Flyers......

[wabbit evaporator]

I shoot a 6x47 Lap with 105grn berger hybrids, 38.4grn IMR 4350 and CCI 450 primers. The brass is 4 times fired Lapua.

 

On Sunday I shot 3, 5 shot groups on the trot that had a flyer in them...... 4 rounds going into sub .25 with the flyer pushing the group out to .5/.6. This then happened again at 200 yards. 4 shots into well under half an inch with a flyer opening the group out to an inch or slightly larger.

 

Any thoughts? The flyer is random in its appearance in the shot sequence. I.e its not necessarily the last or first shot (I am not bottling it!). Previously the rifle has been sub .3MOA all day long at 100 yards.

 

Things I have considered:

 

1. Colder weather lowering my pressures out of the accuracy node.

2. Throat erosion leading to the need for longer OAL (400 rounds through barrel)

3. Shite rear bag (sand filled plastic bag covered in cotton from a pillowcase)

4. Me shooting like a retard.

 

Would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this!

 

 

[6.5shooter]

Try changing youre primers.

Give rem 7 1/2 br a go. I use them in mine with imr4350 and the gun is flawless.

They are the hottest burning small rifle primer.

Just a thought as this sounds like a primer possibility.

[jcampbellsmith]

How are the case necks performing? Has the brass been annealed? Regards JCS

[The Gun Pimp]

Were you using windflags? Many shooters think that a heavy bullet travelling at 3000 fps won't be affected by the wind - remember - any wind affects any bullet at any range.

 

We shoot 100 yard benchrest with the most accurate rifles on tte planet but, without windflags, it would be a joke!

[wabbit evaporator]

Three responses and three excellent bits of advice! Thank you everyone.

 

I will try the primers... It did group nicely with the 450s before.

 

Case necks are a good question. They look OK but then I am completely new to reloading so wouldn't really know what to look for anyway. The bullets do seem to seat with even pressure though. They have not been annealed..... yet. Do I need to look at having that done at this point?

 

Windwise, no wind flags however wind on Sunday felt fairly constant and was light. The flyers had a fair amount of elevation in them as well though and were totally random in dispersion.

 

I know everyone's rifle groups "sub .25 MOA" all day long but mine really was shooting beautifully until this slight issue, I will try and get some photos of the groups from yesterday up. Any thoughts on the throat having moved?

[gbal]

There will be an explanation! It is less likely to be via a factor that is actually probably the same for all five shots-eg the temperature,or throat erosion,or primers,for example.(and one in every five string seems a bit regular too-if it were primers,etc,sometimes you'd get two,sometimes none etc.....).And this has just started,with no other loading change?The DIY bag pressure might vary....does it happen with another shooter...?

As Vince says,so does wind-and it is very difficult to tell if there has been a wind change downrange,even if your Kestrel says no at the muzzle.

But try the suggested changes-be interesting to see what the cure is!

 

Gbal

[wabbit evaporator]

This kept me up last night.....

 

So minus the flyers the groups are .166, .156 and .261 at 100 yards.

 

At 200 yards they were .343, .451, & .38. Other 200 yard targets were obliterated by 7mm zeroing session afterwards...... This is how the rifle normally shoots five shots...... You can see from the photos that the flyer is randomly dispersed in the group and as I said earlier, it doesn't appear at any particular point in the group.

 

Could my brass be the cause of it? Have been thinking about getting it annealed but it looks fine. Will dig out some primers but again, could these really make a difference particularly considering it is putting 4 shots on top of each other.

 

I guess this is a great example of why 3 shot groups are fairly meaningless!

 

 

 

 

 

[andybrock]

Just a thought if you suspect your cases are the problem, next time you shoot a few groups and you get flyers keep the offending cases separate and reload them and fire a group with them and see what happens...... not sure what it will prove but may point you in the right direction.

[gbal]

This kept me up last night.....

 

So minus the flyers the groups are .166, .156 and .261 at 100 yards.

 

At 200 yards they were .343, .451, & .38. Other 200 yard targets were obliterated by 7mm zeroing session afterwards...... This is how the rifle normally shoots five shots...... You can see from the photos that the flyer is randomly dispersed in the group and as I said earlier, it doesn't appear at any particular point in the group.

 

Could my brass be the cause of it? Have been thinking about getting it annealed but it looks fine. Will dig out some primers but again, could these really make a difference particularly considering it is putting 4 shots on top of each other.

 

I guess this is a great example of why 3 shot groups are fairly meaningless!

 

 

 

 

If you had noticed and kept each 'wayward' case separate,you could reload and check them again-as before,though,it does not look as if all the brass has gone-far from it-4/5 shoot very well,though it is still a bit odd that each set of five have only one rogue -though it's possible on a small sample. Yes,five is better than three and 5x5 better still,when diagnosing or confirming performance,as you say. Before changing anything in a load that looks -and was - very good-I'd try to identify these suspect cases and shoot them again-if they don't shoot like the others,then they are probably the weak link.Measuring them might help identify if they are different-and maybe best just keep as separate for fouling shots etc?(mark with a pen on the face).

