Barricade shooting at Bisley?

[Lateo]

Simple question - has anyone ever attempted it or ran one at Bisley?

 

We're looking to propose a static shoot on fixed firing points.

Exposures akin to McQueen & Methuan.

No movement but multiple exposures around fixed objects.

Standing supported, kneeling, seated and prone within various exposures.

 

Manoeuvre over obstacles is referred to under Bible SECTION 64 RAPID, FIRE WITH MOVEMENT AND SNAPSHOOTING COMPETITIONS but this doesn't necessarily sanction shooting 'from' an obstacle

 

Barricades would be slotted panels (various positions), tank-traps (seated&kneeling) & incline boards (prone)

 

Do I have a hope in hell of getting this beyond the Range Office and NRA ?

 

Thanks in advance

[bradders]

No reason why not, but it would be best to run it by Peter Cottrell, head of Shooting and Competitions.

Are you an NRA member?

[Lateo]

No reason why not, but it would be best to run it by Peter Cottrell, head of Shooting and Competitions.

Are you an NRA member?

 

Yes and yes ... Or rather my Club would fully expect me to get it sanctioned by the 'powers that be' before I took it any further.

 

Barricades would be quick-build affairs - meaning that we can stick to the typical club shooting format and not get in anyone's way

 

I'd position an RSO per barricade and then have an RCO running a maximum of three firing points.

 

Cheers for the heads up - I'll contact Peter in the New Year

[bradders]

We already use barricades in the Urban Contact match at 100 & 75yds on Siberia

 

What distances are you thinking of?

[Lateo]

We already use barricades in the Urban Contact match at 100 & 75yds on Siberia

 

What distances are you thinking of?

Initially static 200m on Siberia using a McQueen type course of fire

 

Instead of ten exposure of 3 seconds it would be ten exposures of 6 seconds, allowing a change of position and magazine change. No one would manoeuvre between firming points but would be expected to change position of aim.

 

Though popular, Siberia would keep us away from Century and could be easily marshalled during the trials

 

Once we've seen that people can adequately handle themselves we'd adjust to longer ranges & perhaps falling back.

 

Knowing your experience with CSR etc, would that sound safe / effective / interesting etc? It could translate between optic CSR and traditional target shooting

[bradders]

OK,

One problem you may encounter is that with any movement with a firearm and having people forward and to the left of you at 100m, the range staff might get a bit emotional at what you're proposing.

I personally don't see anything wrong with it though.

Trying to take two shots from two different positions within 6 seconds sounds tough, and possibly not doable.

A better way may be to keep the timings to 3 seconds, but allow a 5 or 6 second transition period to allow them to move.

It's baby steps here, remember that. It can lead on to other stuff later.

 

Furthermore, I would suggest making all movement with either the fired case in the chamber or the bolt back.

[brown dog]

 

One problem you may encounter is that with any movement with a firearm and having people forward and to the left of you at 100m, the range staff might get a bit emotional at what you're proposing.

 

 

Forget the range staff, I think, if I was one of the people forward left or right (or do people only ND to the left at Bisley?! ), I might get a bit emotional ..........

 

 

Like the sound of the obstacle shooting though .......anything that takes away the tedium of a fixed distance square range has to be a good thing

[Lateo]

OK,

One problem you may encounter is that with any movement with a firearm and having people forward and to the left of you at 100m, the range staff might get a bit emotional at what you're proposing.

 

I personally don't see anything wrong with it though.

 

Trying to take two shots from two different positions within 6 seconds sounds tough, and possibly not doable.

 

A better way may be to keep the timings to 3 seconds, but allow a 5 or 6 second transition period to allow them to move.

It's baby steps here, remember that. It can lead on to other stuff later.

 

Furthermore, I would suggest making all movement with either the fired case in the chamber or the bolt back.

