200 yard group

[1066]

I believe the biggest mistake is trying to develope loads with too little data. In post 24 the 28gn group looks very promising - But it's just one group of 5 shots, yes, much better than 3, but it would have been better still if another two or three 5 shot groups of exactly the same load were shot again under the same conditions and given the same results.

 

Had at least one more group of the same load given the same results when shot consecutively you start to have some useful information. Even poor loads occasionally produce a good group, fairly average loads will give a tight group more often.

 

A load that gives a poor group can be discounted straight away - A load that gives a good group is a promising start but no good if it can't be repeated. (and of course, all flyers count )

[gbal]

+1 (actually + 20 at least) on 1066's crucial point.

 

All the other factors mentioned could still apply,but without a good baseline of real performance-it's largely a waste of time-as is shooting only a few shots....and 'calibrating' a ballistic solver with drop at 300y in 3 shots more than 2 inches apart.....where might the fourth have gone...no confidence-but it's going to 'determine' all future output from that ballistic solver....spend another £5,get it right-we're supposed to enjoy shooting and want to do it accurately....otherwise the £100s spent elsewhere are not going to get properly utilised....and firing say 10 shots at 300y will tell you a lot about your shooting and rig-much more than 10 at 100y....though that's a whole lot bettter than 3 shots....

 

But time and time again we get a three shot group taken as representative,and assumed to be the reliable baseline.

Well,as 1066 says, we need a much better sample-consistent small groups tell us something-but a 'group' of three shots ? and with a couple of other groups, .2g apart,but considerably larger..... node or nope? :-

 

gbal

[Blacknsilver]

Quite a windy day. After a few shots and correction for the wind I was well happy with the 3 shot group. I then left the paper target and had a few shots at the gong. Over all I'm happy with that.

[VarmLR]

Are those 100 yd groups? If so, the one on the right good (looks like a very stiff breeze to have them off and inch and a half) and most would be happy with that at 100 yds. I'd echo 1066's comments above, in that 5 or 6 shot groups will tell you more. I was out today with a few rifles, dialling them in before some LR shooting and from each, the first three shots were touching at 100 yds, but shots 4, 5 and 6 opened the groups up to half an inch or so. The old saying that it's a waste of time shooting more than 3 shots if one strays from the other two is nonsense because without repeatable groups, the overall pattern of what's happening can rarely be seen with just three shots, unless those 3 shot groups are repeated many times with the same results.

[Blacknsilver]

Hi. The picture above your post of the 3 shot group was at 300 yards. The others were trail shots to read the wind etc. I hope to get out again Saturday and go a little more testing at 300.

[VarmLR]

That's a good looking 4 shot group for 300, especially in the breeze!

[Blacknsilver]

That's a good looking 4 shot group for 300, especially in the breeze!

Only have a 3 shot mag. So it was a 3 shot group

The single one was a test. Loaded up and took 3 shots shortly after. The wind picked up but it was steady.

Hope to post a few more pics tomorrow. Windy again. But need to learn to shoot in the wind more.

[simonl]

but need to learn to shoot in the wind more.

Learning to shoot in the wind is one thing, but from my experience if you're adding wind dope, whilst also trying to develop a load at 300 yards with 3 shot groups, you're going to end up with lots of holes in paper and no conclusions. If you draw any conclusions they will probably haunt you at some later point.

[Blacknsilver]

Learning to shoot in the wind is one thing, but from my experience if you're adding wind dope, whilst also trying to develop a load at 300 yards with 3 shot groups, you're going to end up with lots of holes in paper and no conclusions. If you draw any conclusions they will probably haunt you at some later point.

I think the load is good enough at the moment. Ragged hole at 100 and not a bad group at 300. 200 was good as well.

I could start tweeking but I think

It's good enough at the moment as a foxing rifle and long range plinking rifle.

I will how tomorrow pans out.

[Blacknsilver]

After a fair few shots of not reading the wind right and the ballistic app slightly off. I shot this 3 shot group. Again at 300 yards. 11 clicks up and 20 for windage. (.5mm clicks.) zeroed at 100. 32gr v max 28gr H4895

[VarmLR]

A tip when using the ballistic apps is to use the G7 profile if you can find it, rather than the G1 profile the manufacturer's give. I'd be surprised if most G1's were that accurate for over 200 yds with a low BC bullet. Great group!