Gbal

 

PS just as Andybrock says-I type too slow/say too much

[The Gun Pimp]

This kept me up last night.....

 

So minus the flyers the groups are .166, .156 and .261 at 100 yards.

 

At 200 yards they were .343, .451, & .38. Other 200 yard targets were obliterated by 7mm zeroing session afterwards...... This is how the rifle normally shoots five shots...... You can see from the photos that the flyer is randomly dispersed in the group and as I said earlier, it doesn't appear at any particular point in the group.

 

Could my brass be the cause of it? Have been thinking about getting it annealed but it looks fine. Will dig out some primers but again, could these really make a difference particularly considering it is putting 4 shots on top of each other.

 

I guess this is a great example of why 3 shot groups are fairly meaningless!

 

 

 

 

 

Stop worrying - you are already shooting to better than world class standard! The guy who won the 200 yard HV at the recent World Benchrest Championships in Australia shot 0.246, 0.913, 0.502, 0.476, 0.649 inch groups! And that was using full benchrest equipment AND windflags!

 

You were using a bi-pod and 'shite' rear bag!! Would you like to be on the GB Team for the European Benchrest Championships?

[wabbit evaporator]

Ha! Very kind to say so Vince but these flyers just weren't there before. The numbers I've given above are for FOUR shots excluding the flyer.... And I bet that guy who won the worlds was shooting in a wind.

 

What I have discovered however is that I am on a different batch of powder..... I thought it was the same as before but having checked everything it is a completely different batch. Could this be something to do with it?

 

I really wouldn't be worried if i fluffed the odd group but these flyers are consistently cropping up ( 6 strings of 5 in a row now with the random flier- although all from the first shot on this latest test). I am hoping to shoot F-Class competitively next year using this as my short range rifle. I suspect that these flyers would equate to 9 rings everything else being equal and in real world conditions adding in a minute or so of missed wind they could be eights......

 

I tried a couple of groups using virgin brass and they were .5s but this is what I found when firing the rest for the first time as well so not overly concerned about that.

[wabbit evaporator]

Might be worth adding that I am using a moderator and have been all the way through load development to now.

[Jagged 77]

At four firings I bet your cases are ready for an anneal. Read up on the technique and practice on some old cases.

[gbal]

Ha! Very kind to say so Vince but these flyers just weren't there before. The numbers I've given above are for FOUR shots excluding the flyer.... And I bet that guy who won the worlds was shooting in a wind.

 

What I have discovered however is that I am on a different batch of powder..... I thought it was the same as before but having checked everything it is a completely different batch. Could this be something to do with it?

 

I really wouldn't be worried if i fluffed the odd group but these flyers are consistently cropping up ( 6 strings of 5 in a row now with the random flier- although all from the first shot on this latest test). I am hoping to shoot F-Class competitively next year using this as my short range rifle. I suspect that these flyers would equate to 9 rings everything else being equal and in real world conditions adding in a minute or so of missed wind they could be eights......

 

I tried a couple of groups using virgin brass and they were .5s but this is what I found when firing the rest for the first time as well so not overly concerned about that.

Ha! Very kind to say so Vince but these flyers just weren't there before. The numbers I've given above are for FOUR shots excluding the flyer.... And I bet that guy who won the worlds was shooting in a wind.

 

What I have discovered however is that I am on a different batch of powder..... I thought it was the same as before but having checked everything it is a completely different batch. Could this be something to do with it?

 

I really wouldn't be worried if i fluffed the odd group but these flyers are consistently cropping up ( 6 strings of 5 in a row now with the random flier- although all from the first shot on this latest test). I am hoping to shoot F-Class competitively next year using this as my short range rifle. I suspect that these flyers would equate to 9 rings everything else being equal and in real world conditions adding in a minute or so of missed wind they could be eights......

 

I tried a couple of groups using virgin brass and they were .5s but this is what I found when firing the rest for the first time as well so not overly concerned about that.

It's very unlikely that the flyers-one in each group-are down to a new batch of powder-after all,all the loadings are using this same new powder,which has to be consistent within itself -it might change POI,or generally loosen-or tighten-groups,but can't explain why just one in a group of five identically loaded has gone astray.

But if it is now the first shot,that is consistently the flier,then it might be that your first shot is through a cold(cooler) barrel,and/or is a 'fouling shot' if you clean between strings.Either/both of those would make your first shot conditions unlike the next four.It also makes wind error /shooter error a much less likely explanation. I'd still black spot the errant cases and check if they are errant again when reloaded and refired...(but not in the same position in the string of five,or at least not first).

Gbal

[Jagged 77]

Going back to basics - check to see if all stock, base, scope mounts are tight and torqued correctly. Make sure there is nothing loose in the sound mod etc. A slight loose sound mod can easily cause a POI shift like this.

 

Assuming all of that is ok then I'm thinking inconsistent case neck tension - hence the no flyers with virgin brass (but slightly larger groups).

 

How were the 4x fired brass to seat - were you getting equal resistance? Annealing plus good resizing technique will bottom out any issue in this area.

[Grouse]

Check the scope?

