Primers

[Orka Akinse]

Fellows

 

As I always used only one type of primer, CCI large rifle in my hand loads, I've never really paid that much attention to the little critters until now.

 

A mate faithfully promised me a 1000 CCI's to replenish my stock and turned up with a 1000 Federal Lge rifle primers No 210 instead quoting they are better.

 

My question is: can I use these primers instead of my faithful CCI's without any change to the performance of my rounds ie wont impact on accuracy or change my ballistic data charts?

 

 

[jcampbellsmith]

With new primers it's a new load and it needs to be worked up again. Regards JCS

[Tuck]

I went the other way orka from fed 210 to cci br2s to be honest I couldn't really tell any difference from the fedrals exept the cci's are a harder cup. I would of thought your load would be fine well mine was the other way round

 

Rob

[Orka Akinse]

With new primers it's a new load and it needs to be worked up again. Regards JCS

 

I flippin knew it......................

 

Anyone want to swop for CCI's

[garyw]

I flippin knew it......................

 

Anyone want to swop for CCI's

not always-load as normal -go shoot -see the results i wouldnt expect a vast differance maybe a little more or less velocity/pressure .just try them.

[baldie]

cci,s are a harder cup if they are Br2,s.

Federals are notoriously soft. If the load is hot, dont simply substitute them, you will pierce them if unlucky.

[jonathan.308]

I have had to change to as can not find CCI BR2's eny wear from last week using fed gold medal but working up the loads to be on the safe side, better safe then sorry. But when I can find CCI BR2's I will go back to save changing and working up on all my calibers.

[caerhays sniper]

I have had to change to as can not find CCI BR2's eny wear from last week using fed gold medal but working up the loads to be on the safe side, better safe then sorry. But when I can find CCI BR2's I will go back to save changing and working up on all my calibers.

I couldnt get Br2's either, so got CCi no.200 not tried them yet though

[Jagged 77]

I've not found much difference with BR2's and 200's and have interchanged those but I wouldn't interchange 200's for Winchester. Winchesters do most certainly have a softer cup and if your load with CCI's is stiff you may pierce the cup with the Wins.

[Mash67]

HPS at gloucester were selling CCI at the shooting show,they had em in 1000's

try them,if you go i could tag along

 

give me a call if your desperate i could lend you a couple of hundred

[oaken]

Fellows

 

OAs I always used only one type of primer, CCI large rifle in my hand loads.......

 

Ian. Stick with what you know works for you.

 

Spoke to Clinton at Dauntsey Guns near Chippenham this morning. He has a huge stock of CCI primer, he also seems to be able to get a wide selection of powders. No Varget for the foreseeable future though.

http://www.dauntseyguns.co.uk/products.php?cat=7003

Ill take the feds off you for a fair price if you don't want to change, I use them in my .243.

Rup

[Orka Akinse]

I'll do you a straight swap Rup you get 1000 Fed LR No 210 if you give me 1000 CCi 200 Std LR primers looking at Dauntsy's prices you make a saving of about 12%

[amssmith]

Would someone mind explaining why a hot load could lead to piercing of a softer primer. Is it to do with back pressure through the primer hole?

[oaken]

Ok. Works for me.

Are you wanting to share a lane at Bisley on the 20th

 

I quite like the softer primer as they flatten easily and give an immediate indication of pressure.

I used Rem 9.5s for years and find them to be very consistent but don't show pressure and find loosening primer pockets is the only real indicator.

[gunner]

does anyone know about remington primers 7+1/2 for 223 , are they harder or softer than say cci br4 ?, its just iv never tried them . im using cci at moment and have used fed 205m also !

[Swamp Donkey]

I have 850+ cci I'd swap with cash adjustment

[Orka Akinse]

Pete SD

 

Rup got in first mate so he gets em..... sorry

 

Rup

 

Cant say just now as we are due to pick up the missus new car on the 20th. PM me with a date time to do the swap.

 

Mash... thanks buddy looks like I'm sorted

[oaken]

Ian. The shop is on your doorstep mate, just get on out there and buy the CCI's. Im not planning on getting over that way for some time now.

I already have two 1K boxes of feds so not in need. Just trying to help you out bud. Happy to give you cash when our paths cross next unless you happen to be in Devz, give me a bell.

Rup

[Orka Akinse]

Ian. The shop is on your doorstep mate, just get on out there and buy the CCI's. Im not planning on getting over that way for some time now.

I already have two 1K boxes of feds so not in need. Just trying to help you out bud. Happy to give you cash when our paths cross next unless you happen to be in Devz, give me a bell.

Rup

Mind if I offer them to Pete then Rup?

