SMK 80's and Berger 80.5's with RS52.

73 grain Berger's also work well with Wild Boar.

Pete

Very cool. I didn't realise there were Tikkas TRs around. May I ask what happened to the Trakker sights please? I am looking for a set of Trakker rearsights actually!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pete

Ours are stunningly accurate at 300, and with 80 gn smk's just laugh at wind, we have 25" 1 in 8 Bartleins on ours (2 Barnards and a Sportco), I know an American who does BR at 600 yds with the same configuration very successfully, but I know you shoot at Bisley (with real wind!!!!), so how does the .223 and your similar load to ours handle wind at 600?

IK,

TR? Us, not really again, certainly not seriously, the wife now hates heavy triggers, (and she was a Queens finalist!) and, we both don't like cold and wet, hence 300 mt only now! I'd shoot TR with a .223 if there was no 300 mt, but Pam has no interest.

Although with the  disgraceful attitude from the NRA,  giving us stupidly very limited 300 mt range time, we will shoot more on our local TR range at Thetford (when the sun shines!). We do now, for practice, with our rifles in full 300 mt set up,  but only at 300 because of the sights.

But, with two of our .223's I also have option 1500 gm triggers that I can fit, on my Barnard its 2 minute job to switch the Bix'n' Andy 30 gm trigger for the Barnard 1500, so also just take off the butt hook, and they would be then TR legal. Sights are a problem for that though as we use small bore sights set for 300 mt, and its too much of a faf about to adjust sights for range changes.

For that reason and to get more shooting, I'm also looking for Trakkers (correct metric rotation not TR!) and with top dovetail fitting so we can shoot 500 yd and 600 yd with them at Thetford.

IK, the Tikka is a really nice rifle, good action, well made, good price, I've even heard good things on the standard barrels they come with, the only down side is I don't think they make a single shot, all have magazines (I think?) but they are still quite stiff, the trigger is more sporting than match, but you can get a Bix'n Andy trigger to fit it! Would make a good budget 300 mt or TR rifle.

Have Fun

Robin

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RobinC:

I managed one  0.7 MOA 5 shot group using 80gn SMK and RS 52 at 600yds when we last shot at this distance (2019) on a reasonably calm day, but in mitigation I shoot prone off a home made bipod and my wind reading skills are somewhat sketchy to say the least.

In view of the current weather, we're generally happy with 2 MOA, and ecstatic with anything less as far as the 223 is concerned.

I've also tried the 223 at 1000yds, just for a laugh, and I was surprised to get 4 out of 10 shots inside the 4 ring  on a fairly calm day shortly after the Intarso's were installed on Stix. This was with a slightly hotter load of RS 52 giving an MV of around 3000 fps with the SMK 80's................never managed it again, though.

We've had quite a few < 0.5 MOA's at 300 yds on calm days, so I think the 223 is definitely up for 300m in competent hands.

iK_surrey:

The Trakker rear dovetail has been machined out to fit the Tikka dovetail, which is wider than the 11mm Anschutz standard, so it's really part of the M595 TR set, together with an adjustable laminate stock.......afraid I'm not planning to sell this anytime soon.

Pete

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has been done before - Laurie Holland had some striking results with a 223 loaded with 80gn bullets - probably about 10 years ago shooting in the GB F Class League. We all remember the 'head to head' with Russ Simmons in the League Shoot at Blair Atholl at 1000 yds with both shooters punching in 5s and V bulls on the electronic targets. I think Laurie took the win by a single point.

We used a special reamer with a very long throat so that powder capacity was not compromised. Can't remember the powder that Laurie used.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I recall correctly the gun Laurie used was built around a tube chassis ( in cherry red ??) and was used to very good effect for a number of seasons 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Pete,

Don't worry Pete, the Bisley wind is plain evil, and wind judging is a cross between witch craft and perception, the best wind judges are top shots who can first call shots perfectly to separate wind and what was down to them, and they spend a lot of time at Bisley just watching as well as shooting. I think I understand it, until I can't!! With not a clue why!!!  Difficult wind I can only generally understand it after the shoot, with analysing the results, which is not a lot of use! 

So if wind judgement is good .223's are OK at 600,  for 300 mts the ten is tight 100 mm, and the X ring is 50 mm. They certainly shoot as tight as the 6 mmBR's, just the shock with our load was how well they handle wind, we think at least as well as the 6 mm, and probably better with a good ballisticaly stable load.

300 mt match is a good test of a load, as its a 60 shot match, so all have to be tight, Wife's PB is 594 ex 600.

The 30 shot  300 mt group pictured in my previous posts above was shot in a gusting gale, and with no wind adjustment, its clearly a wind group, the not centre shots are high left and low right, but the mean wind shots are clearly very tight with a lot of X's, that's .223 any would be happy with that group with a 6 mmBR in those conditions.

