stephentri Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Hi I have finely made my mind up and I am getting my 223 re barrelled with a 1 in 8 twist 24 inch long to shoot the 75grain amax need to know if it's worth getting it chambered for 223AI your thoughts please Thanks Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 if your wanting more speed from the 75 gr 22br or 22/250 would be my choice. that would need some bolt work/change though and a variation which can be a long drawm out process these days.my shooting buddy has just sold his 223AI and is having a standard 223 for the 75 amax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Hi I have finely made my mind up and I am getting my 223 re barrelled with a 1 in 8 twist 24 inch long to shoot the 75grain amax need to know if it's worth getting it chambered for 223AI your thoughts please Thanks Stephen HI Steve. The 223 AI will probably gain you an extra 100 fps or so over the standard cartridge. From experience of running a couple of 24 inch 8 twist 223's - you can expect velocities of between 2800 - 2950 fps. Although both of mine performed best below 2900 fps. In terms of perfomance at 500 yrds. Heres how they could stack up. 223 - 75 grn Amax @ 2900 fps - Range 500 yrds = Drop 51.2 inches - Drift in 10 mph cross wind = 20.1 inches 223 AI 75 grn Amax @ 3000fps - Range 500 yrds = Drop 47.7 inches - Drift in 10 mph cross wind = 19.7 inches The AI seems a case of making a good thing a little better. SiSnipe or 24 Sniper will be long soon ATB S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephentri Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 if your wanting more speed from the 75 gr 22br or 22/250 would be my choice. that would need some bolt work/change though and a variation which can be a long drawm out process these days.my shooting buddy has just sold his 223AI and is having a standard 223 for the 75 amax Why is he changing from 223ai to 223 did he not like the ai for some reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Why is he changing from 223ai to 223 did he not like the ai for some reason the 223ai just didn't perform like he hoped nothing to do with the case just a rifle that was nothing special. the 223 that he is changing to is one he missed out on last year that came back up for sale so he jumped on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Stephen,the easy decision is indeed to go for 1 in 8 and 75 bullets,which will give either 223 a bit more reach. But,as no doubt you have been pondering,is AI worth while? Well,barrel costs will be the same,as you will have to go custom chamber/barrel (for the A!) so it would not be fair to compare to factory 223. Dies might be a little more.Barrel wear won't be significantly less,recoil very close. Pork chop gives an example of individual rifle differences-that would crucially include accuracy-but you can't predict that in a new barrel. Sherlock's ballistic data really tell the story-improved performance can be the only reason for AI,and it is not very large-500y is quite a long shot-needing some precision at small targets,like corvids-they are thin!. Vertical is not the issue-you have to laser the range and then have it precisely.so just click in -and 3 or four more clicks make no difference to precision,or speed etc. The problem is always going to be wind-not at muzzle but aggregated all the way out to 500 over uneven terrain,(if field shooting).There really is no difference in wind,and either is looking like 2 inches for each mph error-keeping judgement to +/-2mph would be very good wind reading.No gain then where it really might have mattered.(why the 22/250 and 6mm have an edge with distance). But that really isn't much of an argument against AI,other than the need for fire forming brass etc. That's why it's a close call ballistically,and may matter very little-especially if you have a realistic expectation of what is on offer either way. Better accuracy would be the clincher for a custom barrel for me,but that doesn't decide the chamber-unless you have a special requirement either way. Enjoy gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22cf Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I had a semi custom .223ai built and was very disappointed with the project overall, the rifle had a 26" 8 twist Kreiger barrel in a Tikka T3 action, bedded into a McMillan stock. When I went to the range with a friend and his standard .223rem the 223 generated virtually the same velocities without all hassle of a fireforming and custom AI reloading gear. The groups in both were sub 0.5" consistently at 100m which is what I expect from a Tikka, but the diference in velocities was nothing like what I expected. Bear