[oaken]

You carry on mate :-)

[325WSM]

Primers are as much a variable component as any other in reloading and can alter velocity and trajectory and therefore accuracy quite considerably.

I have long been an advocate of using primers in the same way as powder to vary a load with great effect.

We dont choose our case because one looks shinier than another but because of the chemical composition that is most suitable for our particular load. Neither do we choose a Powder just because the local shop has it on the shelf and so with Primers - choose your primer to do the best job possible for the load you are generating.

A change of primer can in some loads require a drop of 3 grains and the difference in velocity without any increase in pressure can equally improve by 100fps. Use your primers in the same way as your powder and you will be surprised at the difference your loads will provide.

Here is a basic heat chart - from top to bottom drop about 5-6% in powder and work from there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/mry716/Shooting%20-%20other/primerheatchart.jpg

Use it as a guide and add in your own primers when you have assessed them. eg, the Prvi Partizan Primers although burning approximately as hot as the Winchester range do because of their different construction not seem to require a reduction in powder when changing from say Remington. Try for yourself and let us all know your test results as it will expand the above chart considerably.

Use of Magnum primers is normally reserved for the Ball Powders but I am finding I can use them to great effect in the shorter stumpier cases such as the WSM and WSSM range of cartridges. Logically this should also be valid for the Benchrest PPC cartridges.

The same is true for the H4831 SC powder in 243 - A Federal Magnum primer seems to provide anything up to 120 fps higher velocities than standard primers yet seemingly without additional pressure.
BUT
do drop the powder weight and build up again.

Please remember to drop powder weights when changing primers and do also remember that with hot summer weather you need to reconsider all those max loads and take out a little powder.

A 10 degree rise in temp requires a 5% decrease in powder. If we are going to get such varied weather in coming years it may be best to have a min, intermediate and max load to use dependant on weather temperature.

[325WSM]

Some pages worth a read.................

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...aseinspect.cfm

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com...brass-is-made/

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com...-and-pressure/

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com...in-your-cases/

http://3c-enterprises.atfreeweb.com/photos.html

http://freedomsight.net/?p=2109


http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm

[325WSM]

PRIMERS AND PRESSURE

 

by James Calhoon (First Printed in Varmint Hunter Magazine, October, 1995)

In the course of talking to many shooters, it has become clear to me that the manufacturers of primers have done a less than adequate job of educating reloaders on the application of their primers. Everybody seems to realize that some primers are "hotter" than others and some seem to shoot better for them than others, but few reloaders know that primers have different pressure tolerances.

I ran into this problem myself when loading a 223 to the maximum. The primer I was using was piercing before the case began expanding at the head or reaching maximum pressure. How do you check maximum pressure without a laboratory pressure gun, you ask? To check maximum pressure on a given powder / bullet combination, measure the rim of the cartridge (at a specific point each time of the measurement) before and after firing. Cases don’t have to be new, just measured before and after firing.

Discovering Maximum Load By Measuring Case Head Expansion

 

This method works on bolt actions, but use with caution on falling blocks,like the Ruger #1, as there is no case head protruding from the barrel. In the falling block, the case is fully supported, allowing little expansion in extreme loads. When measuring the case head, readings must be accurately done in ten thousandths of an inch (.0001"). Don’t be afraid to check and double check your readings. If the case head grows more than .0001", you are overloading (going beyond the brass yield point) and eventually primer pockets will loosen up. A blade mike is nice, but a regular 0 - 1 mike in .0001" graduation is fine for measuring the rim. When using a blade mike, measure just above the extractor groove, in the same location every time. Use a scribed line as a marker. Take your time measuring. Do it twice to be sure, as .0001" is not much!

The trick to getting maximum, or at least knowing what maximum is, on your powder / bullet combination, is to reach maximum pressure (going beyond the elastic limit of the metal by only .0001" or .0002") and just back off 3 to 5%. It is best to work up loads in the hottest weather you’ll encounter while shooting. Hot weather means higher pressures (especially in the 90 degr. + temperatures). Be careful to work up in small increments when working with small cases, especially in 17’s. As a safety precaution, bolt action rifles should have liberal gas ports in their bolts, like the 98 Mauser or 77 Ruger. (See page 78 in the July 1992 issue of The Varmint Hunter Magazine on how to modify the 700 Remington for overload gas relief or see Gas Off Cure here.) Wear safety glasses.

When working with maximum loads, keep the bullet off the lands by at least .020". Pressures can really go sky high if the bullet is touching the rifling lands. This is especially the case with the "magnum" cases such as the 17 Rem, 22-250, etc. Roy Weatherby was a pioneer in this area. His big magnums incorporated free bore to remove the "pressure spikes".