All good points & duly noted with thanks

 

Bolts would be back until the club were 100% happy. And if not Siberia, I'd still request 200 on Century

 

I was initially thinking of longer exposures than McQueen & then improving over time and competency. Say :-

 

COF: (6 second exposure / 10 seconds to reposition ) over 10 rounds

 

I know the exposure sounds long but it allows for all ages and ability, without anyone getting too emotional.

 

For instance any less ambulant competitor might use up to13 seconds to reposition and then still have a reasonable target window to fire.

 

Example: The slotted board could have a total of 3 shots in a crouch, 3 shots standing-supported, 3 shots kneeling & 1 shot standing unsupported. The firer would have to change to a position of choice each time, whilst the McQueen target moved too.

 

The intended effect would be to shoot under minor duress, using less popular or well trained positions & holds, and to eliminate the overuse of bipod and monopods.

 

Adopting the most effective position and hold would be the 'name of the game', whilst compensating for changes in breathing pattern and sight picture

[Tiff]

 

Forget the range staff, I think, if I was one of the people forward left or right (or do people only ND to the left at Bisley?! ), I might get a bit emotional ..........

 

 

Personally I'd rather have someone moving (with an empty chamber & bolt back) behind me at Bisley, than some of the older TR guys shooting with slings & jackets. 200 mils (well 7 or 8 lanes) doesn't feel like a lot on a flat range; when you see some of their muzzle awareness while chambering a round Staggered shooting scared the proverbial out of me at 15, shooting on Stickledown for the first time (on my own…), when people started firing behind me unannounced. I'd never been on a range that did staggered shooting before (didn't even know it existed at the time), plus I had it to myself all morning being mid-winter. Nearly dived into the fence at 800 taking cover thinking they hadn't seen me from the 1,000 point …...

 

Back on topic it sounds great, although as stated consider your timings and barricade design will affect it considerably Many people (regardless of how 'tactical' their rifle is), do not like to shove the barrel through a tight letterbox onto bare wood etc. Plus I'm not sure how range staff would be with rifles on their sides, especially at distance. Down here on the local MOD 600 yd gallery range we have 4" square 8' posts that go vertically into brackets, to allow simulated positional shooting from behind cover etc. - Great fun

[bradders]

Back on topic it sounds great, although as stated consider your timings and barricade design will affect it considerably Many people (regardless of how 'tactical' their rifle is), do not like to shove the barrel through a tight letterbox onto bare wood etc. Plus I'm not sure how range staff would be with rifles on their sides, especially at distance. Down here on the local MOD 600 yd gallery range we have 4" square 8' posts that go vertically into brackets, to allow simulated positional shooting from behind cover etc. - Great fun

 

That's why some of us have 15" hand guards on our rifles

 

Or if it is a problem, then some tape applied to the stock/barrel, or foam/pipe lagging taped to the apertures will prevent any damage

[brown dog]

 

Personally I'd rather have someone moving (with an empty chamber & bolt back) behind me at Bisley, than some of the older TR guys shooting with slings & jackets. 200 mils (well 7 or 8 lanes) doesn't feel like a lot on a flat range; when you see some of their muzzle awareness while chambering a round Staggered shooting scared the proverbial out of me at 15, shooting on Stickledown for the first time (on my own…), when people started firing behind me unannounced. I'd never been on a range that did staggered shooting before (didn't even know it existed at the time), plus I had it to myself all morning being mid-winter. Nearly dived into the fence at 800 taking cover thinking they hadn't seen me from the 1,000 point …...

 

A supervised empty chamber and bolt back.....not a prob. Didn't think that's what Mark was suggesting? Any movement with a closed bolt -even on a 'fired' case would have me spilling my tea. People do strange things under pressure; wouldn't surprise me at all for people to occasionally move without firing - thus retaining a live round up the spout whilst moving.

