Vortex challenge

[Hatzi]

I'd love to see a comp like this in the UK too.

 

WMS has become far too commercial (subsitiute commercial for expensive ) for events like this as some members found out when trying to organise a repeat of the UKV golf event. It's great facility but by the time you've paid to travel, stay and shoot it costs a fortune.

 

Finding suitable land with an amenable landowner is easier said than done as me and Rup are finding.

 

Hence why the only facility offering this kind of shooting has to charge a reasonable price, all the work put in and targets, insurance and fees have to be covered.

 

This is probably why the land owner rides around on a motorbike and not in his Range Rover when he pays a visit?

[bluegreen]

Hence why the only facility offering this kind of shooting has to charge a reasonable price, all the work put in and targets, insurance and fees have to be covered.

 

This is probably why the land owner rides around on a motorbike and not in his Range Rover when he pays a visit?

 

Hatzi, think the pricing problem is that they have no discount for "bulk" if you go as 15 it costs about the same per person as going as a 3 - so no point in going as a 15 from the personal cost point of view infact you could say that you'll end up getting less shooting per person for the same money per person Also sticks in the throat to be giving someone 2 grand for 15 people when they've done the same or less work than they would have done for 400 quid with 3 people on the same ground on the same day. Weird price plan -disencourage group attendance, take less money per day:wacko:, must make sense in the rain and fog

[Hatzi]

To run any sort of Vortex style shoot would involve several firing position and from what im led to believe, many of them are within each others safety arcs so cannot be shot simultaneously at WMS?

[AEP]

Hatzi,

 

The layout of WMS would allow two stages at one time (which is enough).

 

But as pointed out WMS is not open to basic business sense and so precludes the location for any serious comps.

 

I'm struggling to understand his business model, sure as hell beats anything I've seen from the Russians or Chinese

 

brgds AEP

[brown dog]

To run any sort of Vortex style shoot would involve several firing position and from what im led to believe, many of them are within each others safety arcs so cannot be shot simultaneously at WMS?

 

Chris, we ran a great fun competition up there early last year http://ukvarminting.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11084&st=0

 

We've enough "I'm better when I move" types on here to ensure that a great COF can be (and was) created.

 

I shelved a re-run as (as a couple of people have already pointed out) Andrew's pricing structure was not wildly conducive to group attendance; but if this thread is pointing to an appetite for a sequel would one of the regulars here who attended last year's like to drop Andrew a line and see if there's any change to his group pricing?

 

As regards the fire and movement piece, I think that will relate to the cost of the range day - I know that if I'm stumping up £100 for a day, I don't want to spend 90% of that day speed-marching and 10% shooting ; I'll want to be 90% shooting.

 

It's the shooting element that needs to be crazy challenging and 'non-standard'; and you don't really get that by just adding in a 2km uphill run between each stage.

[brown dog]

The running round bit is 'naff' in the first degeree , unless you want to run around going 'hut-hut-hut' etc. (come on please!!!) And while we're at forget Ghillie crawls - enjoyable but take up a whole morning as not many, if an, of us are 'snipers' then time is better spend getting to expend some challenging rounds.

 

If you have a location and want to put something together I can get hold of typical courses of fire for you to work from or use as a basis - why have courses of fire you ask -if you do not have a plan or competiton set out then the day degenerates into 'plinking'.

 

One word or warning - if you start down this route you will never enjoy square on targets where only the wind changes ever again

 

Just read that - yup, that was what I was trying to say

[Ronin]

We could have a similar course of fire to last years comp with the addition of a few stress tests on one or two of the stages, which people can opt out of?

 

 

 

Just a thought.

[brown dog]

We could have a similar course of fire to last years comp with the addition of a few stress tests on one or two of the stages,

 

What about you doing the legendary ronin laugh whilst people shoot?

 

 

Lest my earlier point gets lost next to my unecessary personal attack

if this thread is pointing to an appetite for a sequel would one of the regulars here who attended last year's like to drop Andrew a line and see if there's any change to his group pricing?

[Scotch_egg]

I like the course of fire being told to you before the event.