in mind that just because your case holds slightly more powder it doesnt mean you will find an accuracy node using that extra case capacity, I didn't. If you do find an accuracy node using the extra case capacity, the slight velocity increase will give you marginally smaller drops and windage at range but nothing that an extra click on your scope wont compensate for. If you shoot a .223rem and want a flatter shooting calibre don't mess around with the .223ai, go get yourself a 22-250rem or 22br and get an extra 200-300fps. Just my first hand experiences and my 2p's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Not worth the effort. Ackley improved was fine 30 years ago when the choice of powder was negligible. Similar velocities can be achieved these days with the standard case and a better powder choice. It has case life benefits....they don't stretch the same, and the powder burns inside the case rather than the throat. You will need custom dies of some sort as the standard ackley dies sold by redding etc don't usually match the reamers used. Get your new barrel chambered in Wylde or AR match, or any long throated 223 and you will be just fine with the standard case. The ackleys can be a pig to feed too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephentri Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Not worth the effort. Ackley improved was fine 30 years ago when the choice of powder was negligible. Similar velocities can be achieved these days with the standard case and a better powder choice. It has case life benefits....they don't stretch the same, and the powder burns inside the case rather than the throat. You will need custom dies of some sort as the standard ackley dies sold by redding etc don't usually match the reamers used. Get your new barrel chambered in Wylde or AR match, or any long throated 223 and you will be just fine with the standard case. The ackleys can be a pig to feed too. Thanks for the info as I want rifle to feed for magazine, looking at quick loader reloader 17 looks like a good power for the 75grain amax what's your thoughts on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Agree with Baldie - the 223 AI must be THE most pointless AI! And yes, I have had one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephentri Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Agree with Baldie - the 223 AI must be THE most pointless AI! And yes, I have had one. So iam best stick with the 223 and forget the ai,iam getting it chambered to suit the 75grain amax 2.460 oal what powder would you recommend it's a 24 inch barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si-Snipe Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I've owned an AI and then immediately after a standard. I'd never have another AI. Feeding is a frustrating affair, donuts form more easily, cases extract with less ease due to the almost parallel walls and fire forming becomes a pain when you just want 100 more new cases. My friend followed in my foot steps and regrets his AI choice almost from the very start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephentri Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I've owned an AI and then immediately after a standard. I'd never have another AI. Feeding is a frustrating affair, donuts form more easily, cases extract with less ease due to the almost parallel walls and fire forming becomes a pain when you just want 100 more new cases. My friend followed in my foot steps and regrets his AI choice almost from the very start. Thanks for the info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si-Snipe Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 All that hassle for realistically an extra 50-100 fps (with the heavier bullets) for comparable pressure. Run that through the ballistic app and it's not worth thinking about. As a real comparison my friend and I both run 22" 1:7 barrels. He is running AI and I am running standard. Our velocities are very similar if not the same. He said he's going to re-cut the chamber in 223 when the throat wears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephentri Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 All that hassle for realistically an extra 50-100 fps (with the heavier bullets) for comparable pressure. Run that through the ballistic app and it's not worth thinking about. As a real comparison my friend and I both run 22" 1:7 barrels. He is running AI and I am running standard. Our velocities are very similar if not the same. He said he's going to re-cut the chamber in 223 when the throat wears.What velocities were you and your friend getting could you please tell me you load data Thanks Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si-Snipe Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 My friend was running 2800 with 80's. I was easily able to match that with my standard. I didn't do much with the 80's as I couldn't get the consistency accuracy I could with 75's. My optimum charge weight with 75's was low velocity and pressure. 