gbal Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Glad it seems 'sorted' by the RFD. From the posts,it seems a one off mystery... What still puzzles me is just how this new 204 brass could easliy chamber,yet apparently be 'fire formed' to a reduced case mouth diameter over part of the neck.......sort of fire forming,but in reverse-reducing neck calibre-what squeezes the 'false shoulder' down,and how did the case get in......am I missing something (other than an engineering apprenticeship,or other useful practical education/experience)? gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grum87 Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 ......am I missing something (other than an engineering apprenticeship,or other useful practical education/experience)? ....a hammer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCetrizine Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Looking at the shoulder, it seems to me as though the top of the neck is the correct fired dimension and the lower section at the shoulders has been expanded out to fit the oddly shaped chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Thanks,MrC-that makes sense...some serious chatter nonsense at the top of the shoulder by the reamer or whatever has 'enlarged' that early neck area,before continuing to cut a decent end neck/throat and the case has fire formed to that enlarged early neck bulge..... Grum,thanks.....not sure it's the optimum precision instrument,and -I'm told- you still need expertise to know where to hit with the hammer.... :-) g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 'Interesting' (to put it mildly!) I still don't see if it was a new rifle and hence Savage's fault, or if some bozo has been at it afterwards. I own and have owned several centrefire Savages from the Precision / Varmint ranges and had no troubles with them. Quite the reverse in fact. As a matter of interest, on a similar chamber-neck issue, here's a pic of three fired cartridges which were fired in a rifle which was correctly chambered, in fact had to be so chambered to meet the legal requirements of the country where the rifle was manufactured. I researched the cause at the time, but as M. Caine Esq., says this is one of these things where "not that many people know that!" [/url]">http:// No prizes for a correct answer I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That bald headed Geordie Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Ok Laurie I am one of the 'not many people' so put me out of my misery!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 7.62X54R fired in an Izmash straight-pull Tigr-04 rifle, the civilian version of the SVD Dragunov sniper semi-auto. I'm told that any rifle manufactured in Russia in a 'military' calibre for sales to civilians has to have the ring at the bottom of the neck incorporated into the chamber, Les. This is allegedly so that when the Russian police or whoever pick up the brass from a criminal shooting (not that that ever happens in Vlad Putin's Russia surely!), they can tell whether it was a military or civilian AK or whatever. (Not that any military armoury guys would ever sell Russian Army weapons off to earn a bit on the side in Mr Putin's Russia. Surely not?) That was the reason I got - but there may be other better ones like wonky chamber reamers in the AK-City of Izhevsk way out in East Russia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 PS B*st*rd !!! Look what the rifle did to expensive Lapua cases. I wouldn't like to resize and re-fire them too often - worries about the neck detaching and accompanying the bullet down the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grum87 Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 PS B*st*rd !!! Look what the rifle did to expensive Lapua cases. I wouldn't like to resize and re-fire them too often - worries about the neck detaching and accompanying the bullet down the barrel. Tame in comparison to what an SVT40 can do to 54r brass, it has a fluted chamber to aid extraction(as a semi auto). Didn't translate well with AR Bucklands I'll fated straight pull conversions(it was a gorgeous rifle, and fun never the less). Interesting fact about the ring. I do recall reading that civvy AK's were manufactured with slightly different feed ramps to military AK's. The reasoning given that it wouldn't feed reliably if doctored to fire full-auto. Not sure how much water that reasoning holds, as the action of chambering a round is the same, be it semi or full auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 PS B*st*rd !!! Look what the rifle did to expensive Lapua cases. I wouldn't like to resize and re-fire them too often - worries about the neck detaching and accompanying the bullet down the barrel. Yes Laurie...a whole box full would be expensive;but are they not also a thing of beauty,even art,and I think I'd like one in nickel too.... Maybe we'll find out if the 204 was a virgin....foxpig ??......no names,just whether any non factory customising of the chamber might have been possible...,and therby hangs a tale or two... Laurie,have you ever heard the rumour/story/fiction