 

Just been through a similar scenario with mine - I was sure it wasn't the scope until I changed it. All sorted and scope going back to factory for repair.

[DaveT]

I would put money on a Mod loosening at various random times.....it really does screw up POI and creeps up on you if you don't snug it up tight regularly.

[gbal]

I would put money on a Mod loosening at various random times.....it really does screw up POI and creeps up on you if you don't snug it up tight regularly.

Mods loosening might well change POI.But it's hard to see how that would account for the pattern here-first shot is a flyer compared to the next 4 tight groupers (that might be a mod moving),but .....then we start a new group and get the flyer plus four tight-I don't see how that could happen unless the mod was screwed back tight after the first 5 shots,then ditto every 5 shots?

Was the mod tightened between groups?

Scopes can be a bit more pernickety-change scope is only real test of that....

Gbal

[wabbit evaporator]

Mod was tight throughout and rifle not cleaned in between strings. Minimal cooling between string 1 and 2 as well, so unlikely barrel had time to cool down sufficiently to produce the flyer. Really don't think its the scope (brand new Schmidt) as did a tracking test today and it was pretty flawless

 

To be honest this is driving me slightly nuts as I have put yet another 3 groups of 5 downrange today with the same issue. This time the flyers were not first round. The main body of the group wasn't quite so tight either (still under .3 though).

 

Can't help but feel I might need to go back to the drawing board. Will certainly look at my brass and might even shell out for another 100 cases. Will certainly get this lot annealed.

 

During load development has anyone ever seen a load that would shoot 4 into the same hole with a flyer? I do see on accurate shooter that one of the posters mentions flyers with a similar charge of H4350, he suggested his flyers disappeared as he increased his charge closer to 40grns. (bear in mind I am using IMR4350 though).

 

Thanks to all for contributions, much appreciated.

[wabbit evaporator]

ps, change in POI was me putting on 1/4 MOA right wind.

[gbal]

Mod was tight throughout and rifle not cleaned in between strings. Minimal cooling between string 1 and 2 as well, so unlikely barrel had time to cool down sufficiently to produce the flyer. Really don't think its the scope (brand new Schmidt) as did a tracking test today and it was pretty flawless

 

To be honest this is driving me slightly nuts as I have put yet another 3 groups of 5 downrange today with the same issue. This time the flyers were not first round. The main body of the group wasn't quite so tight either (still under .3 though).

 

Can't help but feel I might need to go back to the drawing board. Will certainly look at my brass and might even shell out for another 100 cases. Will certainly get this lot annealed.

 

During load development has anyone ever seen a load that would shoot 4 into the same hole with a flyer? I do see on accurate shooter that one of the posters mentions flyers with a similar charge of H4350, he suggested his flyers disappeared as he increased his charge closer to 40grns. (bear in mind I am using IMR4350 though).

 

Thanks to all for contributions, much appreciated.

 

Given this extra information,then brass is probably back to prime suspect.... if it's not the same few rogue cases-the idea of marking them would have checked this-then perhaps annealing,or as you say,a new batch,or just maybe

a careful increase in powder,if that remains clearly safe.Fingers crossed!

Gbal

[Jagged 77]

 

 

 

 

During load development has anyone ever seen a load that would shoot 4 into the same hole with a flyer?

 

Thanks to all for contributions, much appreciated.

Yes absolutely, but usually you see it coincide with a poor node like the one in the photo. The photo show's 4 loads between 43gr and 44.5gr N150 - the 43.5 (top right) demonstrates the point. It's very obvious what the rifle likes / doesn't like.

 

However if yours is a proven load the only way it could be a bad accuracy node is if the powder characteristics have changed with the new lot of powder. The other point to consider is IMR4350 temperature stable? When you initially worked up the load what were the conditions?

 

[Grouse]

Before putting a lot of components down the tube (of an obviously accurate gun), I would change scope with a known performer.

 

Even expensive scopes, and new ones at that, can go adrift. I will never trust scopes 100% when issues like this arise.

 

If you still get the flyer then at least you can cross off scope from the list of "might be's".

 

Good luck...

[wabbit evaporator]

Will definitely try another scope on the rifle however...... looking at my notes, i developed this load at 15-20 degrees celcius. It is a good deal colder than that now!

 

I have seen a number of posts on US forums about how IMR 4350 is quite temp sensitive. My current load of 38.6 is way off my max so i could happily ease it up by a tenth or two.

 

This however isn't something I really want to have to do every time the weather changes! Seeing as H4350 is such a bugger to get hold of, can anyone suggest something else for me to try to find a nice stable load? (6x47 Lap with 105 hybrids) I am not worried about another round of load development- last time it took about 50 rounds and its all good practice for a new hand loader!

 

Have tried RE17 and didn't really get on (nothing grouping really well until right up at the limits).

[Jagged 77]

Try the Viht 100 series single based powders, I've found to be very stable. You don't get the same energies and therefore velocities as the double based powders but you do get the consistency. I've no experience in 6x47 but N160 is going to be in the same burn range as H4350 and certainly is a good substitute for H4350 in .260.