Back to the main topic: pressure tolerance. I was getting primer piercing before I reached case overloading. I don’t know what prompted me to try CCI 450’s instead of the 400’s which I had been using, but I did. Presto! No more piercing! Interesting!? A primer that has a hotter ignition and yet withstands more pressure! That’s when I decided that it was time to do a dissection of all primers concerned. The chart above shows my results.

 

 

By studying the numbers, one can readily see which primers in the small rifle sections will withstand heavy loads. Primer cup diameters are all similar and appear to follow a specification, but check out the cup thickness in the small rifle primers (Dimension "A"). It is obvious that the thicker cups will withstand more pressure. Large rifle primers all appear to have the same cup thickness, no matter what the type. (As a note of interest, small pistol primers are .017" thick and large pistol primers are .020" thick.)

If you are shooting a 22 Cooper, Hornet, or a Bee, the .020" cup will perform admirably. But try using the .020" cup in a 17 Remington and you’ll pierce primers, even with moderate loads.

Considering that cup thickness varies in the small rifle primers, it is obvious that primer "flatness" cannot solely be used as a pressure indicator.

 

FOR CHART - which will not load on to this site (by me anyway) please email me at mry716@hotmail.com

 

Another factor which determines the strength of a primer cup is the work hardened state of the brass used to make the primer cup. They are made with cartridge brass (70% copper, 30% zinc), which can vary from 46,000 psi, soft, to 76,000 psi tensile strength when fully hardened. Manufacturers specify to their brass suppliers the hardness of brass desired. I was not able to test primer hardness, but an educated guess says that a primer manufacturer would choose a harder brass in order to keep material thickness down and reduce costs.

I have not run into primer piercing with large rifle primers. They are all the same thickness and therefore are not subject to the same misapplication problems. Exceptions can be created if too fast a powder is used in a magnum type case. The

22 Cheetah is a primer piercer with fast powders as Barry and I found out!

 

What does all this mean to the reloader?

- Cases that utilize small rifle primers and operate at moderate pressures(40,000 psi) should use CCI 400, Federal 200, Rem 6 1/2, or Win SR. Such cases include 22 CCM, 22 Hornet and the 218 Bee. These primers are also used in heavy handguns such as the 9mm., 357, etc. Other cases that use the small rifle primer can use the above primers only if moderate loads are used. Keep to the lower end of reloading recommendations.

- Cases that utilize Small Rifle primers and operate at higher pressures (55,000 psi) should use CCI 450, CCI BR4, Fed 205 and Rem 7 1/2.

- With large rifle primers all being the same thickness, choose a primer that makes the most accurate group, is the shiniest, cheapest or whatever, as they all have similar pressure capabilities.

Hope this clears up some primer confusion. If you wnat more information about primers, priming compounds, or even how to make primers, the NRA sells an excellent book called "Ammunition Making" by George Frost . This book tells it like it is in the ammo making industry.

[kent]

Change any component or even go to a new tub of powder and I work the load up again. I did the reverse of this during the last period of shortages, switched from fedral to cci, all was good and I ended up on same load but there are never any garantees

[achosenman]

I agree primers can make or break a load. I will no longer use Fed primers in small rifle, they are soft. I always do a primer test among the various primers I have, as a fine tune. I find I tend to gravitate to CCI450's or CCI BR4. Some will improve load ES and group size by as much as 50% with a simple primer change. Some primers are interchangeable. I had a Fed let go at the shoulder radius on my 223 at well below max pressure. Neil M bushed the firing pin and reworked the bolt face so that fixed that problem.

 

I knew about the Feds being soft from the many articles I've seen over the years. Some good info in the following link. http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php The case head expansion theory is one I tried. However it has since been debunked by others with vastly more knowledge than me. Personally I found it to be a waste of time. There are too many variables at play and you will get the expansion he talks about on safe loads in factory ammo in some chambers.

 

If you use a K&M primer tool you will also realise that some primer manufacturer dimension tolerances are better than others. The worst for me is Remington. They are complete tat AFAIC. From my experience the best seems to be CCI.

 

As for reading primers as a tell tale? Factory Remington rifles have a sloppy firing pin hole and will crater at well below max load. The QL help file has a very good section on excessive pressure signs including photographs. The one thing that becomes very clear is that reading the primer after firing is unreliable at best. It has some photo's of normal looking primers on 308 loads that were producing a measured 78,000psi!! If you know your rifle and how thing look, it's better than nothing. It's a very rough guide at best and should not be used as a sole indicator of pressure.

 

Confused...I am.

 

ATB