Catch-22

Can anyone who shoots at Kingsbury please help me out with some info. I’m a member of ODRC but I’ve never shot at Kingsbury before - this coming Saturday will be my first trip. Is the range briefing at 08.30am, ready for a 09.00am start? And is there anything I need to know about where to park, protocols over bringing kit to firing points then moving the car etc? Thanks in advance!

Thanks very much for all the photos, help and insight, really appreciate it. @Bangbangman @MichalS @Mattnall Seems there are a few good options and flexibility with powders. I was planning to use N140 and RS52 as I have plenty of these powders for use in other cals. I think I’m likely to use the 77gn TMK and/or 80gn SMK as they’re readily available. I had thought about going with a 1-7 or 1-6.5” twist and throat it for the 90gn+ bullets but i felt the faster twist will have a negative impact on barrel life and really I’d need to single load those long bullets when they’re seated optimally, which I don’t want to do. And I too agree with your point about better cals out there suited for 800m+, and plan to continue shooting my 6.5x47 at these distances, with the big .338NM for further out. 600m is likely to be the mainstay for the .223ai. Thanks again all!

I’m interested to hear from anyone with experience shooting .223 or .223AI with heavy bullets, mainly out to 600m - possibly 900m. Bullets I’m most interested to hear about include; Sierra 77gn SMK and 80gn SMK Sierra 77gn TMK Hornady 75gn ELD-M My .223AI barrels will be 26”, 1-8” twist and be for training on paper, not comps. I believe the .223AI chamber will be cut with a freebore of around 0.069”...similar to the Wylde. I’ll be using .223 Accurate Mags (AICS pattern) which should allow me to seat bullets far out enough for a 2.700” COAL, so plenty of boiler room to play with. Any experiences? Thanks!

I agree with the last two. I bet it was cut with the reamer used to chamber the barrel and it’s gotta be either; 1. Loaded length gauge, indexing off the OGive or 2. Case gauge to measure headspace against the reamer used to cut the chamber Definitely something to gently pull apart and see what’s inside. Does the previous owner know what it’s for?

The only place I’ve found to have Sinclair expander mandrels for expanding, not the oversized mandrels used for neck turning, has been Brownells UK...though they order them from the US I believe. I think 21st Century Reloading also offer expander mandrels but think they’re setup to worth with their own expander die body. Spud may have these in his inventory. Or just Google it. You can of course order from them direct. Both the Sinclair and 21st Century expander mandrels are designer to provide around .002” neck tension.

🤬😂

Open to offers

@johnnyb0_1 tried sending you a PM but you cannot accept messages - I think you need to clear out your inbox.

Ronzi, Using TRASOL and Lapua ballistics, they both suggest that from a 26” barrel, 123g scenar pushed at 2997fps, the bullet will enter the transonic realm at around 1000m. It will then go subsonic at around 1120m. Hth.

I’m definitely interested. First dibs please! Couple of questions, 1. I assume it’s boxer primed? 2. Is this one fired from commercial ammo or is this mil-surp? 3. Is the brass from one lot, or mixed lots? Any chance of a pic or two please, ideally case head and neck. Thanks!

I too use Redding Imperial Sizing wax for Full Length sizing, and the Redding dry graphite stuff for the outside and inside of necks when using an expander mandrel prior to seating.

Don’t ask me guv’ 🙈🙉🙊

N150 is a single based powder, so should be stable(ish) and won’t destroy your barrel like the double based powders can. N150 performs well with heavier bullets too...definitely give it a go!

Don’t forget Viht N140 and N150. Ive used N140 in several rifles with 120g and 123g bullets. Always a very easy powder to tune, readily available, very temp stable, clean burning and lowish energy so should be milder on barrels (see post #9 to see a powder energy chart) https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545581 N150 is used by a few people for 130g+ bullets. Couldn't get on with RS52, ES/S.D. all over the place, whereas it was single digits with N140.

Just FYI, RS60 is the same as Elcho 17 & Alliant RL17. RS62 is a single base powder...not the same.

Interesting. I know the importer too but don’t know if he’s conducted any primary research into the differences himself? All I can go on is Laurie’s informative, tireless and generous research. Quoting Target Shooter Magazine; http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=2662 “...The cardboard ‘outer’ marked with the useful factory product code had been ditched by the retailer unfortunately but I’m pretty sure this is the Murom KVB-223M, a thick cup, tough ‘magnum’ model that is slightly ‘hotter’ than the older KVB-5,56M ‘magnum’. Murom KVB-223M 2838 fps average MV; 15 fps E.S.; 3.8 fps SD. An excellent result that betters that of the previous test ‘winner’, the CBC Magtech model. The three groups averaged just over the half-inch, so a good result here too. The test was run exactly as for the others, so the mid-string restart shot was examined and, yet again, (the 10th occurrence) it fell below the rest of the spread – by 4 fps this time. Knocking that reading off and redoing the calculations gives a revised: 2838 fps average MV; 11 fps E.S.; 3.3 fps S.D” Compare the above to his results to the standard Murom KVB-223; 2,815 fps average MV; 18 fps E.S.; 5 fps S.D.” So it does appear that KVB-223M is indeed ‘hotter’ than the regular KVB-223, in addition to having a thicker cup. BUT...my point in this instance is more that the primer makeup itself may not be suitable for this given cartridge (size, dimensions) with the given powder used. I don’t know, it might be the size of kernel, the type of powder used, whether the kernels were compressed or given the shape of the case internals, was there too little (or too much) air space in there to reliably ignite? Dunno...a lot of variables. I would still suggest trying a different primer, regardless of whether it’s a magnum or not, just a change might fair better with the given powder. Worth a try to see?!?

I shoot a 6.5x47 in my Defiance Mutant XL switch barrel action. Admittedly I specified the .308 bolt came with a small firing pin hole & pin, but I don’t think that’s your issue. I use Murom KVB-223 MAGNUM... not the standard 223 ‘mild’ version. The only issue I’ve had was a couple of delayed ignition rounds when I was conducting an OCW with RS52. For some reason, I had a few rounds that went ‘click, pop...wait...BANG’. I’ve never had any issues with any other powder, before or since (used N140, VARGET, RS62 in 6.5x47 guise) and (RAMSHOT Magnum, RS80 in .338NM). I would suggest it is either the primer (not being ‘hot’ enough - I believe Laurie’s testing showed the Murom 223 being both mild and having a thin cup) or its the powder, or that particular primer isn’t best suited to that particular powder, as I think was the case when I tried KVB-223M with RS52.

Weekend bump.

Why not buy a second hand AI? A few knocking about, mostly AT...same action as the AX...only difference is the chassis/stock. Some even with aftermarket barrels (6.5x47, 6.5 Creed etc). Why not buy one and the price difference you’ll save on a new one will allow you to buy a new barrel in whatever calibre you want...for the same price as a new AI in .308. It’ll save you around £900 I reckon! AI AX .308 = £4,600 or AI AT .308 = £3,800 custom barrel = £800 or a second hand AT with .308 barrel = £2,800 or second hand AT with custom barrel = £3,000ish AI’s just don’t wear out (action wise), so a second-hand isn’t anything to be worried about. Some options already up for sale here: http://ukvarminting.com/topic/44671-accuracy-international-aw-65-x-47-for-sale/ AT in .308: http://ukvarminting.com/topic/46985-accuracy-international-at-308-for-sale/ Going the route you’re originally thinking is gonna be costly...money that could otherwise go on thousands of bullets, primers and kilos of powder. Just a thought.

SOLD!

My father once had an Isuzu Trooper for lugging round work tools. I LOVED that thing, never failed to do the job. Good luck with the sale!

Terry N140 has been brilliant for me with 120g and 123g bullets in several rifles, always consistently good and easy to tune. But I’ve found N140 to be just a tad fast for 130g+ bullets. Velocities will be a bit on the low side whilst pressure rapidly builds. Personally I’d try something slightly slower to maximise the velocity gain whilst keeping pressures lower. I liked RS62 (Accurate loads and low pressure signs) and I’ve head good things about others using N150. Just my humble experiences & observations of course.

The above unfortunately doesn’t seem to influence Landmark/MOD’s decision not to permit use of F Range at Sennybridge. Fixed firing points (trenches) firing on known , marked and fixed (tanks) and reactive targets out to 1300m. No movement or transition on the range with loaded weapons are permitted. Shame...it’s a brilliant range to shoot on ☹️

Be mindful of N150 in extreme temps as it can be a little temp sensitive and suddenly spike pressures. I’ve used Lovex SO70 in a previous rifle (6.5x47, 123g scenars) and simply couldn’t get good velocity, even from a fully compressed case. Accuracy was good but velocity was about 250fps slower than say N140 or Varget. SO70 gave me around 2650fps from a 24” barrel. I never tried it with heavier bullets (140g+). Doing so might produce better velocity. But I suspect SO70 has a very low energy rating, possibly around 3500kj.

Interesting Laurie. The thing that got me scratching my head was the fact that Alliant seem to use the AR Comp data sheet also for Rel 15, 16, 19, 22, 23 and 25. Either the makeup of the powders is the same (which I can’t believe is true...surely some powders will have different % of Nitroglycerin) or Alliant haven’t been bothered to make individual data sheets.