[Blacknsilver]

I am using iStrelok

It using the bullet speed from previous owners calcs. He was using the same as me but I am now half grain less in powder. 3800 ft per second. I need a access to a chronograph ideally.

 

I am down to my last 26 rounds that seem to be working well.

Just bought 100 once fired brass. So my plan is to FL size them.

My question in case length (I will be looking in the manual later) how much do you let it increase before you trim again? I trimmed mine at *.*38 there now *.*42 ish. I haven't measured the new brass yet to see the length. I don't want to trim unnecessarily.

Cheers

[gbal]

B's : as Varm- whatever solver you are using,use G7 BCs from Bryan Litz list- G! are less accurate-and crucially the G! BC reduces as velocity reduces downrange -G1 in NOT a constant,and the deterioration in your actual BC will start to introduce errors as distance increase...not much ofan issue to sat 200 y-but beyond,it is.

Look at the velocity bands Sierra publish for their bullets-they give only three,but itshows the effect...ditto for every bullet...

All this wascovered in detail about a week ago....in another thread/post...

 

Easy answer-use G7 values.

 

YOu need to trim your brass when it stretches much beyond the SAAMI max length,which is 1.840 for the204 Ruger-so trim back to this,and check every few firings.

 

Re MV-here is how it drops eg 204 R Hornady 40vmax@3900 MV are down to2970fps at 200y; 2755 by 300,and 2433 by 400.

Fed 40g SBK @ 3750 are 200y 3010,300y 2680, 400 2380fps ....600 1830 (way beyond the 204's effective shooting range of course 54/37" drop/drift....it's serious enough at 400y 14/15 in 10 mph wind-so a 2mph misjudgement means a 3" error added to alltheall the others......you miss crows.

Good chrono MVs are helpful-shoot about 10 shots-in very good conditions.But all the above still applies-holes on paper are the definitive indicator,again you need a decent sample to be fairly sure about drops in your rifle/ammo. Three holes at 300y are unlikely to be reliable enough if there is more than about 2 inches dispersal....where would the fourth have gone...? Again .earlier posts have done all this....better yet,read Bryan Litz or any savvy ballistician...we "look for consistency" ,everyone says-correct;then take 3 shots as consistent....nope! (slightly misleading,but toss a coin thrice-you won"t get two heads and two tails-nor be able to predict the fourth-indeed any toss....but if you don't get half and half over 100 or so,-it may not be a balanced coin!I'm not saying fire 100 shots-thouh it would be good data,but three is an iffy basis for proceeding.....IF you want precision/accuracy-actually,I really mean if you want to do something to improve it-often that isn't actually neccessary,given the target size close ranges....but that's another story.

(Improving Moa from .8 to .3 in itself,won't actually improve hits on 3 inch targets more than a very few % (3) at 300y....oversimplified,but 3x.8 will still hit a 3 inch target....using a 204 ruger than a 17HMR (eg inferior cartridge) makes a whole lot more improvement...ball park 10x as much...but you have the 204R...

(cartridge,range,wind are the big three factors for max improvement-wind of course being by far,the most difficult one to master).

 

gbal

[Blacknsilver]

Great reply gbal and great full for help. Thanks you.

I only have a 3 shot magazine. The wind was all over the show yesterday. So to reload and shoot again with the same values was impossible due to the wind gusts and direction. I was also semi sheltered where I was lying and the wind vane and meter was.

I am going to attach a small rod and ribbon to the frame of the gong to show me the wind down range next week.

More prep work on brass before then.

[simonl]

Unless it's a valley, wouldn't the 'flag' better mid range?

[gbal]

S,yes....

1) if it's different from muzzle you just have to factor in ...well,it's complex...wind strength V distance (ie time of flight it has effect) V velocity meanwhile.....take a big computor...ballistic solver can't cope... (but see 3 below)

 

2) Sometimes wind direction actually reverses (cancels out-you'll be lucky!) but in general,wind flags down range are very useful,and should help when load developing etc (subject to above-which weighting for each?...) Check eg Raton,N Mexico-but it happens here too-Diggle eg...why can't the hills/moors/ valleys be bulldozed down? Hence 3) below...

 

 

3) Really,best done with (almost) no wind...unless your working that day.... :-)

 

4) its a hobby :-) :-)

 

gbal

[gunner]

Unless it's a valley, wouldn't the 'flag' better mid range?