Bisley's staggered shooting system is....umm; 'unique'. A late entry officer (ie officer commissioned from the ranks) acquaintance of mine took over range safety sign off for S UK a decade or so ago; he came in one morning during his HO/TO having just visited Bisley for the first time ever.....his question was to the effect - staggered firing - what the f is that all about?! Lost touch with him; but I think he refused to sign Bisley off - no idea how it was resolved; but staggered firing by (let's face it) untrained and unsupervised amateurs is so profoundly unsafe I can never believe it's taking place when I'm there. Not fair just to single out the TR chaps; I routinely see shocking muzzle awareness and individuals muzzle sweeping whole firing lines from all flavours.

[baldie]

Movement with a chambered live round and safety applied is already done on the CSR rundowns Matt.

 

I prefer to run with the last fired case in my gun. Two reasons really. I couldn't live with myself if I caused an accident, and also because the loaded round overheats [cooks off ] on the rundown.

 

I have no problems with others doing it though. Every man/woman has their own RO who runs behind them.

[John MH]

Problem with a AR is you can't apply the safety unless the rifle is cocked and unless you unload before cocking your going to chamber a live round in order to be able to apply the safety. Safety catch function checks are the norm a Bisley before any Fire and Movement stage.

 

Whats proposed by the OP for Short Siberia would make me uncomfortable if I was at 100 yards as manoeuvring between barricade apertures will most likely result in wandering muzzles of some sort.

[brown dog]

Dredging memory on this; but I seem to remember the trained soldier way on a square range is 'make safe' before movement......Unload followed by by load. Empty chamber, uncocked action.

[John MH]

Not on a rundown, movement is with a round chambered and safety applied.

[brown dog]

Dredging memory on this; but I seem to remember the trained soldier way on a square range is 'make safe' before movement......Unload followed by by load. Empty chamber, uncocked action.

 

Movement with a chambered live round and safety applied is already done on the CSR rundowns Matt.

 

 

I know. Makes me blink to even think about it...saw a vid of it a while back, don't think the advancing line is kept level either.......I'd be at the back on one of those

[bradders]

Dredging memory on this; but I seem to remember the trained soldier way on a square range is 'make safe' before movement......Unload followed by by load. Empty chamber, uncocked action.

 

 

I know. Makes me blink to even think about it...I'd be at the back on one of those

Well it shouldn't

 

Dredging memory on this; but I seem to remember the trained soldier way on a square range is 'make safe' before movement......Unload followed by by load. Empty chamber, uncocked action.

Not on a Queen Mary or Methuen practise, that's Matches 4 & 8 to you, or as they are known now, Matches 46 & 47 I think

[6.5shooter]

In our practical pistol comps we have to move with a live round in the chamber as the pistols are semi auto.

Upmost safety is required

[TSG]

Fine at 100 and below, not enough mils to play with at the longer firing point IMHO. I hate shooting on Short Siberia with people at 200. I get that feeling where your balls retreat back into your body!

[Bushdog]

In our practical pistol comps we have to move with a live round in the chamber as the pistols are semi auto.

Upmost safety is required

Seems like this is a different deal, though. Every practical pistol match I have competed in has only had one shooter moving and shooting at a time with 1 RO/SO behind them. Been to lots of them where a whole line remains stationary and draws a loaded pistol from holster and shoot at a static target array in their "lane" without further movement, though. Most NDs seem to occur when drawing or re-holstering in my experience.

 

I see the concerns about moving a line with loaded, safe rifles, but its normal practice to move around with loaded guns in many walks of life, so should be within the wit of man to achieve without mishap. I admit I have shot with some I would not trust to move from A-B with a hard boiled egg and not have a mishap, but I would be perfectly happy to take part in such an event with grown-ups of any age.

[6.5shooter]

Seems like this is a different deal, though. Every practical pistol match I have competed in has only had one shooter moving and shooting at a time with 1 RO/SO behind them. Been to lots of them where a whole line remains stationary and draws a loaded pistol from holster and shoot at a static target array in their "lane" without further movement, though. Most NDs seem to occur when drawing or re-holstering in my experience.

 

I see the concerns about moving a line with loaded, safe rifles, but its normal practice to move around with loaded guns in many walks of life, so should be within the wit of man to achieve without mishap. I admit I have shot with some I would not trust to move from A-B with a hard boiled egg and not have a mishap, but I would be perfectly happy to take part in such an event with grown-ups of any age.