Our load is Lapua cases, BR4 primers, 80 gn Sierra MK's, 25 gns of Vhit 540, with a COAL of 2.525. I basically copied this load from a US contact, and I did also liase with Laurie on it, it was all done during lock down, and I've done little development since as we have been short of range time since, just fine tuned the COAL to get a fine touch.   I'm not fused with speed, just accuracy, but I did take the opportunity to put them through a Chrono when some one else was testing, and they did 2980 through our Barnards with Barlein 25" barrels.

We are so short of range time now, I'm getting some RPA Trakkers, so we can use them to practice at other distances and have easily adjusted sights, as the small bore sights we use for 300 mts with no scales are not ideal for other distances.

Fun game this!

Have Fun

Robin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, The Gun Pimp said:

It has been done before - Laurie Holland had some striking results with a 223 loaded with 80gn bullets - probably about 10 years ago shooting in the GB F Class League. We all remember the 'head to head' with Russ Simmons in the League Shoot at Blair Atholl at 1000 yds with both shooters punching in 5s and V bulls on the electronic targets. I think Laurie took the win by a single point.

We used a special reamer with a very long throat so that powder capacity was not compromised. Can't remember the powder that Laurie used.

 

It was with 90gn Berger VLDs Vince. Powder was Alliant Re15. I think I beat Russell by a V in that F-Class League match - a VERY great rarity for me! We were equal at shot 19, but I got a 'V' last shot and he thought he saw a slight wind change, aimed off and leaked into the Five. We were concentrating so hard that neither of us noticed the rubberneckers that had built up behind us and were astonished at the end of the match to get up and find we were nearly crowded off the firing point. Happy days!

That barrel and load saw it keep eight or nine shots out of ten in the four and five rings at 1,225 yards at Blair in an informal session at that distance with the US FTR team in June 2012 and performed well in a coached International Scotland v USA FTR match a couple of days later including the third and final 1,100 yard stage. Since those days, 308 Win has progressed enormously though with small primer brass and 200gn bullets whilst 223 has pretty well stagnated, so the mouse gun cartridge's days of long-range FTR competitiveness have long gone. It's very widely used in FTR mid-range in the USA though, and has its long-range proponents there too.

11 hours ago, Ronin said:

If I recall correctly the gun Laurie used was built around a tube chassis ( in cherry red ??) and was used to very good effect for a number of seasons 

 

 

You remember the rifle and colour correctly Andy, but that was a 308 FTR rifle with a Barnard 'P' action. It shot very well indeed and I had some good placings with it. Since then, that tube-stock was sold, so it'll still be around on the ranges somewhere. The action is still with me in a Dolphin chassis as a 284 Win F-Open rifle and performs very well despite some 2,200 rounds down the Bartlein barrel. I have a 223 variation for it and a new bolt on order, so it'll become a 223 in due course and we'll use the uber-freebore chamber reamer Vince mentions to shoot 90s again.

The 223 FTR rifle in question was (and still is) a 'cheapo' build on a Savage PTA action in a McRees Precision chassis and now sports a full F-Class / Hvy Varmint Bartlein and muzzle tuner putting it into F-Open. (Don't ask!) It's currently shooting very well indeed at 300 yards with 80gn Sierra MKs in a much milder load than Robin's. It features in an ongoing series of handloading articles in Target Shooter re H. VarGet and H4895 post-REACH alternatives.

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3811

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3856

 

I'm delighted to see Robin do so well with his 223 Barnard in 300M ISSF, but not surprised. The 223 is a much underrated match cartridge here in the UK.   

03.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Just to update you on my progress. Unfortunatelly, I couldn't find the time for regular training required to shoot proper prone.

BUT! I took the rifle (in KRG Bravo chassis now to keep the "cheap" theme alive) to an F-Class competition and won both 600m and 1000 yards :) matches. You should see peoples faces :) The rifle shoot's 0.2-3 MOA at 100, 0.3-4 MOA at 300 (best target from 300m below) and 0.5-6 MOA at 600m. In the competition I mentioned I got 0.647MOA at 600m 10 shot group. The load is with 80.5 Bergers and N140 at around 2800FPS from a a factory (!) 24" Tikka barrel. Outstanding if you ask me. 223Rem is a very competent cartridge.

Michal

T3x Skarżysko.jpg

received_642546496842783.jpeg

received_336890481805384.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

A bit of 300 mt promotion!!!

Despite the NRA doing its best to shut down the 300 mt discipline by restricting access to the ONLY 300 mt range in the UK, (the Shed at Bisley), we will be taking advantage of one of the very few dates we get this year on a coming week end in May. the 5th, 6th, 7th.

Friday the 5th May afternoon only, its in the "Shed", and Sunday 7th May all day, in the "Shed".

A small group of us have also booked a 300 yd electronic target on range 19, with a gazebo (we don't do cold and wet!), on Saturday the 6th May all day, morning and afternoon, to make a week end out of it, and justify travelling and hotel.

If any one is interested,  they are very welcome to visit us on range 19, see what 300 mt is all about (even at 300 yds!) we look forward to meeting any of you, and have a chat, and you will see some very trick rifles, (none with scopes!), shooting very tight groups from a standard prone position. We will just be practicing and having fun, so you are very welcome to come and chat.

Have Fun

Robin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy