1ST OR 2ND FOCAL PLANE

[SteveW]

Hi guys, being a UK Varminting virgin not sure if you have already covered this subject ?

But would grately appreciate ur opinions/advice/experiences. I'm going to purchase new Schmit & bender PMII, was going for 2nd focal plane, but now having doubts !!! It'll be mainly used at night with either NV or lamp, also occassionally indulge in a bit long range day time sniping

cheers Steve

PS How do I get to download pictures to the site ???? Not only am I a UKV virgin but also a computer virgin. (GO GENTLE ON ME)

Cheers

[brown dog]

Personally: 1st -don't even consider 2nd.

 

There used to be an excellent article at USOptics explaining the difference....can't find it now.

 

Off the top of my head:

 

1st FFP: Reticle subtensions constant at all power settings. Zero absolutely physically cannot wander as power setting is changed.

 

The reverse is true of 2FFP

 

The only argument for 2nd is 'it covers less of the target at high power settings' ...easily solved by getting a fine FFP reticle (such as S&B P4 Fine)

 

[duey]

2 nd for me every time

 

if you go looking for bunnies or crows at 600yds you wont be able to see them behinde the reticule posts

 

Ian

[Ronin]

This is my opinion

 

I have scopes in both focal planes, I use the 2nd FP scopes for deer and vermin control, I dont range with them and have yet to experience a wandering zero although I know it does happen - sometimes.

 

The 1st FP scopes are both S&B PM11 with fine reticules, they can be used to ranging (they are mil dots) at any power and although the reticule does "appear" to get bigger or cover more of the target are when zoomed in - in actual fact it doesnt, the image size is increased only.

 

Small targets are easily seen even with FFP scope so long as the reticule is fine..

 

Had I the funds, I would swap all my scopes to FFP......

[ds1]

If you are set on a S&B, the 5-25x56 PMII with P4 Fine (First Focal Plane) is about the best of breed.

 

If not using your reticule to range, use for hold overs, or moving targets then 2nd FP or 1st FP is up to you. 2nd FP scopes can change point of impact through the magnification range - somewhere up to about 1/2 moa (due to mechanical tolerances in the zoom / erector cell).

 

If you can try before you buy, I would have a good look at Zeiss/ Hensold - who do both 1FP and 2FP scopes. The 4-16x50 Hensoldt 1st FP scope is more compact than the same 4-16 S&B scope - if size matters. US Optics - considering the exchange rate are a very good buy if you buy direct (dont buy in the uk) and as BD says their web site is well worth a read.

 

Hope it helps,

 

David.

[SteveW]

If you are set on a S&B, the 5-25x56 PMII with P4 Fine (First Focal Plane) is about the best of breed.

 

If not using your reticule to range, use for hold overs, or moving targets then 2nd FP or 1st FP is up to you. 2nd FP scopes can change point of impact through the magnification range - somewhere up to about 1/2 moa (due to mechanical tolerances in the zoom / erector cell).

 

If you can try before you buy, I would have a good look at Zeiss/ Hensold - who do both 1FP and 2FP scopes. The 4-16x50 Hensoldt 1st FP scope is more compact than the same 4-16 S&B scope - if size matters. US Optics - considering the exchange rate are a very good buy if you buy direct (dont buy in the uk) and as BD says their web site is well worth a read.

 

Hope it helps,

 

David.

Cheers David, Brown Dog,Ronin and Ian

Plenty of food for thought !!! Do u really get that much point of impact change even with a quality scope like the Schmidt's, I thought about the US Optics, but as u say dont want to pay UK importers inflated mark up's !! Plus the wait for them !!

Cheers All

[Ronin]

USO are running on 3 - 4 month bulid times at the moment, if you buy now it may be less, fter the SHOT Show well it could be 6months.

 

At the current xch rate they are a good alternative for S&B, they are bombproof, BUT is the glass as good as the Euro scopes???

 

Only a question the end user user can answer.

 

I like both, but would go for S&B if pushed.

 

USO have better choice of reticules, the George Gardner (GAP) designed ret would be my choice in red illumiated...

[Vermincinerator]

Correct me if i am wrong, but is not the top selling S&B the new second focal plane scope.

The first focal plane is popular with tactical rifle shooters but varmint hunters prefer second focal plane.

 

Ian.

[brown dog]

Correct me if i am wrong, but is not the top selling S&B the new second focal plane scope.

 

 

 

No idea; but if it is, [to accompanying background banjo music] that'll reflect the education levels of our American cousins.

[ds1]

I think I will do a bit more rambling, in no particular order.

 

Whatever scope, it does make sense to get the turret units and reticule in the same units - 1/4 moa turret adjustments = moa type reticule or mil /cm turrets = mil based reticule.

 

S&B 5-25x56PMII scopes unless someone has one in stock (good luck finding a P4 fine 1st FFPin stock, you will be lucky to get one within a year now the MOD is putting them on the AI 338`s).

 

Lit reticule - pros abnd cons S&B has only the centre cross lit, USO has the whole reticule lit. Brown Dog thinks they are all chocolate fireguards anyway.

 

About 10 years ago I tested a mates USO ST10 (basic model fixed 10x42 scope against my 4-16x50 S&B PMII) - the S&B maybe had slightly better glass, but took me a week to make my mind up.

 

USO turret adjustment system - a top screw and plate, Zeiss looks similar on the target models is a lot better than the dorky 2 tiny grub screws S&B use - guess who they slipped for in a international competition last year - nothing worse than pissing in your own cornflakes. On the positive side the S&B turret had a Zero stop and you can not get lost with it.

 

Last week a Leupold VXIII arrived - I bought it here on the site, great - the clicks are more positive than S&B PMII`s - 4 of them I`ve had.

 

If you are going to go down the S&B route - I would stick to that line of scopes on all rifles, the elevation and windage turrets turn in the opposite direction to nearly every other bugger (incluing Leupold, Swarovski, Meopta). Not sure which way Zeiss go now.

 

Jsut more ramblings - and as it happens I am for the moment changing my religion from S&B to USO. If it works out then I can see my last S&B PMII being traded for a USO sn3.

 

David.

[Wsm]

Correct me if i am wrong, but is not the top selling S&B the new second focal plane scope.

The first focal plane is popular with tactical rifle shooters but varmint hunters prefer second focal plane.

 

Ian.

 

Spot on Ian

 

Probably about 80% of folks at the moment ask for "the scope where the crosshairs don`t get massive" so 2nd it is

[brown dog]

People who frame their question as:

 

"the scope where the crosshairs don`t get massive"

 

are clearly making educated and well-informed technical decisions on their choice of optic.

[baldie]

No idea; but if it is, [to accompanying background banjo music] that'll reflect the education levels of our American cousins.

 

Thats just rude. I,d better whistle up the old coonhound then, because i,ve got one.The crosshairs dont look like tree trunks, and i thank s+b for FINALLY realising that people shoot at other objects apart from men and deer with their scopes. Mines 2nd fp and it works perfectly, and the zero doesn,t change up or down the mag range....thats a sign of a poor quality , cheap scope....which is hardly s+b.

The only people who need mildot, are snipers, or people using them in sniper type comps...anyone ever tried to "mildot" a rabbit Waste of time in my opinion, you either need to be a mathematical genius, or you need a milldot mater, calculator or palm pilot too.A laser rangefinder is a hell of a lot faster, and usually a lot more accurate.Just my opinion of course.

[Ronin]

As always, two distinct camps on this one.

 

FFP is great and useful as backup when the batteries fail in the LRF, deer can be ranged quite effectively with mil dot rets.

 

PM11 FFP P4 Fine scopes are out there, if you look and are persuasive when you do locate one

 

 

 

The last time I bought one, (July last year) it took about 15 minutes and three phone calls to source one in the UK...

[baldie]

I believe the 2ndfp model can be used to "mildot" anyway, it just has to be on a particular magnification, which i think is 22? i didn,t take a lot of notice, because i dont use it, but that means you can have the best of both worlds, if you wish.

[brown dog]

The only people who need mildot, are snipers, or people using them in sniper type comps...anyone ever tried to "mildot" a rabbit Waste of time in my opinion, you either need to be a mathematical genius, or you need a milldot mater, calculator or palm pilot too.A laser rangefinder is a hell of a lot faster, and usually a lot more accurate.Just my opinion of course.

 

I'm with you on lasers.

 

I don't however agree that the primary use/ justification for mil dots/hashes is range finding. It was once (pre cheap LRFs). It isn't now.

 

What reticle do you have in 2nd FP? Presumably it's mil dot or mil hashed? ...but can only be used for angular subtension measurement at one power setting? Well, to my mind the primary reason for using mil dots/hashes is that they match your elevation / windage adjustments and you can accurately measure the displacement of your POI from your POA and adjust exactly onto target....at any power setting. :

 

eg bullet strikes left due to wind ...how far left?....measure with reticle: 0.6mils.........adjust 6 clicks right....on.

 

 

The 'problem' in marketing FFP scopes is that the bulk of the population don't understand angular subtension or the concept of the mil.....the "it gets bigger" level of understanding being a perfect example....in angular subtension terms FFP actually stays the same; and it is the 2FP that 'gets bigger' on lower power settings.

 

and, of course, if individuals only shoot at maximum magnification the argument is rendered irrelevant....but then they may as well buy a fixed power scope

[Redfox]

Just my 2 pennorth ( well nearly everyon else has! )

2nd fp is ok for things like rabbits etc, I agree but for everything else 1st fp takes the biscuit, I and am sure most others have not the time to start winding mag up and down before deciding where to shoot and then shooting!

The secret is picking the right reticle as well as scope, some have more choice than others, but S&B will fit other reticles than std for a small extra cost, you only have to ask and then of course wait, they have massive military contracts for both US and UK military, so we have to wait much longer for our stuff, particularly if special.

They have geared up considerably but will not compromise quality, which adds time.

For what you want I would not go either PM11 5-25 or higher, I would thoroughly recommend the 4-16 x 50 long range scope/ precision hunter with the no 9 reticle or the single dot, or pay a few bob more and have special reticle ( etched on glass, whatever coverage you want )mine covers up 1.6mm at 100yds in the centre of the plex, had it 9yrs now and it allows shots out to 400yds easily and is considerably cheaper to buy than the pm11 or USO offerings.

One thing no one mentions is that with the Schmidt scopes their turret has a tell tale that allows return to true zero ( dead centre) of scope and back to previous settings. I dont know of another make that has a working system to do this ( its schmidts patent).

I have 9various of them inc three 4-16s so I am putting money where mouth is

Redfox

[Alycidon]

I think I will do a bit more rambling, in no particular order.

 

Whatever scope, it does make sense to get the turret units and reticule in the same units - 1/4 moa turret adjustments = moa type reticule or mil /cm turrets = mil based reticule.

 

S&B 5-25x56PMII scopes unless someone has one in stock (good luck finding a P4 fine 1st FFPin stock, you will be lucky to get one within a year now the MOD is putting them on the AI 338`s).

 

Lit reticule - pros abnd cons S&B has only the centre cross lit, USO has the whole reticule lit. Brown Dog thinks they are all chocolate fireguards anyway.

 

About 10 years ago I tested a mates USO ST10 (basic model fixed 10x42 scope against my 4-16x50 S&B PMII) - the S&B maybe had slightly better glass, but took me a week to make my mind up.

 

USO turret adjustment system - a top screw and plate, Zeiss looks similar on the target models is a lot better than the dorky 2 tiny grub screws S&B use - guess who they slipped for in a international competition last year - nothing worse than pissing in your own cornflakes. On the positive side the S&B turret had a Zero stop and you can not get lost with it.

 

Last week a Leupold VXIII arrived - I bought it here on the site, great - the clicks are more positive than S&B PMII`s - 4 of them I`ve had.

 

If you are going to go down the S&B route - I would stick to that line of scopes on all rifles, the elevation and windage turrets turn in the opposite direction to nearly every other bugger (incluing Leupold, Swarovski, Meopta). Not sure which way Zeiss go now.

 

Jsut more ramblings - and as it happens I am for the moment changing my religion from S&B to USO. If it works out then I can see my last S&B PMII being traded for a USO sn3.

 

David.

 

 

I have just had a play on the US Optics site, you certainly seem to get a lot of scope for the money dont you.

 

A

[ds1]

Steveie, you mention use of NV with the S&B. For what its worth Hensoldt NSV 80 is or was on a 3-12x50 PMII the way to go. Tried Simrad, I think a KN series and moved POI about 6cm at 100m - its reflector based. I`m now not up on anything more current. Cost, including mounting and mount height etc can complicate things. Maybe cheaper in the long run would be to pick a maxi or midi Kite up. It may have some influence on your choice if the scope is just for day use and lamping.

 

David