When zeroing @200 i put 3 out ! just to keep an eye out on whats going on , as i walk the distance to put uot targets / gongs . It makes sense to have at least 1

[Blacknsilver]

Yes agreed. I was going to put out another but more in this case could be better.

[Blacknsilver]

The 'range' on my permission. 200 yards to the first bush line. Then zoom in to see the Gong/paper targets half way up the field.

[JB1]

Diggle can be a (sorry is) pain, you see the flags all going in different directions, I once took off 3moa for wind correction at 500 only to find that on that occasion it had actually auto corrected. But that's lack of experience on my part, some of the guys that shoot there are bloody good ;-)

[Andrew]

Should I full length resize instead of neck sizing? I was under the impression that full length resizing shortens the life span of the brass?

I am very happy with the results.

Lyman finished a study (in their #49 Manual, iirc) that said that they have no evidence that neck sized cases last any longer, nor necessarily produce better accuracy than FL sized cases. I seldom neck size anymore....

I share the opinion that you should not change a thing you are doing.~Andrew

[VarmLR]

Lyman finished a study (in their #49 Manual, iirc) that said that they have no evidence that neck sized cases last any longer, nor necessarily produce better accuracy than FL sized cases. I seldom neck size anymore....

I share the opinion that you should not change a thing you are doing.~Andrew

 

+1

 

I only neck size at all these days using a Lee Collet die out of laziness, because no lube needed and it's quick & easy (and seems to produce very consistent batches of ammunition). When using other neck sizing dies I started having trouble feeding ammunition for my .308, so reverted to FL plus annealing every 3rd firing.

[snakeman]

As mentioned in a previous thread/s: Lee Modern Reloading Manual differs to the Lyman Manual and recommends neck-sizing; in that neck-sizing will produce a more accurate round - so which manual do you utilise? . (remember though, Lyman and Lee and any other manufacturer want you purchase their own gear and not their competitor/s!)

 

There is a plethora of information in the camps of 'for' & 'against' neck-sizing. Personally I find the Lee Collect Die delivers excellent sizing and accuracy is marginally better than brass full-length sized - learn to use the collet die correctly and it won't let you down

 

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55505015e4b035bedab2707f/t/555825dfe4b0799dab54dd53/1431840223076/Using+The+Lee+Collet+Die.pdf

 

I would also say that a lot of the differences in accuracy would be down to the individual's reloading technique and shooting hold, so develop and practice this, especially the neck-tension on the collet die

 

The results will be seen if you do both, full-length and neck-size for yourself and, for your rifle. "believe only half of what you see and nothing of what your hear"

 

IMO the Lee Collet Die is an indispensable addition to any reloading bench

 

ATB

[VarmLR]

 

...The results will be seen if you do both, full-length and neck-size for yourself and, for your rifle. "believe only half of what you see and nothing of what your hear"

 

IMO the Lee Collet Die is an indispensable addition to any reloading bench

 

ATB

 

 

 

Agreed. Research seems to tick the boxes of manufacturers want to sell you. Irrespective of neck or FL sizing your brass will change as the brass migrates towards the neck and no type of die can prevent that. For target, I usually use the collet die which does indeed aid consistency IME. For hunting applications, I FL size because I don't want any failure to feed in the field, which has happened before using other types of neck die. Inevitably, you will have to FL size at some point unless you can accurately and reliably bump the shoulders back with the neck die you use.

[snakeman]

 

 

 

For target, I usually use the collet die which does indeed aid consistency IME. For hunting applications, I FL size because I don't want any failure to feed in the field, which has happened before using other types of neck die. Inevitably, you will have to FL size at some point unless you can accurately and reliably bump the shoulders back with the neck die you use.

 

 

+ 1

 

I have a lot of time for the Lyman manual and it provides the reloader excellent information but, I find it also borders on an insult to the reloader that in Lyman's manual they do indeed inform us that neck-sizing provides no/little evidence of enhanced case life or improved accuracy; but paradoxically, that exact same manufacturer openly advertises, proclaims, and probably sell by the millions, a tool which entirely contradicts their manual's typed word - hypocrisy springs to mind

 

https://www.lymanproducts.com/brands/lyman/dies-die-sets/rifle-die-sets/deluxe-rifle-neck-size-die.html

 

Perhaps it's time the editor/s updated their manual or, they discontinue producing the tool they seem to have little faith in?

 

What works best for me and, for my rifle/s, is the only evidence needed or worthwhile

 

ATB