 

Yes this is the way its done. The muzzle of the pistol is pointed down range at all times.

[brown dog]

I see the concerns about moving a line with loaded, safe rifles, but its normal practice to move around with loaded guns in many walks of life, so should be within the wit of man to achieve without mishap.

 

Loaded 'yes', made-ready 'no'. People only mooch about with weapons made-ready if the threat outweighs the ND risk.

 

 

Bushdog, on 23 Dec 2013 - 2:11 PM, said:

so should be within the wit of man to achieve without mishap.

 

Sadly not. NDs are a fact of life. Once spent 7 weeks sitting on the board of a Courts Martial that was all about a death resulting from weapon handling. And beyond that; everyone will have seen, heard or done them at some point in their life. Anyone who hasn't hasn't been around firearms for significant time.

 

2mins35-38, spot the chap in orange (yes, I know who it is ) get muzzle swept with a made ready rifle at the start of the final run here:

 

I'll be jogging at the back

[Redshift]

One of the clubs I belong to holds a similar shoot at bisley, it involves shooting prone, off hand, kneeling and sitting , if I remember right, at 200yds ( short Siberia ) it's just prone with timed turning targets and mad minute, 100yds it's the other disciplines, each shooter is accompanied by an r/o.

Each discipline starts with a round up the pipe and safety on, the club run the comp in late dec/ early jan, off the top of my head I can't remember how many lanes the N.R.A cordon off to allow this shoot to go ahead. I'm sure the N.R.A only allow this type of shoot in the low season.

I apologise for the thinks and remembers but as a lefty trying to shoot an old military bolt action and getting gubbed all the time I haven't shot it for years( plus I'm a wimp and don't like shooting in ice and snow)

 

Redshift

[Bushdog]

 

Loaded 'yes', made-ready 'no'. People only mooch about with weapons made-ready if the threat outweighs the ND risk.

 

 

Sadly not. NDs are a fact of life. Once spent 7 weeks sitting on the board of a Courts Martial that was all about a death resulting from weapon handling. And beyond that; everyone will have seen, heard or done them at some point in their life. Anyone who hasn't hasn't been around firearms much.

 

2mins35-38, spot the chap in orange (yes, I know who it is ) get muzzle swept with a made ready rifle at the start of the final run here:

 

I'll be jogging at the back

Tend to agree on all points, although would point out that you are likely to miss an awful lot of chances if your gun has nothing up the spout when woodland stalking and rough shooting. I know its a very different endeavour and in a somewhat less crowded environment, but.....

 

Absolutely agree re seeing NDs, have sadly seen them in many different situations (and had a couple, to my shame). You are right, apparently - it is beyond the wit of most of us, at least all the time!

 

The course in the film looks jolly good fun, though. The risk of ND in that scenario seems somewhat less likely than at a practical pistol match (I have been running stages when people have had NDs relating to drawing or otherwise accessing their pistol on a couple of occasions, thankfully in all cases with no injuries to anything but composure, pride and wallet!!). My initial point was really only that in pistol matches, there is lots of fire and movement with loaded cocked weapons with safeties off, but never in my experience any form of echelon movement in that condition.

 

In general my feeling was that it is more difficult (but certainly agree, not impossible) to have an ND while manipulating a rifle thus. The risk/likelihood balance seems about right there, to my mind, though I note the incident you pointed out is much less than ideal, and is somewhat likely to occur when older and rounder people are trying to get up - I can say that without fear of insulting anyone, as I am sadly the wrong side of both 50 years and 18 stone!!! I know I tend to struggle like a sheep on its back these days when going from kneeling or sitting to standing. If I had anything to do with running it, I would think about not allowing the line to move until all were on their feet, rather than enforce unloading before moving or otherwise changing it.

[John MH]

It's fine as it is and the same way the Military do it, although the Military don't require a safety catch function check prior to the practice.