200 yard group

[pork chop]

Possibly only one way to find out,I used to neck size my first .223 but after two three reloads I had to fl size to bump the shoulder back and I still got the same accuracy.i don't neck size any of my cases now

[JB1]

5 shot group.

Looks like the 28grain shot exceptionally well! Ether that or I missed with 3 shots.

My questions are

These were full length resized and Trimmed to size.

I intend to just neck size the next lot. Will this make a difference to the group size?

If I was you I would freeze, don't touch anything dies, powder weight, neck tension, seating depth nothing. Take it out to 200yards, see what they are like at double the range. You can twiddle a bit with seating depth but to be honest the 28grn looks pretty good.

[Blacknsilver]

Should I full length resize instead of neck sizing? I was under the impression that full length resizing shortens the life span of the brass?

I am very happy with the results.

[pork chop]

Point I was making is that at some stage you will need to push the shoulder back or you'll get a tight bolt closure .reloading is all about consistency so why not fl size from the start .just r size enough to push a the shoulder back 1 or 2 thou and you'll not over work the brass.no right or wrong way too be honest but I never found any advantage to neck sizing

[Blacknsilver]

I have just cleaned the brass from last night. I de primed with the press which I set just to deprime and not neck size. I will do the same process as I did before. I will now put them in the FL die and see how this 20 of the 28gn performs before I start altering any of the dies that I set to start the development. Fingeres crossed I get similar groups.

[Mark Jones]

I went to the range tonight to test my first batch of home loads.

Very happy with the results. IMG_3508.JPG

I always like to set my scope to shoot an inch high when load testing as if your 27.5 or 28.5 group was a fraction higher you may of lost your target point. very impressive group @28 good work

[Blacknsilver]

Ok. So I went out on my perm for an hour.

I did the same loads (28gn) with the same prepped cases from my 100 zero batch.

 

These groups were 200 yards first group was 3in lowers than the bull. (Centre of group) Centre to centre 1.038in

 

Second group I added 5 clicks (1= 5mm @100 yards) centre to centre 0.352in

 

3rd group centre to centre 2.078 (0.803 with out the flyer)

 

All these cases were Full length resized.

 

I am new to reloading.

 

Would you Full Lenght resize again? Or neck size only? To get the same neck tension do I measure the outside measurement of the nick on a case that I have full length resized and then match it to my neck sizeing die brass?

Any help here would be great.

[Blacknsilver]

File to big to up load.

Will try again.

[Blacknsilver]

Done.

All were 4 shot groups.

Cheers

[Blacknsilver]

Update.

Decided to FL size. Only to find the FL resizer was pulling the main sizing pin out on the down stroke. Weird. I had t touched it. Couldn't figure out the problem.

So decided to neck size this time.

Typical. You find a load a neck tension that works a treat and then try and duplicate it and the plan goes tits up.

Head back in the books tonigh to find where the problem is.

[Mark Jones]

Neck size only with a Lee collet die and your neck tensions should be quite repeatable?

[Blacknsilver]

The first time I used the Lee Collet did I deprimed with it. It left the neck to lose to seat the bullet. That wasn't a problem as I was FL resizeing after that. (I did things arse about face) I did bits over a few nights and changed my plan of attack.

So now the FL sizer has thrown a spanner in the works I put an extra turn on the collet die and it seems to be just enough to hold the bullet in place before seating it. Where as when I FL resized it felt to tight as it didn't always hold the bullet prior to seating. I only did a few like that but found then to be very accurate. These that I have done now are slightly different neck tension by the feel of it. Just going to load 5 of the 50 brass I have prepped and fingers crossed I get similar results.

[hunter686]

When was the last time you cleaned your bore?

 

Anytime my .204 has opened up it's because the bore needed a clean. I find the POI starts to rise when its needed. For my rifle it's about 50 rounds. If i were you:

 

I'd give the barrel a good clean

Put 5 shots through it

If you still struggle to get it to shoot well let a proven shooter print some groups and see how they fair.

 

If the results are still the same? Get the rounds pulled apart and go back to the beginning of load LD.

 

Also, don't get too caught up at what you see at 100. The powder i used to use printed groups in the .1s but when i went out to 300 it would go wild - like 2moa. The powder i use will give me .4s and will hold very good vertical up to about 380yrds

 

This group i printed at 318yrds from a factor T3 in a field off a bipod

 

 

Hope this helps

[Mark Jones]

Hunter 686,

 

How can a group in the .1s @ 100 be 2 inches @300 yes?

 

Mark

[hunter686]

Hunter 686,

How can a group in the .1s @ 100 be 2 inches @300 yes?

Mark

If i knew the answer to that people would be calling me Litz.

 

My only guess would be that at short range it harmonically worked but Es paired with poor node came into view after that. I used to document all my target's. I can try and dig them out to show you if you were interested.