 

Hey BD......

 

 

 

I am still in process of arranging a steel shoot, this has been mentioned to BD.

 

I need to fund my targets yet keep it affordable. As long as your FC has the condition for field use on ground approved by the chief constable for your calibre or below.

 

If we could share targets at different locations I could see it being easiier to arrange events.

[terryh]

Scotch Egg

 

The couse of fire would not be published

 

What would be given is round count, the range of distances to be expected and shooting positions encountered etc. there are no sighters, pehaps a few rounds at 100 yards then straight in.

 

The couser of fire would be designed within the capabilities of a well set up basic 308 i.e. most shots less than 800m and no distances ending in '00 m'

 

The emphasis is on shooter and rifle capabilities not just who's got the deepest pockets. Someone with a sorted Rem 700 and half decent scope who knows his stuff is in with a chance. Basically doon't turn up to a gun fight with a knife! lol

 

Cheers Terry

[c18rch]

Hence why the only facility offering this kind of shooting has to charge a reasonable price, all the work put in and targets, insurance and fees have to be covered.

 

This is probably why the land owner rides around on a motorbike and not in his Range Rover when he pays a visit?

 

I know why he charges what he does but the point I was trying to make (and been more eloquently put by other on here) is that when 5 of us went we paid £90 each 2 years ago. There was Andrew and his mate so double the wages and he did help with coaching and spotting on the day where needed. Total earnings £450 minus wages x2 and rent.

 

When we did the UKV golf event IIRC we paid a negotiated (by BD) discounted price of £75 of which £25 went to charity but there were I think 17 of us shooting. Andrew was on his own that day and we looked after ourselves so all he had to do was check for safe backstops, walkers, cyclists etc. Total earnings £850 minus wages x1 and rent and less work for him

 

When BD asked about a re-run he said prices would be the same as normal day rates which are now £125+vat I believe so he would be making £2550 for the same numbers. If 5 people go (min is 3) he would make £750. Even if he said its £1000 for the day for a big group he would be making more money for less work and I think everyone would happily pay £50-75 for this type of comp.

[oaken]

I am stepping up my search for a venue in wiltshire.

We need to consider how much we are prepared to pay for the day and work out how much can be paid to a landowner after expenses. Presenting a landowner with a cash figure will, i am sure, help our case. Stating that all firearms will be moderated too as noise seems to be high on the objections list.

Scotch-egg. I would gladly sub you some cash to buy a couple of gongs to use in your event, i would then have a couple of gongs to take to any other low cost event. Would a group purchase help you out here ?!?

CoF. I think Brown Dogs (and Terry) CoF from the Welsh "Golf Comp" would be a great place to start, maybe simplified a little for us pie eating civvies that don't do complicated. The zero session that counted as part of the final score was inspired :-)

Tiff, i hoped you would chip in. Your place sounds fantastic. Have you asked your FLO exactly what they do want to see on everyone's FAC to remove any doubt?

I do appreciate that "zeroing" might fall short in the circumstances, though that was all that was needed for the midWales setup, or did i miss something?

Insurance. Our individual insurance (NRA, BASC etc) will surely cover us for both HO approved ranges and shooting on private land with permission. Please correct me if I have got this wrong.

I am quite excited about where this could go if we can keep the ball rolling :-)

Rup

 

As Terry points out the painful truth - Shooting square on targets at '00 ranges just doesn't cut it any more!!!

[The_Dogge]

I'd be up for more of this sort of shooting too, not too many long distance runs and ghillie crawls please, but timed movement between positions/points within a stage (think mini rifle scaled up! ) and definately carrying all gear personally, would be good.

 

I saw a great looking one on youtube, shooting against the clock in/on/through a pickup, and even lying on a platform suspended by chains so it moved a bit, looked great fun! but nothing remotely like it happens in the UK AFAIK?

 

Put me on any list that develops, I'm better than my dismal shooting at the last WMS event honest!

[Gandy]

Have you asked your FLO exactly what they do want to see on everyone's FAC to remove any doubt?