about WW production of No 4 Enfields that had botched chambering and ejected fired brass with rounded shoulders....allegedly having headspaced ok on the rim at proof....if ever proofed......!!? g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grum87 Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Yes Laurie...a whole box full would be expensive;but are they not also a thing of beauty,even art,and I think I'd like one in nickel too.... Maybe we'll find out if the 204 was a virgin....foxpig ??......no names,just whether any non factory customising of the chamber might have been possible...,and therby hangs a tale or two... Laurie,have you ever heard the rumour/story/fiction about WW production of No 4 Enfields that had botched chambering and ejected fired brass with rounded shoulders....allegedly having headspaced ok on the rim at proof....if ever proofed......!!? g Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean, but don't all .303's have rounded shoulders? .303's even mint, can be, ahem, 'generous' in their chambers..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean, but don't all .303's have rounded shoulders? .303's even mint, can be, ahem, 'generous' in their chambers..... More so than some....hence my 'fiction' option on this-I have no reliable authority for the claim-just really letting this tick over until we find out if any "custom work" might have been carried out on the 204 chamber,and this 303 one seemed a long shot contender,as the claim was the chamber had been 'rounded off' and had less tapered walls/overtorqued/stresses/etc etc....sounded a bit implausible to me,but I know even less about the production of wartime NO4s than hammers! I did 'anthrolpology 2' not metalwork,which is probably why the rings on Lauries Lapua cases seemed attractive to me-some African/Asian women used to wear metal rings on their necks as attractives (some were actually coils,but let's not get too technical..or hot under the collar...... :-) There are better documented cartridge examples,but it's all a bit off topic if the ruger wasn't subjected to 'improvements'. g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxpig Posted January 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Just to clarify. The savage 204 ruger 26inch barrel fluted. was brand new from factory. He waited 3 months for it to be sent over. Then he waited another month for it to be screw cut . He's now got a 2 month wait for a t3 with a 20 inch barrel. He said its tikka all the way for him now. And to be honest I can't blame him after 2 different rifles in a row have been pigs . Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCetrizine Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Who screw cut it? Could this have been done by a poorly trained lathe jockey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akeld Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Who screw cut it? Could this have been done by a poorly trained lathe jockey? That does raise the question, if the barrel was removed to cut between centres and not refitted correctly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxpig Posted January 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Haven't got a clue who did it . We have some very poor smiths down here. I sent a sako 85 in 243 off 5 months ago to be screw cut a re crowned. When it came back the barrel was 2 inches shorter and not crowned!! The result being I couldn't use my moderator ( pes t12) the threads also being very rough and poor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWShooter Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 That does raise the question, if the barrel was removed to cut between centres and not refitted correctly Which is what I suggested on post no11, from what we've been told its most likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 foxpig,thanks for this 'update'....it's become one of those long long guessing games-now post 43- where relevant bits of possible jigsaw trickle out.... I understand that what is paramount was advice-which was something isseruiuosly wrong and the rifle should not be shot. It's usually of interest-it's how we allearn-to get some sort of explanation too-as said in post 11 maybe the barrel was rmoved(why should it be-well,we know now...screw cutting) and not correctly fitted.Maybe someone more knowledgeable can confirm whether this could give the swollen lower half to the necks of subsequently fired cases. Can we assume,as it was new,that the rifle was never fired before it went to some smith for some work to be done? If so we will be unlikely to implicate Savage or the proof house...odds are rifle was fine,but then the 'errant smith' might argue otherwise. Wemay never know...... Pity all this wasn't clearer from the start though....sorry to hear about your 243,this sort of 'botch' does happen.alas... gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Grum,maybe we're about done on the quirky wide 1/2 necked 204..... Clutching a bit at straws-in the absence of critical info-maybe some barrel butcher had tried to increase capacity with ssome weird reamer tool......yeah,I know