 

 

Atb

Geordie

[Mark Jones]

Not sure I agree exactly with that, once they have left the barrel they are on their flight path so to speak, so I would assume a group shooting .1 @ 100yds will be printing .3 @300 not taking wind into account. This should carry true, again forgetting wind until the bullet becomes transonic ?

 

Anyone who knows more about external ballistics have an opinion?

 

Mark

[simonl]

Not sure I agree exactly with that, once they have left the barrel they are on their flight path so to speak, so I would assume a group shooting .1 @ 100yds will be printing .3 @300 not taking wind into account. This should carry true, again forgetting wind until the bullet becomes transonic ?

 

Anyone who knows more about external ballistics have an opinion?

 

Mark

Keen to see opinions on this.

[gbal]

No,afraid not-groupsize is not linear-in this sense (reality !) -

 

There are a whole raft of variables (* see end) that are so small in effects,they really cannot be measured at short range,with intrinsic rifle and ammo precision already compromised -most more than .1moa- at least with the usual equipment available,maybe just about with Bench Rest measures,but not with a school ruler and optimistic biased eye.

 

But as range increases,these effects become rather larger and contribute significantly to the measured dispersion(correolis etc etc are always there,but effect at 100 is very very small....they increases enough as distance increases to additively become dispersing factors in the measurement of group). Bench Rest shooters tend to think 10 fps small velocity differences are negligible at 100y-but not 1000y-or at least,don't go to extremes to eliminate velocity variation (SD=0)at -MV of course is not an external variable,and can be varied by the reloader-correolis can't,short of a long train journey.)

So in one sense you are correct "Surely the bullet....etc"; but in the greater finely measured world,the very small effects -negligible at 100y- cannot be neglected as range increases,though 300y isn't where they are all become "significant"...it varies for each factor-mostly beyond 400ish (rarget size comes in too).

 

(Wind is a factor,and it's effect predictable -shooter's problem is that it is not constant over the bullets flight,let alone between bullet flights).Be grateful gravity is,usually (no sea level,height above,changes,so if you make that long train journey,check altitudes too).

 

* Coreolis

Coreolis drift

Gyro spin drift

Magnus effect

Poisson effect

Horizontal effect

Eotvos effect

et al.....

 

gbal

[Blacknsilver]

I clean the bore after every use. I some times use a bore snake followed by a rod and jag with a patch squirted in bore cleaner. Followed by numerous dry patches until it shows clean. I've only put about 150 through the rifle since buying it.

I have made up 50 rounds with 28gr and neck sized the brass I trimmed and FL sized that gave the good results.

As soon as this wind calms down I will try them at 200 and at 300 and report back.

[Mark Jones]

Hi,

 

Bit confused how a .1 group @100yds becomes 2MOA (6inches) @ 300 yds

[Mark Jones]

Hi,

 

Bit confused how a .1 group @100yds becomes 2MOA (6inches) @ 300 yds

Can't see any factors opening a group up over say an inch at that range apart from wind, totally agree other factors need taking into account at longer ranges though?

[hunter686]

Here we go:

The first group was a 3 shot group (was very consistent at that) I then pushed the distnance incrementally. I cant remember what distance the 3 shot group was in the red was.

If i remember right the wind wasn't as bad as it looks on the target.

 

Worth a note: Rifle, primers, bullets all the same between the 3 targets I've put up. Only change was going from 10x to N135 and you can see the comparison if you go back through the post and see my 318 yard group.

 

It's worth adding one of the 300 yard rounds are missing. I had had issues with bullets keyholing previously so I think this is what happened as the board is hardly small.

[gbal]

Mark,indeed....and agreed An actual.1/100 and 6 /300 indicate some fairly serious factor-the .1/100 makes bullet deformations somewhat unlikely-i mean badly bashed up meplets and such like...or a serious crown fault...6/300 are hardly problematic per se,but in conjunction with .1/100 .....? (no comment on any actual targets/measurement implied-just that a x60 increase in dispersion is way over the basic x3 (tho' unlikely real world ) pro rata moa extrapolation ( .1 to.3).

 

I should have added some figures to my previous points about the 'exterior ballistic' factors listed (wind etc are another differnt set,sent to try us,but may/not present every time-the 'raft ones' are there,like gravity,but with variable consequences.In general these are close to negligible for much shooting at short range-though it wll do noharm to add theminto a ballistic solver,if allowed.

As range increases (500+ roughly) -AND if all the other parameters (scope height,BC.velocity) have been accurately checked and entered,then negligence begins to have a price.....a couple of brief examples:

 

Spin drift-a bullet drifts in the direction of the spin imparted by the rifling twist.Ballpark 5-8 inches at 1000y (R for R twist barrels)

Coreolis effect-the apparent drift (actually vertical and horizontal) of the bullets trajectory as it moves from one place(rifle) to another (target) while the earth rotates (very basically,in the time of flight,the target has moved).East,shoot high,west low and maximal at equator. Clearly variable then,gegraphically- With good gear/shooter ball effect is detectable from about 500y,increasing to 800,then reducing...