I do appreciate that "zeroing" might fall short in the circumstances, though that was all that was needed for the midWales setup, or did i miss something?

 

When I looked into this, I was advised that (as per my FAC) the condition required should normally read along the lines of 'for zeroing over land which.....' zeroing being classed as practice over various ranges, situations etc.

 

Hope this helps.

[MOOSE]

I got as far as the first photo before deciding it's not for me.

It says in the link that you need (fitness and stamina) is that a new brand of gun or ammo ?????

[oaken]

When I looked into this, I was advised that (as per my FAC) the condition required should normally read along the lines of 'for zeroing over land which.....' zeroing being classed as practice over various ranges, situations etc.

 

Hope this helps.

Hi Gandy

Was this advice from your local Police, BASC or from Wms?

My gut feeling is that non of them would want to be pinned down to a definitive reply anyway. If the ticket implies "open" just treat it as such.

[tony]

Rup I would be up for this one and I think more people will also join in soon. I am sure/hope it will progress and if you need any help with gongs and two way radios, targets anything, dont hesitate, it would be great to see this happen.

Tony,

[Gandy]

Hi Gandy

Was this advice from your local Police, BASC or from Wms?

My gut feeling is that non of them would want to be pinned down to a definitive reply anyway. If the ticket implies "open" just treat it as such.

 

It was from an FEO abeit on an informal basis, I doubt I would obtain a formal response stating the same. Although when the advice was given is was on the baisis of me copying WMS as a business adventure and the FEO was basically saying that he wasn't interested in percieved 'lawful' activities rather than people clear in breach of liscencres.

 

Pm me if you need any more detail as this is a diluted response.

 

Gandy.

[honsu]

Hi guys if you look at Gunwerks Vimeo page you will see a video of this plus some vids on long range hunting and shooting.

 

[oaken]

 

A well thought out tactical comp is as much fun as you can have without taking your clothes off.........

 

If you have alocation and want to put something together I can get hold of typical courses of fire for you to work from or use as a basis.........

 

Yes please Terry and any advice/pointers regarding putting a really good shoot together.

I am negotiating the use of a quarry in Somerset as a venue for a tactical shoot. It looks fantastic with dramatic backdrops everywhere and a multitude of possible firing points. Only problem is the longest shot will only be 350yds. Would this put people off?

Look at this before answering

http://m.youtube.com/my_videos#/watch?v=Q5aZTqJeRtA

This is a small site so no long distances to carry kit but to take advantage of some of the firing points a degree of hardship would be involved  ;-) "think light".

Please comment......... eg. smaller targets for shorter distances or don't bother it's just not far enough or maybe shoot off a wobbly inflatable mattress.......... all suggestions gratefully received.

Rup

[6.5Grendel]

Yes please Terry and any advice/pointers regarding putting a really good shoot together.

I am negotiating the use of a quarry in Somerset as a venue for a tactical shoot. It looks fantastic with dramatic backdrops everywhere and a multitude of possible firing points. Only problem is the longest shot will only be 350yds. Would this put people off?

Look at this before answering

http://m.youtube.com/my_videos#/watch?v=Q5aZTqJeRtA

This is a small site so no long distances to carry kit but to take advantage of some of the firing points a degree of hardship would be involved ;-) "think light".

Please comment......... eg. smaller targets for shorter distances or don't bother it's just not far enough or maybe shoot off a wobbly inflatable mattress.......... all suggestions gratefully received.

Rup

Rup

I dont think 'only' 350 yds should be a barrier , the targets could reflect this , I would definately be up for this type of thing , would be ideal for people with small caliber varmint guns as well?

 

Andy

 

PS love the wobbly mattress theme

[terryh]

Rup,

 

350m is quite far enough if you are creative ( ) with your course's of fire, simple props, size/type of targets.

 

Please pm me

 

Terry

[oaken]

Been tying to think of ways to make shorter shots more challenging.

I read somewhere of a comp firing point using a suspended platform that swings with the slightest movement....... there is a tele loader on site.......

Yes the shorter ranges would make it ideal for any stalking rifle and most varminters too :-)