24.4g N140 giving 2800 fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Thanks for the info as I want rifle to feed for magazine, looking at quick loader reloader 17 looks like a good power for the 75grain amax what's your thoughts on this Wrong powder, RL15 or an equivalent is better So iam best stick with the 223 and forget the ai,iam getting it chambered to suit the 75grain amax 2.460 oal what powder would you recommend it's a 24 inch barrel. RS52 It performs extremely well, gives better than average velocity and is readily available. Here's a serious question, what is the fixation with 75 Amax's on UKV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 My friend was running 2800 with 80's. I was easily able to match that with my standard. I didn't do much with the 80's as I couldn't get the consistency accuracy I could with 75's. My optimum charge weight with 75's was low velocity and pressure. 24.4g N140 giving 2800 fps. What 80's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Stephen,you have a lot of informed good advice here-another excellent resource is Accurate Shooter website,which will be very informative,though US oriented. You will see that even this expert/enthusiasts site isn't overly keen on 223AI,and also learn to balance claims-maybe less time spent trimming brass,but then there is the faff of fire forming it,just as an example.You may not be able to get eg all the powders,but you will be able to get some,and be advised by what shooters on this site recommend. Also,be aware that your ultimate use for the rifle/cartridge might just nudge a decision-sometimes users in one area(target eg ) miss a few issues for different users (eg varminters),and vice versa.Well,quite often,actually.Experience is very useful,otherwise the wheel is reinvented rooked again,but it has to be relevant experience and advice. gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Mark,as I understand it,the 75Amax is highly regarded by some small varmint shooters for longer range ballistic performance,but crucially for terminal performance. As you well know,any bullet will put a hole in paper,or down an electronic etc target,but the shooter of sentient critters has to do all he can to achieve a humane kill.Some bullets have been found better than others in practise.Ballistically,the Amax series offer advantages generally,for some longer range suitably twisted targeteeers.(take it how you will) They may/not have magazine issues,which won't appeal to some shooters in some target disciplines. No doubt others will comment;it's yet another 'horses for course' issue.As others have argued,the lack of a suitable varmint bullet of 115 g in 6mm means fast twist 6mms are disadvantaged,despite what would otherwise be a considerable ballistic advantage over 224s.And so it goes... g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephentri Posted March 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Wrong powder, RL15 or an eq uivalent is better Sorry made a mistake when I was looking at quick loader it was for the 223AI with reloader 17. The powders I can get most easily are vit and reloader would n140 or n540 be a good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Sorry made a mistake when I was looking at quick loader it was for the 223AI with reloader 17. The powders I can get most easily are vit and reloader would n140 or n540 be a good choice.I'm sure they'd be fine.As others state, I'd just stick with a .223. Albeit one with a longer throat such as a Wylde or AR Match. Goerge, understand now about the terminal ballistics. I personally don't see it as a choice for LR accuracy, otherwise it'd be more popular in competition circles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Stephen,look up Vihtavuori loading manual on the net. As shooters on here have recommended,V140 is a good choice, N540 might give a few more fps,but I hope we've dispelled that illusory advantage already,and at a price-it burns hot,so barrel wear will be increased. Stick with recommended non hot V140 loads for the heavier bullets.(V135 is fine for lighter). I have found over a wide cartridge range that Viht powder is good- IF I could only access one make,that would do just fine.