unlikely/why would you etc. The rounded shoulder issue from poor reaming has a legitimate base in the proprietary Weatherby venturi radius shoulder cartridge line,using skilled reaming of a radical design. A southern California Smith was experimenting with the 300 MIller Free Bore,with venturi type shoulders,which became the 30PNVF(Powel Miller Venturi Freebore-reamer is more complex of course,but still available from Pacific Tool). Roy weatherby is alleged to have had a 270 version,and saw the commercial,as well as slight ballistic,advantages of a such a cartridge case design,with a complex reamer-exclusivity-and after all,venturi's had enhanced automobile carb performance,so why not rifles? The rifles did boast/produce extra velocity,whether from increased powder/more efficient burn/gas pressure-whatever,and the rest is history and profit. It's just possible some bonkers idea of enhancing the case/neck occured and went badly wrong.....but I hope it was never a likely explanation...we probably have a better explanation now....barrel refit botched? g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srvet Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Or was a 223 reamer passed part way in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Or was a 223 reamer passed part way in? Thats exactly what i was thinking, which in my opinion could be the only answer especially if Savage use pilotless reamers like Remington use, that combined with semi skilled labour who dont give a toss would not be surprising. Realistically it should not have made it through QC but even the QC operators are unskilled or semi skilled and rely on easy to use gauging set up by the QC engineers. Either that or they unscrupulously palmed it off on us Knowing it was sub standard, saying "the brits will take it" just like they did with all that blue tip HMR ammo. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 I would have really liked to see what was stamped on the barrel. What was stamped on the case-head. And - had anyone messed with the rifle since it came out of the Savage cardboard box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Thats exactly what i was thinking, which in my opinion could be the only answer especially if Savage use pilotless reamers like Remington use, that combined with semi skilled labour who dont give a toss would not be surprising. Realistically it should not have made it through QC but even the QC operators are unskilled or semi skilled and rely on easy to use gauging set up by the QC engineers. Either that or they unscrupulously palmed it off on us Knowing it was sub standard, saying "the brits will take it" just like they did with all that blue tip HMR ammo. Ian. Because of the way Savages are headspaced -on assembly- it is quite possible for a for a barrel fitter to slip in a 204 gauge, turn the barrel onto it, and tighten the nut without ever having looked into the chamber. I am familiar with Savage as they are within long eyesight of my parents home. They don't hire unskilled workers and it is very difficult to get employment there. How that aberration of a barrel got through the plant is a mystery to me. I'm sure they would like to know about it. Savage wouldn't pawn off a bad gun to any particular group. Things may have changed but in the past rifles go to a distributor who sells them abroad as well in the US. The Blue Tip HMR is here too, right? It is all suspect no matter what color the tip.~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Andrew, From what ive heard the Blue tip Hornady HMR ammo saga goes something like this, after agreeing a contract to supply Eley with 17grn Blue tip bullets for their 17 Mach II the order was cancelled, Hornady decided to load the bullets into 17 HMR ammunition. You guys in the US being suspicious about blue tip bullets instead of the usual red in Hornady ammo and the reduced price thought something must be wrong and would not buy it believing it must be in some way inferior, Hornady then said the brits will take it and shipped the majority over here. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 Andrew, From what ive heard the Blue tip Hornady HMR ammo saga goes something like this, after agreeing a contract to supply Eley with 17grn Blue tip bullets for their 17 Mach II the order was cancelled, Hornady decided to load the bullets into 17 HMR ammunition. You guys in the US being suspicious about blue tip bullets instead of the usual red in Hornady ammo and the reduced price thought something must be wrong and would not buy it believing it must be in some way inferior, Hornady then said the brits will take it and shipped the majority over here. Ian. Nothing Hornady does shocks me. I wouldn't be surprised if that was exactly the case but, it was being sold here as well for a bit. It sucked wind like many other lots of Hornady 17HMR. It would pin-hole through rodents as close range. I quit shooting 17HMR because of it's unreliability. Don't feel like the bad 17HMR ammo is targeted to the UK. It's everywhere.~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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