 

So,does it matter: depends how precise/accurate you need to be,and can be (the 6" at 300y shooter need not be too concerned yet !)

Here's some hit % figures:

 

Coreolis: for high confidence shooter (eg +/_ 1mph wind reading etc,moa gear):

hit % on a 5" target Cor correction/no Cc : 400y 100/100 600y 83/73 ; 800y 45/28; 1000y 18/10

 

 

Spin drift: high confidence shooter/gear (+/-1 mph etc):

Hit % 5" target correction/no corr : 400y 100/97; 600y 83/51/ 800y 45/18; 1000y 18/5

 

Lowconfidence (+/- 2.5 wind error,etc) %" hit % 400y 69/69 ; 600y 27/20; 800y 10/7 1000y 3/1

 

With bigger targets eg Hi conf 10 " 600y 100/94; 800y 88/53; 1000y 56/19

IPSC/Fig 11 800y 100/93 1000y 93/56

 

OK,data for 308155 @3000fps. The diff in % from + correction,to no correction is the % gain to shooter ie

88/53 means for that distance and target size and shooting confidence,correcton gives 25% more hits.

 

It's fairly clear that the poor shooter is making so many/large other mistakes that the "raft"ones are not top priority,nor are they for the 5" target shooter at 300/400y at least (they are not big enough,yet).

 

A skill improves,and hit % increases,for all the main factors-wind,SDvel,BC etc ,then some at least of the 'raft' begin to nibble,if not bite ,on performance/scores-again,the more as range increases beyond say 3-400 yards (crows are sub 5 inches,but if you can get one walking anti correolis,then it gives a new ......err..twist ..to 'walking your shots in") :-)

 

gbal

 

 

 

 

'

[VarmLR]

Without going into depth, sometimes trying to analyse why groups suddenly open up once past a certain distance can be quite difficult to nail. I've had this shooting TMKs which print .3 moa all day long in still conditions to 400 yards shot from my rifle, only to open up to 2 moa at 600.

 

Rather than looking out for a technical explanation from the start, sometime's it's wise to go back to basics and ask some questions relating to consistency.

 

• First, and rather obvious, is how often is the rifle cleaned? Mine needs a good clean and de-copper every 75 to 100 rounds to hold tight groups after which groups appear to start opening up. 75 rounds would be a good range day for me, but i appreciate some hunters never clean their rifles, or at least only once in a blue moon, unless they start to miss what they're shooting at. You'll soon know when coppering starts to become a problem, and by and large, the faster your rounds go down the barrel, the sooner it'll be a problem, especially if MVs are much above 2800 fps when copper wash seems more problematical than under this figure (by the way, that's from observation from bluing of patches when cleaning. When I'm shooting hot loads, its very noticeable that coppering happens a lot quicker when punching rounds past 2800fps irrespective of calibre).
• Secondly, again somewhat obvious, but when changing ranges, are you using identical shooting positions, and the same technique?
• Thirdly, and again obvious when you stop to consider it, ES and SD don't matter a lot at 200 yards. Beyond this, they start mattering, and by 600 become quite significant because the differences in POI between loads that might have an ES of say 40fps are very marked at 600 yards;
• Fourthly, similar to the above, if you have large variations in ES and SD at the muzzle, your actual BC will alter slightly between those rounds due to velocity difference and further out, the differences are marked enough that you start shedding velocity sooner for the rounds which started off at -40fps, so by the time you hit 600 yds, the effects are probably greater than at the muzzle. This will also have an impact at 300yds, but as to whether they'd make several inches difference (THEY COULD) depends entirely on measured ES/SD at the muzzle in the first place.
• lastly, trigger technique matters. At 100 and even 200 yds, you can get away with very slight differences in trigger technique and still achieve sub moa results if your trigger is willing! I would argue that once you start extending your range, then any differences, no-matter how small, will have an impact on POI.

Until the above, controllable things are addressed and ruled out, it might be difficult to judge the real reasons for a shift from .1 to over 2moa between 100 and 300 yards. I don't know a lot about the .204 bullet you've used, but some bullets simply don't work well beyond a certain range, but in your case, it would be unlikely to be stability related wrt to transonic region. If the bullet/rifling match place the bullet as marginal on stability to begin with, this would account for it, so that's another obvious one to tick off the list.

[Blacknsilver]

Hi guys.

Great knowledge from all that's replied to this post.

I will be going out today (I hope) I will be testing my latest reloads. They will be the same charges as last time. Same everything but there will have been neck sized where the last were FL sized.

Proveded sheep arnt a problem I can shoot from my usual position at hit 200 and 300 yards.