(V133 is the choice for BR 6PPC -a good accuracy endorsement!) Try V140. gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephentri Posted March 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Stephen,look up Vihtavuori loading manual on the net. As shooters on here have recommended,V140 is a good choice, N540 might give a few more fps,but I hope we've dispelled that illusory advantage already,and at a price-it burns hot,so barrel wear will be increased. Stick with recommended non hot V140 loads for the heavier bullets.(V135 is fine for lighter). I have found over a wide cartridge range that Viht powder is good- IF I could only access one make,that would do just fine.(V133 is the choice for BR 6PPC -a good accuracy endorsement!) Try V140. gbal thanks i use vit 133 for 50 grain v-max i find it very good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephentri Posted March 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Cartridge : .223 Rem. (SAAMI) Bullet : .224, 75, Hornady A-MAX 22792 Useable Case Capaci: 25.481 grain H2O = 1.654 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.460 inch = 62.48 mm Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders. Matching Maximum Pressure: 54000 psi, or 372 MPa or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 % These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window. C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON ! 146 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 100%. These powders have been skipped. Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- ReloadSwiss RS 60 109.4 26.9 1.75 2965 98.6 54000 8160 1.102 ! Near Maximum ! Elcho 17 108.6 26.8 1.73 2953 97.8 54000 8018 1.104 ! Near Maximum ! Alliant Reloder-17 108.6 26.8 1.73 2953 97.8 54000 8018 1.104 ! Near Maximum ! ReloadSwiss RS 52 105.3 25.5 1.65 2908 97.8 54000 7497 1.115 ! Near Maximum ! IMR 3031 103.6 22.7 1.47 2905 100.0 54000 6846 1.119 ! Near Maximum ! SNPE Vectan SP 11 106.2 25.8 1.67 2902 97.4 54000 7501 1.115 ! Near Maximum ! IMR 4895 102.3 24.0 1.56 2896 97.6 54000 7463 1.127 ! Near Maximum ! Vihtavuori N550 110.0 26.4 1.71 2895 95.6 52815 7720 1.129 ! Near Maximum ! Ramshot Big Game 102.8 25.7 1.67 2894 97.3 54000 7415 1.116 ! Near Maximum ! PB Clermont PCL 511 110.0 27.5 1.78 2893 93.4 53958 7743 1.116 ! Near Maximum ! Hodgdon H414 107.7 26.8 1.73 2892 92.4 54000 7676 1.116 ! Near Maximum ! Winchester 760 107.7 26.8 1.73 2892 92.4 54000 7676 1.116 ! Near Maximum ! Bofors RP3 105.8 25.1 1.63 2889 98.4 54000 7358 1.135 ! Near Maximum ! Norma 203 old 105.8 25.1 1.63 2889 98.4 54000 7358 1.135 ! Near Maximum ! Accurate 4064 106.2 24.4 1.58 2885 100.0 54000 7041 1.154 ! Near Maximum ! Norma 203B 103.6 24.3 1.58 2883 97.6 54000 7364 1.129 ! Near Maximum ! Rottweil R903 108.2 25.1 1.63 2879 98.2 54000 7271 1.135 ! Near Maximum ! Bofors RP11 ~approximation 103.0 24.2 1.57 2879 97.0 54000 7365 1.129 ! Near Maximum ! Alliant Reloder-15 103.0 24.2 1.57 2879 97.0 54000 7365 1.129 ! Near Maximum ! Raufoss RA11 103.0 24.2 1.57 2879 97.0 54000 7365 1.129 ! Near Maximum ! Accurate 2495 100.2 23.0 1.49 2877 100.0 54000 6757 1.159 ! Near Maximum ! Lovex D073.6 100.4 24.3 1.57 2873 99.6 54000 6996 1.138 ! Near Maximum ! ReloadSwiss RS 62 110.0 27.1 1.75 2867 95.4 49896 7703 1.151 ! Near Maximum ! Somchem S355 107.6 24.7 1.60 2866 98.0 54000 7228 1.135 ! Near Maximum ! Hodgdon H380 104.3 25.0 1.62 2855 95.4 54000 7310 1.135 ! Near Maximum ! IMR 4320 104.6 24.2 1.57 2855 97.2 54000 7083 1.117 ! Near Maximum ! SNPE Vectan SP 9 100.0 24.3 1.57 2851 97.4 54000 7127 1.129 ! Near Maximum ! ReloadSwiss RS 70 110.0 27.5 1.78 2851 93.0 50885 7887 1.141 ! Near Maximum ! Norma 202 100.1 23.1 1.50 2848 99.9 54000 6797 1.135 ! Near Maximum ! Vihtavuori N540 102.4 24.3 1.58 2848 99.8 54000 6904 1.133 ! Near Maximum ! Lovex S062 104.0 23.8 1.54 2846 98.7 54000 6986 1.140 ! Near Maximum ! ReloadSwiss RS 50 102.3 25.0 1.62 2842 95.6 54000 7150 1.132 ! Near Maximum ! PB Clermont PCL 516 100.1 25.1 1.62 2842 95.3 54000 7186 1.129 ! Near Maximum ! Vihtavuori N135 109.7 23.4 1.51 2837 100.0 54000 6381 1.135 ! Near Maximum ! Elcho TR140 - preliminary data 103.6 25.1 1.63 2836 95.5 54000 7106 1.133 ! Near Maximum ! Norma 201 100.5 23.1 1.50 2832 98.6 54000 6934 1.147 ! Near Maximum ! Hodgdon VARGET 104.9 23.8 1.54 2828 96.7 54000 7008 1.127 ! Near Maximum ! ADI AR 2208 104.5 23.8 1.54 2828 96.7 54000 7008 1.127 ! Near Maximum ! IMR 4064 105.8 23.5 1.52 2824 96.9 54000 6909 1.132 ! Near Maximum ! Rottweil R902 102.4 23.2 1.50 2823 98.6 54000 6844 1.148 ! Near Maximum ! Vihtavuori N140 102.2 23.5 1.53 2822 99.9 54000 6526 1.134 ! Near Maximum ! Lovex S065 110.0 25.3 1.64 2805 94.1 53116 7073 1.150 ! Near Maximum ! Bofors RP3 NT ~approximation 107.2 25.0 1.62 2804 94.1 54000 6910 1.127 ! Ne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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